Upgrade Source/ Root/ Origin in Maou Gakuin to type 1 concept, Again Pt. 2

[Dog3352]

@Dog3352 What do you think reality means? There's only one definition for reality when it comes to the context of conceptual hax.

I will try to explain this in simpler terms. Feel free to ask if there is anything confusing.

Think of "all of reality" (as in, literally everything, on any possible level) as a giant set. Now think of any particular element of reality (such as a person) as a small subset of that set. If reality is one massive circle, a person is a smaller circle contained inside that giant circle.

To qualify for Type 2, that concept must abstractly define that smaller circle such that, if the concept did not exist, the smaller circle would entirely ease to exist within the larger circle. The concept is so inexorably tied to everything related to the tangible existence of that person that, should the concept disappear, the tangible existence in all forms would too.

This is what "all reality within their area of influence" on the CM page refers to. Not necessarily the whole of reality, but the whole of that subset of reality - the "area of influence" for the concept.

In the case of sources, the "area of influence" is the person whom the source conceptualizes. So, if the source was a Type 2 Concept, removing the source would mean all elements of the subset that defines "the person" in all of reality would disappear with it. The subset of reality that contains all tangible aspects of their existence in all forms would disappear; the smaller circle would no longer exist within the larger circle.

The reason the provided evidence does not qualify for Type 2 is because it has not thoroughly proven this. It gets close enough to proving it that, as I've mentioned before, I'd be willing to hear out more quotes if they can be provided. But the exact influence the source has over the existence of the person is too vague within the given sources to prove that this truly applies to "all of reality within its area of influence" - for example, it hasn't been proven that the past existence of the person (which would be considered a part of "all of reality within its area of influence") is erased when the source is, meaning we do not know whether it has total precedence over the subset. Ergo, it only qualifies for Type 3 under the given evidence.

What about this? Stop forcing your view of the meaning of reality into CM as if it were fact, Dark has already explained that reality is what the concept governs, not reality itself.

 

[Dog3352]

Is there no way to ask for Dark's help on this CRT? It's getting tiring.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Snip.

It is a memory of a very distant beginning--

It was the original creation of this world, the billions of times it has been repeated.
[...]
'There are not enough bereaved voices to tell all. My sweet child, to you, my failures. I must tell you of the end of the world of Elenesia.'

The world of true white is melting away.

It was like snow, gentle and soft.

Soon, behind the pure white world, a desolate land appeared.

Ravaged towns and villages, dry seas, withered forests, and crumbling mountains.

The end of the world, where there is no sign of life, is thrust before the girl's eyes.
[...]
My dear child. Please listen. This is the history of the world that we, the Gods of Creation, have repeated. A fairy tale of the gods passed down from mother to daughter, from generation to generation.

The silver-haired girl listens with a bird's eye view of the desolate world.

She listens to her mother's voice, which has long since disappeared.

Elenesia, the creator goddess, created the world. A world full of greenery, rich and beautiful. Various kinds of life lived there. In order to stabilize the world, we must maintain the consistency of order. Especially if destruction and creation are not equal, the world will not circulate, and the root will fall outside the framework of reincarnation.

The barren world is sprinkled with faint lights.

It must be the light of the life that has ended, the light of roots.

I kept order. I have tried hard to maintain the alignment of destruction and creation. But in the world of Elenesia, the seeds of conflict did not cease. People continued to fight, and little by little the world began to perish. The end result is what you see now.

Constant conflict and people destroying each other is causing reality to be destroyed.
Individual sources are still individual fire dew. The loss of fire dew or sources causes the destruction of the world. The world is dependent on fire dew as it is what governs Order.
Fire Dew is able to exist outside the world even after its destruction.

"The existence of the Conformist strengthens the world's fire dew and brings a strong force to the order. One of the seeds of world will possessed by the gods will sprout, and the existence that can be called the will of the world, the World Chief God, will be born."

The scan where a single conformist existence strengthening the order and fire dew proves affecting source affecting fire dew. If that conformist doesn't exists in the reality then that world order and fire dew will be less world becomes weak. It's clear cut.

The conformist existence isn't depended on that reality though. He can just move out and Live in another reality. Ronzcrunz lives Seventh Elenesia it's not even his own Reality/world. There are many people from different worlds lives in there.

Which shows world needs conformist existence meanwhile conformist doesn't need world. It's literally what it means to be independent from the reality they govern.

Creator God existed before World she has Source too which shows source came before even other orders came. Yeah at this point you are ignoring that's all.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Dog3352 who's dark, you wanna elaborate on who this is? Also you literally quoted a line where they said "in all of reality" while saying it's not in reality, can you even get your argument straight?

