Undertale MHS Downgrade

[Armorchompy]

Point got a bit muddled and dragged out, but it was just "it moves and was created in unrealistic ways, so we shouldn't assume realistic speeds". I was actually tryna say that the idea that Vulkin made it slower was wrong :v (as those who disagreed with me were arguing "okay monsters can manipulate attacks, why would they do that to make them slower?")

Alright fair enough. I guess you could say it's sort of like a light/electricity construct not moving at any particular speeds, but given it still basically shoots like a projectile I dunno if that should be the default assumption, I'd consider it acceptable if slightly questionable to say it's moving like ""normal"" electricity. The kind of thing that would be fine on its own but probably better to ignore if it clashes with verse portrayal or whatever (which I don't think is the case here, provided you don't use MHS+)

Huh, I thought I made a thread about this but apparently I haven't.

I also just disagree with there being an electricity speed rating in general. We put it around Mach 1 based on pixel-scaling of a video of someone testing an IRL electricity gun, but that evidences that electricity's speed can vary between Mach 1 and Mach 1300, but critically, it doesn't put an actual lower bound on the speed. If it can get over 1000x slower based on a variety of complicated factors, why say it couldn't get another ~100 times slower, putting it in ordinary human range?

But hey, all-in-all, if you think that reasoning sucks, or you'd want a different thread for that, I think your overall view is fair enough.

I dunno, I guess there's an argument there but I think I'd prefer there being some general, safe-ish value for "assumed electric attack speed", to my understanding it's at least partially related to the amount of energy that goes into the electricity so I think the Mach 1.6 one is basically a lowball in most cases.

 

[Catzlaflame]

I am of the opinon that there needs to be a balance between the whole "author's intent" thing, and what is being shown; I can tolerate the "author's intent" for a feat overruling some discrepancies, but personally, if I weighed the presented outcomes on my inner forbearance scale, it would weigh in favor of Agnaa's reasoning. I am not trying to deny the evidence, I aknowledge the thunder statement, and the whole cloud/bolt theme is very compelling, but I think the presentation in-verse is just too divergent to actual lightning as per what Agnaa has described (i.e., it shooting out at like 180 degrees for instance). I agree with the OP.

Obligatory I'm just commenting since I was tagged, and don't have anything against the verse -- since something along those lines was metioned earlier.

 

[Arceus0x]

First page is 9-A, so doesn't even meet that standard.

Second page, I can't actually evaluate whether it meets our standards for Lightning Feats, which is, in short, that it either has to be cloud-to-ground lightning, or it has to demonstrate a few properties from among of "making muscles contract", "having an electro-magnetic field", "being shown to move it areal lightning speed", "flowing through conducting materials", "being created by a character who can manipulate real electricity/electromagnetism", "generating ozone", and "causing electrolysis". Plus, if it has properties that real lightning shouldn't have, it should have more real properties from that list to make up from it. And after all that, it also needs to show that it carries at least 1.6 billion Joules or 100 million Volts.

So yeah, your premise that characters who are strong enough have their lightning automatically treated as real is just going against our official standards. Any pages out of line with that should also be revised.

Electro Dragon uses real lightning, we see baby edrags do that in official vids, electricity in CoC/CR is consistently realistic in portrayal.
I just wanted to say this so I don't get a sudden downgrade to deal with.

 

[Arceus0x]

I dunno, I guess there's an argument there but I think I'd prefer there being some general, safe-ish value for "assumed electric attack speed", to my understanding it's at least partially related to the amount of energy that goes into the electricity so I think the Mach 1.6 one is basically a lowball in most cases.

Afaik the mach 1.6 is literally a calc of electricity from a wire. Lightning as in cloud-ground or most cloud-cloud ones has a far more consistent speed.

 

[Agnaa]

Afaik the mach 1.6 is literally a calc of electricity from a wire. Lightning as in cloud-ground or most cloud-cloud ones has a far more consistent speed.

It's from an electricity gun some YouTuber made. Electricity in a wire goes from 0.42 to 0.99 c, mostly in the 0.6 to 0.8 range.

 

[Arceus0x]

It's from an electricity gun some YouTuber made. Electricity in a wire goes from 0.42 to 0.99 c, mostly in the 0.6 to 0.8 range.

In a wire, outside the wire it goes through air which makes the speed different. It's the same case as with light. In a vacuum light travels at 1c while in water it travels at about 0.75c. Electricity travels at near light speed in a wire due to it being conductive but when it hits air it gets very slow. Speed is obviously different based on energy output too. Heck, even visually the speed is already different. Lightning is visually above Mach 1.6. Think about it, a lightning bolt that strikes from a storm that is 3km above ground would've travelled 3km in less than 0.25 seconds as we cannot physically see it move. This alone would make a lightning bolt 12km/s or mach 35.6. So even a mental calc with no slwomo puts the average bolt more than 22x above the electric little bolt we pixel scaled.

 

[Requiem_Yoriichi]

Is this still going on?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Yup, I also do believe we have an equal amount of staff for and against it.

 

[Monsters_fight]

I know my vote doesn't matter, but I disagree with the Thread starter

 

[Antvasima]

Honestly I feel that the standards might need some rewording. Most of those aren't really properties of specifically lightning, just electricity in general, so while they're fine to use if something is lightning-like in other ways, I don't think an 8-C standard electricity attack doing stuff like making muscles twitch or conducting like electricity should prove it to be MHS+.

@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0

Do you also think that our standards need to be modified in that regard, and if so, are either of you willing to handle it?

 

[Antvasima]

For the record, I also think that Agnaa and Bambu seem to make sense here.

 

[Da3ggman]

Bump?

 

[Wikisource]

This still continue?

 

[Agnaa]

Sure, let's keep this going

@ByAsura @SamanPatou @Dereck03 @Tllmbrg @JustSomeWeirdo @CrimsonStarFallen @Elizio33 @Ugarik @Dark-Carioca

We need more staff input on this thread, as it depends a borderline case of how we apply our standards for Lightning Feats.

 

[Armorchompy]

Do you also think that our standards need to be modified in that regard, and if so, are either of you willing to handle it?

I've thought about making a revision for both those and the light/laser ones just to clarify some weird wording and maybe account for a few edge cases, I'm not sure how well it'd be received though.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, well-considered genuine logical improvements are obviously appreciated.

 

[Armorchompy]

Actually I guess going over the Lightning Feats page again, it essentially says that any 8-C electric attack is MHS+, which I disagree with but would be a bigger and more controversial revision to undertake, so I'll probably just do lasers.