Undertale town level downgrades

[Buttersamuri]

Again. That was only Part of my argument. I wasn't solely just saying it is wrong cause of that The distance she does make is far more comparable to the actual speed of the verse is essentially my point on that. And the other part of my argument where it's not even remotely consistent with their normal feats was the main issue.

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah, and I'm not saying it isn't an outlier (I don't really care), it's just the "they don't move this fast while you're playing so they're not that fast" you're using is freaking ridiculous.

I think that maybe they were just arguing that it was an outlier, but in a dumb way?

I don't think the same people take issue with Flowey being Immeasurable but having attacks that move at a visible speed.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Yeah, it was part of your argument... which is the only part I'm responding to, because as I've said, I couldn't care less about the rest.

 

[Read_this_post]

@Jaften Teleportation is a subset of spatial manipulation, and it still has better precedence in Sans's case than him running across the screen at FTE speeds—you actually need to prove that Sans' space manipulation doesn't work on himself, despite the fact that the clearly space-defying shortcut scenes worked on him. Teleportation can be spatial manipulation only in certain cases and visa versa. The spatial manipulation scenes do not work on himself directly. His shortcuts are spatial manipulation in the sense that he is drawing the space closer to him in order to create a shortcut. If he were to use teleportation in the way you describe and to get there in a literal instant then that would completely contradict his logic of calling it a shortcut, as anybody taking it would see the room instantly appear out of thin air and realise they did not get their by any type of shortcut and were likely brought there instantaniously. If sans changes space to create a shortcut, then that would give him an actual way to make people believe they took a shortcut and a legitimate reason to believe it when in reality it is just using spatial manip to create one. Creating a shortcut like this cannot be used for teleportation as shown in that scene

This type of spatial manipulation could not be used on sans directly so that he teleports from one side of the screen to the other.

Being fast enough to dodge doesn't mean you have to be considerably faster. Just comparable in speed to the attack, with good reactions. He is not just fast enough to dodge. He is fast enough to the point where he cannot be hit even when frisk knows exactly where and when he is going to move

Prove it. Prove his space manipulation wouldn't allow him to effectively teleport, considering teleportation is a power that falls under space manipulation. Because right now it sure as hell looks like he can. Burden of proof. Sans spatial manipulation has never been shown as teleportation as oppose to creating non existent shortcuts which is non teleportation based spatial manipulation

I don't think it's instantaneous (that is a strawman, speaking of) but I do think he can use it on himself. He can also appear to use it within a fraction of a second, which is about how long he would need to replicate the "both sides of the screen" feat. Even though teleportation would require him to go from one side to the other instantaneously. Also him in that screen looks more like he is having an effect on frisk and using space manip to force him to go in a circle. Especially when you consider that frisk could not fall for that long in the judgement hall. Also sans being able to bring himself to the other side of the screen in limited time is different from being able to appear from two different sides of the screen.

Anyway bending space to take you do another location would not allow you to appear from one side of the screen to the other in that scene. "Spatial manipulation can sometimes be teleportation" is not an argument at all and blatant cherry picking. Sans through how his character is portrayed is shown to use spatial manipulation to create shortcuts and send other people back to an original spot and move at incredibly high speeds that frisk cant keep up with. The latter is what is shown within his moving across the screen scene.

Also the last scene you showed is not spatial manip. It is skipping ahead in the fight which is just limited time manip.

 

[Read_this_post]

For the undyne argument. giving undyne this speed for running to the area is like giving the running man from zelda infinite speeds for beating you in zero seconds. It is not something you can class for speed. Gag feats should only be disregarded in certain cases which i explained earlier. If the gag is still treat as a legitimate feat (such as the oven) then it should be considered. This feat is not one of those cases and really just shows undyne can get to her house in short time which if anything is athletic to superhuman.

The best feat frisk has is dodging undynes spear in this scene which is a case of undyne throwing it and not just magically summoning it.

 

[Andytrenom]

How is this a gag feat? Her running this fast is used for comedy, but just being used for comedy doesn't make any feat illegitimate unless the event is actually sonething that doesn't make sense.

 

[Read_this_post]

How is this a gag feat? Her running this fast is used for comedy, but just being used for comedy doesn't make any feat illegitimate unless the event is actually sonething that doesn't make sense.