@EldemadeDityjon Yeah the creator god who governs order, is apparently the same thing as someone who's a normal person who just has their own concept. Right, this totally proves everything.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

@EldemadeDityjon Yeah the creator god who governs order, is apparently the same thing as someone who's a normal person who just has their own concept. Right, this totally proves everything.

Don't see a refute from your end.

 

[Theglassman12]

Good to know you haven't bothered refuting my point, thanks for the concession.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Good to know you haven't bothered refuting my point, thanks for the concession.

Above scan literally refutes whatever you Claimed. If you still want to be Ignorant sure. We would just get other staff input that's all as how standard states.

 

[Dog3352]

@Dog3352 who's dark, you wanna elaborate on who this is? Also you literally quoted a line where they said "in all of reality" while saying it's not in reality, can you even get your argument straight?

"all reality" is what he is talking about, what the concept governs (all reality = what the concept governs = area of influence of the concept = objects the concept governs = all elements and bla bla bla)

that's why he says: "removing the source would mean all elements of the subset that defines "the person" in all of reality would disappear with it"

@DarkGrath

 

[Reiner04]

Okay I was slept, Actually, after a bit of here and there over trying to get over if things governing single object falls under Type 2 or 3, I got that @Dog3352 was indeed spitting some faxes till now we all were ignoring. Actually governing reality is that they have to be Universal concept, where no matter how many objects get created or copied, they must follow same concept in case of related. That's all I wanted to say.

 

[Dog3352]

Okay I was slept, Actually, after a bit of here and there over trying to get over if things governing single object falls under Type 2 or 3, I got that @Dog3352 was indeed spitting some faxes till now we all were ignoring. Actually governing reality is that they have to be Universal concept, where no matter how many objects get created or copied, they must follow same concept in case of related. That's all I wanted to say.

 

[GrathOfLux]

who's dark, you wanna elaborate on who this is?

I am the "Dark" Dog3352 is referring to. I was involved in a previous thread regarding this topic, and explained the distinctions between different types of Concept Manipulation in a post on one of those threads, so Dog3352 has been referring to my explanation in a few posts here.

Regarding this thread itself - while I have given this thread one long look through by now, I may need a bit longer to give a cohesive perspective on it.

One big concern that sits at the cornerstone of this thread, and one which I don't consider clear-cut at this point in time, is how similar Sources and Fire Dew are. They are both very clearly connected (as several sources refer to Fire Dew and Sources being the same thing, with the two terms being used interchangeably), but they also are clearly not the exact same thing (in reference to the quotes suggesting that Sources can "become" Fire Dew, suggesting there is a distinction). I've not seen enough acknowledgement of just how odd this contradiction in dialogue is.

I will need longer to sort through and evaluate the evidence to understand how these two facts can coexist, as depending on what the distinction between Sources and Fire Dew is, Sources could either be an equivalent concept or a lower subset of one. At this point, I simply don't know. Expect a more decisive response soon.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I am the "Dark" Dog3352 is referring to. I was involved in a previous thread regarding this topic, and explained the distinctions between different types of Concept Manipulation in a post on one of those threads, so Dog3352 has been referring to my explanation in a few posts here.

Regarding this thread itself - while I have given this thread one long look through by now, I may need a bit longer to give a cohesive perspective on it.

One big concern that sits at the cornerstone of this thread, and one which I don't consider clear-cut at this point in time, is how similar Sources and Fire Dew are. They are both very clearly connected (as several sources refer to Fire Dew and Sources being the same thing, with the two terms being used interchangeably), but they also are clearly not the exact same thing (in reference to the quotes suggesting that Sources can "become" Fire Dew, suggesting there is a distinction). I've not seen enough acknowledgement of just how odd this contradiction in dialogue is.

I will need longer to sort through and evaluate the evidence to understand how these two facts can coexist, as depending on what the distinction between Sources and Fire Dew is, Sources could either be an equivalent concept or a lower subset of one. At this point, I simply don't know. Expect a more decisive response soon.

Thanks for evaluating. .

 

[GrathOfLux]

There is one big question I would like to ask that is of relevance to this topic.

Are there any examples in the series of someone's Source being directly erased? "Sources" are evidently primarily important in this series in regards to the people who they conceptualise, and there are general quotes here and there that would suggest these Sources can/have been erased before.

If this has happened in the series, what has happened to the person in question affected by it?

 

[Reiner04]

There is one big question I would like to ask that is of relevance to this topic.

Are there any examples in the series of someone's Source being directly erased? "Sources" are evidently primarily important in this series in regards to the people who they conceptualise, and there are general quotes here and there that would suggest these Sources can/have been erased before.

If this has happened in the series, what has happened to the person in question affected by it?

