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Maou Gakuin no Futekigousha CRT: Addressing Venuzdonoa’s “Logic Manipulation”

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DaReaperMan said:
Then there's nothing to be done for you. If the MGK supporters can put cringe like "even higher type 4!" on their profiles then they can do a long and drawn out explanation separating this stuff from the standard Law Manipulation.
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And so I count two who think higher type 4 is cringe-.
 
DaReaperMan said:
Just switch Logic to Law on the profile and use the description to make sure people know the ins and outs.

Because if it's "Logic Manipulation" or "Law Manipulation" the effect is the same, ya'll are making a massive mountain out of the smallest anthill.
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Fundamentally, the issue is how this is treated. Despite all the cases of this evidently being Law Manipulation, we're instead giving it some made-up ability that is treated as completely separate from any other ability on the site. That's not how we do things at all.
 
Oh what you know !
We aren't going for higher degree of law manipulation anymore here. Dareaper.
Haha


Welp jokes aside.
I have said my part here.
So that's that I suppose.
 
Ruler_Star_Kuma said:
And so I count two who think higher type 4 is cringe-.
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You're surprised? I'm not exactly a fan of how MG supporters handle themselves and have made my opinion crystal clear in that regard lol
CloverDragon03 said:
Fundamentally, the issue is how this is treated. Despite all the cases of this evidently being Law Manipulation, we're instead giving it some made-up ability that is treated as completely separate from any other ability on the site. That's not how we do things at all.
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I fully understand the problem Clover, I'm just giving a Blunt solution
 
Embers_of_Twilight said:
But making the distinction is necessary here.

The people here (maybe because of the lack of necessary evidence) are probably interpreting as something which is just named differently in the verse, but overally functions the same, with the sole difference that one is more potent than the other.

Which is, the untrue part of it, not clearly caring about the differences. If we list it as it is people are surely gonna think that just having a layered law manipulation resistance is enough to tackle this logic manipulation.

Which is, as I said above, not at all how the verse treats it to be. It feels a complete unfairly treatment of the ability here
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Except that a grand total of zero evidence has actually supported this being its own unique thing.

A Destroyer of Reason? That's Law Manipulation
Destroying the logic/reason for why dodging an attack means you dodged it? That's Law Manipulation
Reducing all logic to nothing? That's Law Manipulation

The problem is that this is being treated as though it absolutely has to be something unique when it's just not. And guess what? If "logic/reason" is something superior to the likes of "order" and "laws," that's simply more potent Law Manipulation. We do not simply make up abilities not recognized on the site as we wish.
 
DaReaperMan said:
You're surprised? I'm not exactly a fan of how MG supporters handle themselves and have made my opinion crystal clear in that regard lol
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As someone who's seen you on threads before, I could tell. Though even as a supporter myself (well, not official on the wiki but I do consider myself one at least outside the wiki) I would've wished it had ended at just (law manip explanation for the profile here) 😭
 
Ruler_Star_Kuma said:
Either way, something like reaper suggested definitely fits well enough.
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Well not much as you would think.
What would you suggest it being the case ?
Some sorta "special" type of unconventional law/concept manipulation ?

Well guess what
Since you already have read mgk, you would know how even that's not gonna solve problem.
There already exists some unconventional concepts like Eques and Arcana in the verse.
Their order manipulation is way unconventional themselves. Yet they are feeble infront of reason manipulation.

So even if you do categorise it as something beyond standard law manipulation, it can be put into unconventional categories and still won't do justifice to the ability.
 
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CloverDragon03 said:
Except that a grand total of zero evidence has actually supported this being its own unique thing.
Click to expand...
That's fair.
Even I addressed that the necessary evidences are lacking.
And most of them comes from later arcs of the series.
Which is the same reason Dereck said that it would be unnecessary to move it now, since he's gonna bring the scans required later anyways.

But having said that.
As I said, I suppose it's best to see what other staffs got to say about it.
 
Embers_of_Twilight said:
Well not much as you would think.
What would you suggest it being the case ?
Some sorta "special" type of unconventional law/concept manipulation ?