Because this is a case of it literally just being gameplay mechanics. Frisk can phone undyne at any time, undyne could easily take alternate routes and shortcuts (jumping over obstacles, the river man, the iglu etc) and there is an assumed timeframe when any timeframe can be given depending on when you ring them up. An activated cutscene cannot be used as cannon since their is no actual canonical timeframe given besides whenever you choose to ring up papyrus. At best this feat would be superhuman.

 

[Andytrenom]

Then just make that argument, I don't see any to reason to call this unusable gag.

 

[Read_this_post]

That was mostly everyone else but okay.

So anyway, is their a way to quantify frisk dodging undynes spear in this scene? Apparently spear throwing like this can reach superhuman/subsonic levels according to earlier.

 

[Andytrenom]

That was mostly everyone else but okay.

So anyway, is their a way to quantify frisk dodging undynes spear in this scene? Apparently spear throwing like this can reach superhuman/subsonic levels according to earlier.

You'd have to figure out how fast the soul is moving and compare it to the spear. And I'm really hesitant using something like that to figure out the speed.

 

[Agnaa]

You'd have to figure out how fast the soul is moving and compare it to the spear. And I'm really hesitant using something like that to figure out the speed.

Same for reasons I've mentioned above.

 

[Read_this_post]

Im no good with speed calcs. However undyne should at least be able to throw her spear at 90mph which is the athletic throwing speed. I cant find any specific reasons from you agnaa. The arows and barages of spears undyne throws are magically spawned. However the one spear you have to dodge at the end is clearly undyne throwing it.

I would like for someone to calc how fast frisk would be moving. This should scale to a mid determined frisk and others around undynes level.

 

[Agnaa]

This was my reasoning above.

I was never a huge fan of using in-battle attack sprites for speed feats without support for them, especially when they have flies, solar rays, electricity, and immeasurable gods all attacking at comparable speeds.

Also I'm not really sure if the last one was Undyne throwing it.

 

[Read_this_post]

Undyne throwing her spear in that scene is the only instance where she actively moves her arm in the spear throwing fashion and doesnt give the same magical noise that the spears she spawns do. Plus it appears and acts as the normal spear she throws. When a sprite should at least have specific speed feat, there is no reason to disregard it.

This isnt a scenario like vulkin where the lightning can easily, is more than likely fake, is being summoned and can travel at any speed. This is an actual spear being thrown by a superhuman athlete. It should be athletic throwing speed at minimum.

 

[Agnaa]

She doesn't move it in a spear-throwing fashion, and her moving her spear coincides with removing the magic on the soul.

But you are right about the magical noise. It might be usable then.

 

[Andytrenom]

Yeah it's a swipe of the spear, not a throw.

 

[Read_this_post]

You are probably right about the swipe. But in addition the spears thrown around you are the ones that are fired in your general direction in groups and when hit on the bridge, appear as the sprites which make the noise. The spear you dodge is being aimed directly at you and clearly functions differently from the others. The one you dodge should definitely be the indidual spear throw you see on the date.

 

[Read_this_post]

I should also mention for sans that he was also able to break a stick at the beginning of the game without even appearing on screen. Shouldnt that also say something about his speed?

 

[Psychomaster35]

That feels like something at least Subsonic or much higher. That could be another possible way of how he takes his "shortcuts", by speeding faster than the eye can see and going to that location.

 

[Paul_Frank]

@psycho

If sans did that through speed how does sans take the player towards a wall and ends up at grillby's

Or take the protagonist from outside MTT resort to inside the diner by walking the wrong way

 

[Read_this_post]

Im pretty sure his shortcuts are spatial manip. same goes for his showings in genocide. The feat of him appering whenever you go to either side of the screen is arguably speed. But the feat at the beginning is pretty clearly subsonic. Even if he were to teleport on top of that stick and then move off he would still be doing both faster than the eye can percieve.

Normally the stick breaks as soon as it is covered by the tree. However from what i remember, it is possible to view the stick break without the tree in the way as well. Plus he is impossible to see no matter how fast you turn back. Based on how heavily implied it is, sans should easily have subsonic movement and reactions.

 

[FloweryAlex]

Sans can obviously teleport people, as shown in his "special attack" before he falls asleep, so his shurtcuts should also be that instead of speeding.