If their source would be affected, their all infinite incarnations will be, they all will feal pain worse than all combined pains in the world even if source just be scratched. Ingel spell can restore one's soul and body but still they won't be able to restore a person whose source has been gone, they have met true death. Source makes a person who they're, kind of conceptual personality throughout their incarnations (kind of jungian archetypes vibes here), it stays common to all their incarnations and keep them same despite if their concious behavior will may not be same but they still will be the same person.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

There is one big question I would like to ask that is of relevance to this topic.

Are there any examples in the series of someone's Source being directly erased? "Sources" are evidently primarily important in this series in regards to the people who they conceptualise, and there are general quotes here and there that would suggest these Sources can/have been erased before.

If this has happened in the series, what has happened to the person in question affected by it?

The thing is you can't interact with source even if you can interact with CM type 1 beings like Gods. Source are so abstract and fundamental even Gods who are order (CM type 1 existence) themselves neede that to exists. If you erase the Sources it will erase all of the infinite incarnations at once also making the character feel all of that incarnations death at once. Even if the world gets destroyed source will remain unaffected it will move on to new reality.

 

[Dog3352]

Sources are exactly what the explanation says, they are the fundamental concept of existence.

"The fundamental concept of existence that all living things hold within them. An excellent magician can be reincarnated with the memories of their life kept in their source, and even if the physical body perishes, as long as the source is intact, they can be revived."

It exists deeper than body, soul, mind and spirit.

"To begin with, magic power is created from the magical source in our bodies. To put it simply, it's the soul, the psyche, but the source exists even deeper in the abyss, and it's what makes us who we are."

As already said in the first explanation, the source exists even if the body is destroyed, a person is able to regenerate his body, even if there is only his source, it also exists deeper than the soul and spirit, as also already explained above.

Characters have the ability to think, cast spells, and memories remain in the fountain, which means that it governs the body, mind, soul, and spirit.

Basically: The source is the fundamental concept of existence (abstract), governing and being more fundamental than the body, mind, soul and spirit, even if everything that the source governs is destroyed, you can regenerate them as long as you have your source.

Source: Described as the fundamental concept of existence, abstract, it exists even if what it governs is destroyed, more fundamental and abstract than what it governs.

 

[Dog3352]

My god, why did I comment this when any MGK supporter can comment something better?

 

[Tatsumi504]

but they also are clearly not the exact same thing (in reference to the quotes suggesting that Sources can "become" Fire Dew, suggesting there is a distinction).

The distinction is conventional Life and Death. For those who are alive it's the source and those who are dead exist as fire dew waiting to be born or reincarnated.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Are there any examples in the series of someone's Source being directly erased? "Sources" are evidently primarily important in this series in regards to the people who they conceptualise, and there are general quotes here and there that would suggest these Sources can/have been erased before.

If this has happened in the series, what has happened to the person in question affected by it?

If you're not able to regenerate from source destruction then that's it, you're gone forever it's why destruction of the source is known as true death.

If fire dew isn't the source or the source is merely a subset of fire dew like the opposition is saying then they should reincarnate with that fire dew which doesn't happen

 

[GrathOfLux]

The distinction is conventional Life and Death. For those who are alive it's the source and those who are dead exist as fire dew waiting to be born or reincarnated.

Yes, I understand that much. The issue I have is whether the form changes between being considered a Source and being considered Fire Dew. It is unclear whether the distinction being conventional Life and Death means that there is a difference in the form that it takes, and consequentially a potential difference in how we'd treat the concept - the thread so far has involved assertions that the form either does or does not change, but it's not clear whether either stance is substantiated by the material.

If fire dew isn't the source or the source is merely a subset of fire dew like the opposition is saying then they should reincarnate with that fire dew which doesn't happen

Could you elaborate on this point? From what I understand, the "fundamental concept of existence" (as the series puts it) for people who are alive is their Source. When people die, their Source becomes Fire Dew, whatever this implies, and they are reborn at a later date. This cycle implies that, on top of Sources becoming Fire Dew when people die, Fire Dew should also become a Source when they are reborn. What exactly do you mean by "they should reincarnate with that fire dew, which doesn't happen"?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Could you elaborate on this point? From what I understand, the "fundamental concept of existence" (as the series puts it) for people who are alive is their Source. When people die, their Source becomes Fire Dew, whatever this implies, and they are reborn at a later date. This cycle implies that, on top of Sources becoming Fire Dew when people die, Fire Dew should also become a Source when they are reborn. What exactly do you mean by "they should reincarnate with that fire dew, which doesn't happen"?

For example

World exists because of fire dew exists
Characters exists because of Source exists also we come to conclusions on many scans source is fire dew.