Well guess what
Since you already have read mgk, you would know how even that's not gonna solve problem.
There already exists some unconventional concepts like Eques and Arcana in the verse.
Their order manipulation is way unconventional themselves. Yet they are feeble infront of reason manipulation.

So even if you do categories as something beyond standard law manipulation, it can be put into unconventional categories and still won't do justifice to the ability.
Click to expand...
Get me 5 or more people who use this logic manipulation with profiles

Get me at minimum 10 or more abilities from it

And only then you may put logic manipulation onto the profiles as a verse power.

Until then? Nah
 
DaReaperMan said:
Get me 5 or more people who use this logic manipulation with profiles

Get me at minimum 10 or more abilities from it

And only then you may put logic manipulation onto the profiles as a verse power.

Until then? Nah
Click to expand...
You have said your part then.

My stance is also still the same here.
Rest depends on other staffs.
 
Embers_of_Twilight said:
Well not much as you would think.
What would you suggest it being the case ?
Some sorta "special" type of unconventional law/concept manipulation ?
Click to expand...
Considering would have to abide by the way the wiki goes about things- even if it's put as 'law manip' can still explain it in such a way (I mean the profile already shows abilities it has to make it only add on) to where 'yeah, this not merely law manipulation'.

The whole overcoming resistances thing for the sword through means of 'yeah, no you don't' just be like that. So can at least EXPLAIN it to where it sounds like that, or at least give it more justice.
 
Like, it's obvious especially by later means of the story's events (thanks V5 and V6 onward) 'yeah, this sword is potentially nutty', but I can at least say there's definitely a point to where both sides can come to a compromise.

(By the means of what reaper explained), even if it's a small fix.
 
Ruler_Star_Kuma said:
Considering would have to abide by the way the wiki goes about things- even if it's put as 'law manip' can still explain it in such a way (I mean the profile already shows abilities it has to make it only add on) to where 'yeah, this not merely law manipulation'.

The whole overcoming resistances thing for the sword through means of 'yeah, no you don't' just be like that. So can at least EXPLAIN it to where it sounds like that, or at least give it more justice.
Click to expand...
Embers_of_Twilight said:
You have said your part then.

My stance is also still the same here.
Rest depends on other staffs.
Click to expand...
Now if the other supporters do wants to abide by this idea then that would be that.
 
The higher degree law manip could just be a layered one after all
Logic manip is being changed to what now?, law manipulation?, because that being said it's more fundamental than that, probably law manip in addy to reality warping of some sort
"You dodged doesn't mean you evaded the attack" type of thing def fits law manip and reality warping
But i think its okay to leave it as it is
 
Jozaysmith? said:
The higher degree law manip could just be a layered one after all
Logic manip is being changed to what now?, law manipulation?, because that being said it's more fundamental than that, probably law manip in addy to reality warping of some sort
"You dodged doesn't mean you evaded the attack" type of thing def fits law manip and reality warping
But i think its okay to leave it as it is
Click to expand...
Well again, the problem is that "Logic Manipulation" is an ability that doesn't exist at all on the wiki. I see no reason to keep something that, by our standards, shouldn't even exist

I argue that it's Law Manipulation to a higher degree. Perhaps even a layered one, depending on the workings of the verse itself, but we don't make up abilities that the site doesn't recognize like this
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Well again, the problem is that "Logic Manipulation" is an ability that doesn't exist at all on the wiki. I see no reason to keep something that, by our standards, shouldn't even exist

I argue that it's Law Manipulation to a higher degree. Perhaps even a layered one, depending on the workings of the verse itself, but we don't make up abilities that the site doesn't recognize like this
Click to expand...
The issue is that the wiki minimize having too many abilities just like other wiki's, the supporters of the series can word it however they want;
For example the ability of "Wish granting" doesn't exist in wiki but we can term that as power bestowal it's not the same idea but the same terminology, the same goes for MGK logic manipulation, even Time stop was removed and added to regular time manipulation page, and shockwave generation removed and became vibration manipulation. So it's not all abilities that'll be existing in wiki just some way of describing it
And like that i see no problem with them keeping their logic manip
As long as the link to logic manip is law manip
Making it layered goes against the layered abilities CRT though so you can't make the suggestion of making it layered
But just leave it as it is or add some other abilities to it
 
DaReaperMan said:
Then there's nothing to be done for you. If the MGK supporters can put cringe like "even higher type 4!" on their profiles then they can do a long and drawn out explanation separating this stuff from the standard Law Manipulation.
Click to expand...
Care to tell me why higher degree of acc4 is cringe?
 