And the screen is covered by the tree, so he could've teleported there and away. Seems like too much an unknown to give speedrating based on it. I don't remember it breaking with you looking at it, and turning around takes less than it did for him to teleport you around.

 

[DMB_1]

And yeah, it wouldn't really make much sense for Sans to be able to blitz you with anything but his attacks speed.

 

[Read_this_post]

Ive already explained why it isnt teleportation and rather just a type of spatial manip. He has shown to be able to teleport frisk back to the original spot (which is arguably still the same spatial manip i described) but that is it.

You can view it break without seeing anything at least from when i last played the game. He is still able to remain invisible completely with or without teleportation.

Sans doesnt blitz you because he only has superior reaction and movement speed. His attack speed is likely just superhuman depending on how frisk scales to that spear dodging feat.

 

[FloweryAlex]

Your explaination is one I find lacking tough. He has teleported himself and frisk around the underground several times, and it hardly makes sense that his attack speed is that much lower that his movement speed. He could've stabbed you in the back faster than you can react to if that were the case.

I don't remember it breaking on screen, and while I understand how... difficult it is, I won't just accept that with no proof.

That doesn't make sense tough. He should be able to just grab a bone and stab you if that was the case.

 

[CBtheDB]

Brb, getting a moderator since this thread's derailing and needed to close LONG ago.

 

[Read_this_post]

Okay it seems you cant view the stick brake. At least through recent attempts. ALthough im pretty sure it is possible to calc how quick sans would have needed to react to teleport onto the stick and away that quickly.

He didnt teleport frisk around as it wouldnt make any logical sense for him to do so. I literally explained why that is the case.

No he couldnt. Travel and reactions =/= attacking speed. Sans would be putting himself into a high risk of getting caught and killed if he tried to do that. Plus by the same logic he could easil teleport behind you and stab you which never happened. Sans is clearly shown to be faster than frisk. If he wasnt then he wouldnt be able to dodge your attacks to the point where even knowing exactly where he would move to is useless.

 

[Read_this_post]

Maybe if sans speed is derailing, his speed can be unknown for now. But somebody still does need to do a calc on that spear dodging thing i mentioned

 

[CBtheDB]

Maybe if sans speed is derailing, his speed can be unknown for now. But somebody still does need to do a calc on that spear dodging thing i mentioned

Where was that? I could try that out.

 

[FloweryAlex]

ce again, your explaination is lacking. It makes absolutely zero sense for sans to make you walk towards a wall, and fot you to end up several hundred meters away in another place altogether. There is no possible way he isn't teleporting you.

And you are claiming he can teleport and run around faster than frisk can see. Grabbing a bone and just walking behind frisk is objectively possible for him if that were the case.

 

[Read_this_post]

here. This is the only one where undyne more than likely throws her spear rather than summons one. It was brought up earlier by thethrirwhatever that the athletic throwing speed is 90 mph.

 

[Read_this_post]

snip

How is it lacking? I literally explained how spatial manipulation would work in that instance and how he would be able to create shortcuts through spatial manipulation without teleporting. Read the comment properly.

He has consistently shown to be able to teleport/run faster than he can see and definitely move faster than he can keep up with. And no, it isnt. If sans isnt able to throw an attack faster than frisk can perceive he can be caught and killed. Plus we dont even know his striking strength which may very well not be enough to kill frisk especially on a genocide run.

 

[CBtheDB]

here. This is the only one where undyne more than likely throws her spear rather than summons one. It was brought up earlier by thethrirwhatever that the athletic throwing speed is 90 mph.

Considering Undyne is trying to kill Frisk there it would make sense for her to be throwing it as fast as she could possibly thow it, and scaling to her previously calc'd 467 mph speed it would be at least subsonic.


In my calc here I estimated her spears to weigh about 100.6 lbs. The kinetic energy here would be 994,398 Joules, or 237.67 grams of TNT.

 

[Read_this_post]

Running speed does not scale to throwing speed. Plus the running speed calc was not accepted fra. Sorry. The calc that is needed is how fast frisk is in that scene for dodging that spear in the scene which was going 90mph (athletic throwing speed).

 

[Jaften]

That's calc stacking, isn't it?

Also the spear is magical, not made of real materials, so we can't really assume the mass.