If you destroy the world fire dew would move on to different realities
If you destroy the character source/fire dew will also move on different realities.

But destroying the source would erase the character existence hence they are completely erased from the verse itself. If Source & fire dew are different that character shouldn't die and move on to different realities and Reincarnate as someone else. That's what he is saying.

He is trying to say Destroying the Source means Destroying the fire dew itself and it won't move out of the world.

I may be wrong let's see what he is gonna say.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Yes, I understand that much. The issue I have is whether the form changes between being considered a Source and being considered Fire Dew. It is unclear whether the distinction being conventional Life and Death means that there is a difference in the form that it takes, and consequentially a potential difference in how we'd treat the concept - the thread so far has involved assertions that the form either does or does not change, but it's not clear whether either stance is substantiated by the material.

Could you elaborate on this point? From what I understand, the "fundamental concept of existence" (as the series puts it) for people who are alive is their Source. When people die, their Source becomes Fire Dew, whatever this implies, and they are reborn at a later date. This cycle implies that, on top of Sources becoming Fire Dew when people die, Fire Dew should also become a Source when they are reborn. What exactly do you mean by "they should reincarnate with that fire dew, which doesn't happen"?

This was in relation to the opposition. Despite the scans clearly stating they're the same, they maintain it's not.

My point is if the source isn't fire dew like they claim, then destroying the source shouldn't be the end for them because they should still be able to reincarnate from the fire dew. But this doesn't happen cause once your source is destroyed you're finished.

Regarding the distinction of Life and Death changing what state they exist in, matter for example is capable of existing in 3 different states. Taking water for instance would existing as Ice, water or vapor affect their atomic composition?

Also it's not like only the Fire dew of those who aren't alive affect the world. Above I've already sent glass a scan of people destroying each other causing world destruction which either he didn't see or is being ignored. Iirc there's a chapter indicating that it was stolen from those who are alive, let me just quickly get it
Edit: here it is

The earth is cracked and broken by countless fissures.

The hole is so deep that one cannot see the bottom, and the sand flows down like a waterfall.

The hole was widening, and even as this was happening, new cracks were appearing.

Losing fire dew, losing order, the withering desert is coming to an end.

"Hmmm. They have been very harsh with us again. This law garden is the foundation of order. If this place is destroyed, who knows what will happen to the azure skies of the gods?"

"What are you talking about? We know that there is the source of the world's destruction, but we have to find out where it is, don't we?"

Sasha said in a panic.

Misha was staring at the withering desert with her magic eyes.

"We don't have much time."

"No, it's obvious. You said that the total amount of magic in the world keeps decreasing."

I say as I fly over the withering desert.

Misha nodded next to me.

"The order of destruction is equal to the order of creation. If, in spite of this, the amount that is destroyed is not created, then there is a possibility that magical power is being stolen somewhere. To paraphrase this fundamental law garden order, fire dew."

Looking around, I spotted something in the dunes.

It was a mirage of trees.

It is the entrance to Dilfred's divine realm, the Deep Forest Labyrinth.

The lush fire dew leaves and large trees were about to die.

The sanctuary must also be coming to an end.

I landed on the barely remaining foothold.

"Since the beginning of time, fire dew had been deprived. Neither the four Juri gods nor Militia, the creator god, noticed the decrease in the fire dew. It is a blind spot because the divine race is an order."

Standing in front of the mirage, I peered into its abyss with my violet-tinged magical eyes.

"Life is born, deepens, eventually comes to an end, and undergoes a change. When is the time to take away the magic power without the gods realizing it?"

Misha blinked, and Sasha's gaze turned grim as if in thought.

"Whether it is birth, deepening, demise, or transformation, there is no way that the four deities of the tree that govern each of them are unaware that they are taking away magical power at any of these times."

No matter how you think about it, if the magic power is reduced, the balance will not be maintained.

But--

"There is a realm in this law garden that is beyond the reach of the divine eye of the Four Tree Gods."

Stepping forward, I put my hand in the mirage.

"The light will increase to conquer the mirage, and the mirage will conquer the light."

"Oh, ......," Sasha opened her mouth.

"The root of our approaching destruction is our increasing magical power. ......?"

I nod.

"The one who is perishing has no way of knowing how much his magical power will increase. The person who is perishing has no way of knowing how much his or her magic power will increase. Of course, nothing will happen on the spot. However, if the magic power that should not be taken away is taken away, it will run out and disappear at some point."

"At the time of birth, at the time of deepening, at the time of demise, or at the time of transformation, the slightest deviation that occurred there will go around and one day bring about the destruction of the world."

"Therefore, destruction and creation are not balanced."