Considering later stuff I wouldn't be surprised if higher degree of type 4 just fits despite the naming-.

Not like Anos is the only one who has 'higher degree of acc4'
 
DaReaperMan said:
The wording is ***** and it comes off as desperate since Anos didn't get type 5 after the changes were made(not through lack of trying)
Click to expand...
Well higher degree of type 4 exist in several profiles
It just means layered acca4 or something
Or soemthing more profound than type 4 but not 5
Gurren lagann, tensura, some Chinese verses all have it
I mean it's cool to be cringe but thats personal belief, but the ability itself isn't wrong or unjustified
 
I was asked to comment on this but I don't have much to say. The abilities are treated differently in verse but if their applications still fall under the one power we have then it doesn't matter if you name them differently, it still falls under the wiki's definition of the on ability to some capacity. If it's that different, make a page for logic manipulation (showing why it's so different from law manipulation that it being a thing is notable), or make it a subset power (apparently it already linked to law manipulation on the profile?), I honestly don't know what to say, and I'm honestly to tied these days to discuss a topic like this. Apologies if that's not what people want to hear but I'm not up for much discussion as I've already mentioned to the user who asked me to comment on this.

Place me in the neutral section please.
 
Jozaysmith? said:
The issue is that the wiki minimize having too many abilities just like other wiki's, the supporters of the series can word it however they want;
For example the ability of "Wish granting" doesn't exist in wiki but we can term that as power bestowal it's not the same idea but the same terminology, the same goes for MGK logic manipulation, even Time stop was removed and added to regular time manipulation page, and shockwave generation removed and became vibration manipulation. So it's not all abilities that'll be existing in wiki just some way of describing it
And like that i see no problem with them keeping their logic manip
As long as the link to logic manip is law manip
Making it layered goes against the layered abilities CRT though so you can't make the suggestion of making it layered
But just leave it as it is or add some other abilities to it
Click to expand...
Your examples are all well and good. The problem is that this is not how Logic Manipulation is currently treated. It’s currently treated as some completely unique ability that absolutely nothing else on the site has
 
I do remember slapping Law Manip on logic manip on one verse I worked on.

the problem with Logic manip is that one can argue the scale of such ability.
it could be as generic as the logic of a law or as complex as truth system logic.
here lies the problem you cannot simply say that the truth system logic is just a higher layer in a regular sense similar to how you cannot simply argue someone's Aca type 4 as being a higher layer because the difference for irregular causal systems is on how different they are that regular causal system even at its very basic wouldn't be able to interact hence we get some degrees of Aca type 4 which are just resistance to Causality hax or Aca Type 4 where one needs to be functioning on similar level of irregularity just to interact with the characters.

What does this mean for Law manip?

So far we only have possible uses for Law manipulation, which goes from regular laws of physics to affecting reality and unreality. There are variations and levels. degrees even. but unlike Precognition. We don't classify it despite mentioning how it is tied to rules, mandates, and even fundamental logical principles/truths/facts.

It is written as Logic manipulation alongside explanation is what gives it clarity.
the same way we put Analytical Prediction on someone's profile and not Precognition when their precognition is done through Analytical Prediction.

We can correct the conception of people that somehow this is a unique ability. and we should since people would just look at the ability and resistance to the ability to argue if it will work or not without understanding level of degree.

this is my full opinion regarding this CRT and will not elaborate further.
 
I'm sorry, but I genuinely feel like my point is being misunderstood given that I see this line of reasoning several times over. It's not labeled as Logic Manipulation to "specify what kind of Law Manipulation it is." No, the reason it's labeled this way is because it's genuinely treated as some completely unique ability, meaning that adding "Logic Manipulation" was more akin to just making up an ability that the site doesn't recognize.
 
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