 

[CBtheDB]

Running speed does not scale to throwing speed. Plus the running speed calc was not accepted fra. Sorry. The calc that is needed is how fast frisk is in that scene for dodging that spear in the scene which was going 90mph (athletic throwing speed).

"Fra?" Also, why was the running speed calc not accepted? It's like the only real speed feat in the game.

That's calc stacking, isn't it? Also the spear is magical, not made of real materials, so we can't really assume the mass.
Yeah, though I'll admit I was running out of options.

Also as it clearly behaved like an object with mass, and magic or not, we need to have some kind of basis for determining weight. If it can't have mass it can't touch anything and the like. And we can't assume it's, like, plastic or whatever.

 

[Read_this_post]

Because this is a case of it literally just being gameplay mechanics. Frisk can phone undyne at any time, undyne could easily take alternate routes and shortcuts (jumping over obstacles, the river man, the iglu etc) and there is an assumed timeframe when any timeframe can be given depending on when you ring them up. An activated cutscene cannot be used as cannon since their is no actual canonical timeframe given besides whenever you choose to ring up papyrus. At best this feat would be superhuman.

 

[FloweryAlex]

How is it lacking? I literally explained how spatial manipulation would work in that instance and how he would be able to create shortcuts through spatial manipulation without teleporting. Read the comment properly.

He has consistently shown to be able to teleport/run faster than he can see and definitely move faster than he can keep up with. And no, it isn't. If sans isn't able to throw an attack faster than frisk can perceive he can be caught and killed. Plus we don't even know his striking strength which may very well not be enough to kill frisk especially on a genocide run.

What part gave your interpretation more credibility than saying that it's teleportation? We know for a fact that he can teleport, so I'll just call Occam's Razor and say that is teleportation too. You give zero proof beyond Sans calling them shortcuts. There is zero reason to differentiate him disappearing from in front of you during genocide, him teleporting your soul around, him teleporting back and forth before the "dev room", etc.

He never once tries to make you believe you didn't teleport but walked, not once. Papyrus directly mentions that he hates how he bends space to skip his traps, and nobody else ever acknowledges it. That isn't proof. Because him walking to the opposite direction is not more plausible even if he were to "shorten space".

Seriously, did I miss some proof? All I'm seeing is "there is nothing saying that he is not shortening space instead of teleporting" (asking to prove a negative, burden of proof negates that), he calls them shortcuts (Hardly enough proof on it's own. And shortcut can also mean a way to skip something, so... yeah) and that he is trying to hide that he is teleporting (just false, completely. When you go to the annoying dog's room, he teleports in front of you and even questions why your following him, obviously poking fun at the fact that he appeared before you without moving. Papyrus also knows that sans plain skips his traps, and the others don't react to him at all, so no real argument there, either.)


As for the last part, no. He never shown to teleport faster than Frisk can see. The screen either goes black for a second, or you can obviously see how he teleports you back to your position. And that makes no sense. He doesn't need to throw it. He could grab a bone, and just physically walk besides frisk and stick it up their ass and call it a day. The bones still ignore durability. And when frisk get's close enough he can one-shot them with an undodgable attack, so he could walk up behind him and do that.

 

[CBtheDB]

Because this is a case of it literally just being gameplay mechanics. Frisk can phone undyne at any time, undyne could easily take alternate routes and shortcuts (jumping over obstacles, the river man, the iglu etc) and there is an assumed timeframe when any timeframe can be given depending on when you ring them up. An activated cutscene cannot be used as cannon since their is no actual canonical timeframe given besides whenever you choose to ring up papyrus. At best this feat would be superhuman.

I suppose you have a point. My calculation would probably be considered a high-end, though, since it only takes into account Undyne leaving her house, the phone dialing Papyrus, and the words per minute of the conversation leading to her's arrival, which can't be controlled by the player.

Other than that, You do have a good point, Undyne could have still taken an alternate path with shortcuts. Superhuman it is, then?

 

[Jaften]

Also as it clearly behaved like an object with mass, and magic or not, we need to have some kind of basis for determining weight. If it can't have mass it can't touch anything and the like. And we can't assume it's, like, plastic or whatever.

That's true, but you don't get to assume what the materials are when the object clearly isn't made of real materials. That's dishonest, and we collectively can't allow that. This entire CRT is in the first place about getting rid of the dishonest calcs in the Undertale section.