"Dilfred said, beyond this mirage, there is a chasm. It is neither a deep forest nor a dead desert. But it is the deep forest and the withering desert."

At the end of deepening, there is an end.

How far is deepening, and where does it end?

Perhaps the deepening and the demise overlap.

It is both a deepening and an end. Because it is the destination of deepening, the magical power increases tremendously, and because it is the beginning of the end, it is fragile and easily destroyed.

"The only divine race that can see the end of deepening is Dilfred, the god of deepening."

"However, because it is an end that goes against his own order, his divine eye cannot reach the chasm between the two."

"And Anahem, the god of demise, has no divine eye to gaze into the depths of deepening."

"Those who had taken the fire dew took advantage of this blind spot. No, perhaps from the very beginning, the world was set up for it."

I jumped into the mirage.

Misha and Sasha followed.

A brief reprieve, less than a second.

The light increases to destroy the light, and the light conquers the destruction of the light.

My magical eye, which has seen this moment many times before, should be able to see the depths of the abyss of the divine world, the depths of this Law garden.

Perhaps even Misha and Sasha.

A moment later, I caught a glimmer of light and reached for it.

My body was enveloped in a dazzling radiance, and the landscape suddenly changed.
Empty.

An endless sea of clouds.

Our bodies were falling.

Is this ......?"

"The bottom of the abyss in the Fundamental Law Garden?"

Sasha and Misha say.

A lot of fire dew was falling in the sky, dancing like fireflies, just like us.

 

[PrinceofPein]

@EldemadeDityjon while I can take a shot back at you, I will not since you are a liability to me in general on MG threads

Which is how the God of Creation Came to be. All worlds begin as bubbles and the world is inside the bubble. Bubbles simply come into existence in layer 0 and fire dew exists in them. From this the Creator God comes into existence and creates the other Orders before creating the world.
You proved nothing

I will have to ask for scans for this, since what is in the OP said otherwise

Name the contradictions please.

the whole who came first

That is talking about the Order of the Silver Sea which is also filled with Fire Dew. Order in the silver sea>>>> Order in the bubble. Come on did you expect the silver sea not to have an order of it's own? What sustains the world is the order inside it not that of the SS. SS order is only responsible for how bubbles come into being, magic power, laws, and concepts flow to deeper parts of the sea.

Silver Sea or bubble world it does not matter, if order needs fire dew to be sustained and order existed before fire dew, it is a contradiction.

And now I am seeing that fire dew is the source of those who died and yet to be born correct? and it is that fire dew that sustains order.
Then individual sources cannot be type 1, there is a clear distinction between them

 

[Tatsumi504]

I will have to ask for scans for this, since what is in the OP said otherwise

Scans in the OP

the whole who came first

Still no contradiction there

Silver Sea or bubble world it does not matter, if order needs fire dew to be sustained and order existed before fire dew, it is a contradiction.

It is not a contradiction. The silver sea is filled with fire dew in the first place. The Order of the silver sea is what causes bubbles to come into existence. Inside the bubble the creator god is born who then proceeds to create to create Order that will govern the world inside the bubble. Silver sea order has nothing to do with the world inside the bubble so it has nothing to do with it. You're the one creating contradictions from things that don't matter.

The reality in question here is the world not the sea. Higher Order (Silver sea) creates the container for worlds (bubbles). The bubble already contains life (fire dew) inside. From this the first life (Original Creator God) comes into existence. The creator god proceeds to create lesser order (Order inside the bubble) and gods and then creates the world. So it's Fire dew> Order> World

 

[PrinceofPein]

Scans in the OP

Still no contradiction there

It is not a contradiction. The silver sea is filled with fire dew in the first place. The Order of the silver sea is what causes bubbles to come into existence. Inside the bubble the creator god is born who then proceeds to create to create Order that will govern the world inside the bubble. Silver sea order has nothing to do with the world inside the bubble so it has nothing to do with it. You're the one creating contradictions from things that don't matter.

The reality in question here is the world not the sea. Higher Order (Silver sea) creates the container for worlds (bubbles). The bubble already contains life (fire dew) inside. From this the first life (Original Creator God) comes into existence. The creator god proceeds to create lesser order (Order inside the bubble) and gods and then creates the world. So it's Fire dew> Order> World

So the fire dews that came first had no owners? since that would be the case in this scenario

Also you agree there is a distinction between how firedew and sources work? since it is pretty clear cut right now.

 

[Tatsumi504]

So the fire dews that came first had no owners? since that would be the case in this scenario

Also you agree there is a distinction between how firedew and sources work? since it is pretty clear cut right now.

Had no owners? Fire dew is the person, of course they have their own individuals. Which isn't strange as everything is already preordained

When did i admit to that? My message simply said that for reality (world), Fire dew existed first, then came order and then the world.

Why are you all trying so desperately to deny what is clearly stated? There is no contradiction. The only distinction is Life and Death determining what state it exists in, either as the source or as fire dew.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Had no owners? Fire dew is the person, of course they have their own individuals. Which isn't strange as everything is already preordained

When did i admit to that? My message simply said that for reality (world), Fire dew existed first, then came order and then the world.

Why are you all trying so desperately to deny what is clearly stated? There is no contradiction. The only distinction is Life and Death determining what state it exists in, either as the source or as fire dew.

There is a contradiction though, you claim fire dew exists first which would mean people came first and that is not possible since your scan says order comes before anything was created.
Also none of your scans says fire dew came first, just "order"

The fact that there is a distinction of life and death means there is one. and the fact that one governs order and one governs just a single person.

You can count me as disagree, I should not bother with this thread anymore.

 

[GrathOfLux]

So, let's start by establishing the fundamental details - things directly from the scans/quotes, or which can be deduced from the information provided thus far.

Fire Dew governs Orders, which are Type 1 Concepts (purportedly - I cannot confirm the latter part myself, but I trust prior discussion into it was thorough). When Fire Dew is removed, Orders cease to function.
Sources are the concepts that govern individual people. When people die, their Source becomes Fire Dew. We can deduce that, when they are reincarnated, the Fire Dew that once made up their concept becomes a Source again, creating a cycle.

What we don't know, and what is of deep importance to this discussion, is what exactly occurs in the transformation between Fire Dew and Sources (or vice-versa). The proponents of the thread support the idea that, because manipulating Fire Dew would be considered Type 1 CM (due to affecting the concepts behind Orders), that manipulating Sources would also qualify for Type 1 CM. The dissenters of the thread contend that, because there is a transformation involved that distinguishes Fire Dew and Sources, that we do not know for certain whether Fire Dew maintains the same properties that grant it Type 1 CM when it becomes a Source.

Is this all correct? I will continue under the pretense that it is, but do mention if I have misunderstood anything.

To be frank, nothing would help this thread more than a clear source indicating what exactly happens in the process of Fire Dew becoming a Source. I've seen claims, I've seen assertions, I've seen analogies, but I've not seen a clear quote or scan displaying what the differences between the two forms are. Until we know this for certain, there is always going to be some level of doubt in whatever conclusion we reach here, whether that be approval or dissent. If anyone can provide any quote, scan, or anything else from the verse that would clearly establish this, it should be provided.

However, I am erring on the side of believing that Sources should be treated as operable in the same way that Fire Dew is. As the original quotes indicate, Sources are the "fundamental concept of one's existence", in the same way that Fire Dew acts as the "fundamental concept of time/creation/destruction/etc". There is no established reason to believe or assume that fundamental concepts would be different within the hierarchy (as in, the hierarchy of Type 1/2/3 Concepts) based on what entity the concept is defining. As far as what can be inferred from everything provided, we have no reason to treat a Source as anything more or less than Fire Dew when applied to the subset of reality that is an individual's existence; in other words, affecting a Source should warrant Type 1 CM in the same way that affecting Fire Dew does.

Consider me in (tenuous) agreement. My point about the lack of information regarding the transformation between Sources and Fire Dew stands, but I will not assume the relevant information necessarily exists within the verse - in the event it doesn't, this is my stance. Sources should be treated the same way Fire Dew is without further elaboration.

 

[Tatsumi504]

There is a contradiction though, you claim fire dew exists first which would mean people came first and that is not possible since your scan says order comes before anything was created.
Also none of your scans says fire dew came first, just "order"

How is this a contradiction? The very essence of life that sustains concepts coming first is a contradiction? Just listen to yourself for a while. Order is necessary for physical reality to exist but why will the essence that sustains all things, the fundamental aspect of existence fall under that?

Of course Fire Dew existed first, if it didn't how will order be sustained? Fire Dew not existing first means it was created along with the world which would mean it can be created. Diminishing fire dew is what's causing the world's destruction so if fire dew can be created, why don't they just create more?

and the fact that one governs order and one governs just a single person.

And how many times do you need to be proven wrong? Both states govern a single person and still hold influence over Order. In the world of Elenesia, conflict between people destroying each other caused the elenesia world to be destroyed.

You can count me as disagree, I should not bother with this thread anymore.

Suit yourself, thank you for your time

 

[mal]

In Maou Reality can't exist Without Gods & Order.

but we saw theres bubble/reality/world that have Order w inhabitans but didnt have God.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Consider me in (tenuous) agreement. My point about the lack of information regarding the transformation between Sources and Fire Dew stands, but I will not assume the relevant information necessarily exists within the verse - in the event it doesn't, this is my stance. Sources should be treated the same way Fire Dew is without further elaboration.

In relation to that point, though not blatantly stated, there's information given on this and it's even in the OP.

Fire Dew
Something that flows through the Fundamental Laws Cyclic Garden, the domains of the Four Fundamental Laws Gods, equivalent to the term "Source" in the world of mortals. It is born, deepens, meets its demise, changes and cycles back to birth again, gradually decreasing its total amount in the process.

-LN Volume 10 Keyword​

"Life is something that reincarnates. The root that has been born deepens. That means growth. At the end of the deepening there is an end. The root that has reached the end, however, transforms into a different form. And you will have a new birth.”

WN Chapter 424.​

Like I said, it's not blatant but a conclusion can be reached from this.

1.) The statement "Life (source)/ Fire Dew is born" is referring to the birth of the source. Why this is so is because fire dew can't be created. It's quantity reducing is what's causing the destruction of reality so if it can be created, it stands to reason that no world should be destroyed in the first place as all they'll have to do is recreate the missing fire dew.

2.) Deepening: As a person approaches death, the source releases more power when they're in danger of dying. This process of gaining power is known as deepening.

“Listen up, Sasha. A flame burns the brightest right before it goes out.
Similarly, the source releases the most magic when it’s in danger of
elimination. This is the sure path to the abyss of magic for those studying it.”
[...]
“Use your power when you’re on the brink of death and save yourself.
Then the next time your life is in danger, your power will be even greater.”
It was the lack of danger in this era that had weakened demonkind. Dying
without actual death was crucial to increasing one’s power and drawing
nearer to the abyss.

3.) End or Demise: After deepening comes the end. Except for individuals with special natures, the process of gaining power to conquer death isn't infinite. If they're unable to save themselves and overcome death with the power gained then they die. After death, the source remains on earth for an unspecified amount of time before returning to the realm of the gods. During this period of time you could resurrect yourself or someone else can do it for you as long as it's within 3 seconds after death. After 3 seconds the probability of successfully resurrecting drops.

4.) Transformation: After these the 3 stages when the source ascends to the realm of the gods then comes transformation. Merely going by the name, we can assume this is where the source transforms into fire dew. What's stated to happen during transformation is the source losing memory, losing power the person had acquired before being reborn as a new person but with the same exact origin and it's said even though memory, power and personality maybe lost the true nature of the person remains the same.

After transformation, it cycles back to birth again (becoming the source) and the process repeats through the course of life. As you can see, nothing in the process suggests anything that indicates a change in the nature of the concept in any of these stages.

 

[Tatsumi504]

but we saw theres bubble/reality/world that have Order w inhabitans but didnt have God.

You're clearly reading a different story at this point. Mind naming the world where this happens?

 

[PrinceofPein]

How is this a contradiction? The very essence of life that sustains concepts coming first is a contradiction? Just listen to yourself for a while. Order is necessary for physical reality to exist but why will the essence that sustains all things, the fundamental aspect of existence fall under that?

Of course Fire Dew existed first, if it didn't how will order be sustained? Fire Dew not existing first means it was created along with the world which would mean it can be created. Diminishing fire dew is what's causing the world's destruction so if fire dew can be created, why don't they just create more?

And how many times do you need to be proven wrong? Both states govern a single person and still hold influence over Order. In the world of Elenesia, conflict between people destroying each other caused the elenesia world to be destroyed.

Both state of an individual source governs a person but needs a combination of millions of others to govern a type 1 concept, increase in quantity and quality.
Last question, what happens when fire dew is reduce to past the minimum amount needed to sustain a world? do the fire dew gets destroyed or lost or what happens?

Suit yourself, thank you for your time

I hope you understand that it is not that I am not seeing CM1, I was the one who gave suggestion for this, it is just that I believe extraordinary claims should have extraordinary proof, and I do not think this is enough.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Both state of an individual source governs a person but needs a combination of millions of others to govern a type 1 concept, increase in quantity and quality.

It doesn't need millions to govern type 1 concepts, the amount is what sustains them. One individual fire dew not sustaining reality doesn't disprove the fact that individual fire dew bears influence over reality.

I hope you understand that it is not that I am not seeing CM1, I was the one who gave suggestion for this, it is just that I believe extraordinary claims should have extraordinary proof, and I do not think this is enough.

Yeah i understand but most of the time, this proof cannot be obtained except the work was made for the purpose of battle boarding and just copies power scaling standards verbatim

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

but we saw theres bubble/reality/world that have Order w inhabitans but didnt have God.

Which World there's is no world like that in Maou can to name the world.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So, let's start by establishing the fundamental details - things directly from the scans/quotes, or which can be deduced from the information provided thus far.

Fire Dew governs Orders, which are Type 1 Concepts (purportedly - I cannot confirm the latter part myself, but I trust prior discussion into it was thorough). When Fire Dew is removed, Orders cease to function.
Sources are the concepts that govern individual people. When people die, their Source becomes Fire Dew. We can deduce that, when they are reincarnated, the Fire Dew that once made up their concept becomes a Source again, creating a cycle.

What we don't know, and what is of deep importance to this discussion, is what exactly occurs in the transformation between Fire Dew and Sources (or vice-versa). The proponents of the thread support the idea that, because manipulating Fire Dew would be considered Type 1 CM (due to affecting the concepts behind Orders), that manipulating Sources would also qualify for Type 1 CM. The dissenters of the thread contend that, because there is a transformation involved that distinguishes Fire Dew and Sources, that we do not know for certain whether Fire Dew maintains the same properties that grant it Type 1 CM when it becomes a Source.

Is this all correct? I will continue under the pretense that it is, but do mention if I have misunderstood anything.

To be frank, nothing would help this thread more than a clear source indicating what exactly happens in the process of Fire Dew becoming a Source. I've seen claims, I've seen assertions, I've seen analogies, but I've not seen a clear quote or scan displaying what the differences between the two forms are. Until we know this for certain, there is always going to be some level of doubt in whatever conclusion we reach here, whether that be approval or dissent. If anyone can provide any quote, scan, or anything else from the verse that would clearly establish this, it should be provided.

However, I am erring on the side of believing that Sources should be treated as operable in the same way that Fire Dew is. As the original quotes indicate, Sources are the "fundamental concept of one's existence", in the same way that Fire Dew acts as the "fundamental concept of time/creation/destruction/etc". There is no established reason to believe or assume that fundamental concepts would be different within the hierarchy (as in, the hierarchy of Type 1/2/3 Concepts) based on what entity the concept is defining. As far as what can be inferred from everything provided, we have no reason to treat a Source as anything more or less than Fire Dew when applied to the subset of reality that is an individual's existence; in other words, affecting a Source should warrant Type 1 CM in the same way that affecting Fire Dew does.

Consider me in (tenuous) agreement. My point about the lack of information regarding the transformation between Sources and Fire Dew stands, but I will not assume the relevant information necessarily exists within the verse - in the event it doesn't, this is my stance. Sources should be treated the same way Fire Dew is without further elaboration.

I think the general issue here is that, since fire dew governs order, then the destruction of sources would also affect order. However, it does not do that, so there is a clear difference between what fire dew is capable of and what sources are capable of, which should be enough to treat them differently.

Also, it feels odd to me to scale an individual object to an amalgamation of many of those objects, if that makes sense. I don't think we just assume that a subset of a type 1 concept is also type 1; Would we assume that because the concept of all apples in the world is type 1, that a subset of that (the concept of 1 apple) is also type 1? I've been led to believe that isn't the case, anyways.

I did want to bring up that sources are changed somewhat by what they govern. A source regenerates the body based on how it "remembers" it, so any alteration to the body would by extension alter the source (albeit only slightly).

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I think the general issue here is that, since fire dew governs order, then the destruction of sources would also affect order. However, it does not do that, so there is a clear difference between what fire dew is capable of and what sources are capable of, which should be enough to treat them differently.

The level of ignorance in this reply. Tatsumi already posted scans and Clarified how it affects the reality. Unfortunately for you staffs aren't Ignorant like you to ignore Tastumi scans and explanation.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The level of ignorance in this reply. Tatsumi already posted scans and Clarified how it affects the reality. Unfortunately for you staffs aren't Ignorant like you to ignore Tastumi scans and explanation.

I know that destroying fire dew affects reality, but where is it shown that destroying a single person's source affects reality in the same way?

 

[Theglassman12]

@EldemadeDityjon How about instead of labeling people as ignorant you post the text that proves the source and fire dew are equals, and not the fact that one's a subset of another.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

@EldemadeDityjon How about instead of labeling people as ignorant you post the text that proves the source and fire dew are equals, and not the fact that one's a subset of another.

Already Dark clarified and Tatsumi post already has scans and It's been already posted multiple times. If people wants to keep ignoring that and asking for same scans I don't have to post it again and Again. We will just let other staff evaluate like how standard rules states. One staff being Ignorant doesn't mean all are Ignorant.

Dark literally explained with brief summary why this is still Qualifies for CM type 1. So I don't care about 2 lines reply which worth nothing. Yeah I would rather wait for other staffs.