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Undertale MHS Downgrade

Agnaa said:
Point got a bit muddled and dragged out, but it was just "it moves and was created in unrealistic ways, so we shouldn't assume realistic speeds". I was actually tryna say that the idea that Vulkin made it slower was wrong :v (as those who disagreed with me were arguing "okay monsters can manipulate attacks, why would they do that to make them slower?")
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Alright fair enough. I guess you could say it's sort of like a light/electricity construct not moving at any particular speeds, but given it still basically shoots like a projectile I dunno if that should be the default assumption, I'd consider it acceptable if slightly questionable to say it's moving like ""normal"" electricity. The kind of thing that would be fine on its own but probably better to ignore if it clashes with verse portrayal or whatever (which I don't think is the case here, provided you don't use MHS+)
Agnaa said:
Huh, I thought I made a thread about this but apparently I haven't.

I also just disagree with there being an electricity speed rating in general. We put it around Mach 1 based on pixel-scaling of a video of someone testing an IRL electricity gun, but that evidences that electricity's speed can vary between Mach 1 and Mach 1300, but critically, it doesn't put an actual lower bound on the speed. If it can get over 1000x slower based on a variety of complicated factors, why say it couldn't get another ~100 times slower, putting it in ordinary human range?

But hey, all-in-all, if you think that reasoning sucks, or you'd want a different thread for that, I think your overall view is fair enough.
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I dunno, I guess there's an argument there but I think I'd prefer there being some general, safe-ish value for "assumed electric attack speed", to my understanding it's at least partially related to the amount of energy that goes into the electricity so I think the Mach 1.6 one is basically a lowball in most cases.
 
I am of the opinon that there needs to be a balance between the whole "author's intent" thing, and what is being shown; I can tolerate the "author's intent" for a feat overruling some discrepancies, but personally, if I weighed the presented outcomes on my inner forbearance scale, it would weigh in favor of Agnaa's reasoning. I am not trying to deny the evidence, I aknowledge the thunder statement, and the whole cloud/bolt theme is very compelling, but I think the presentation in-verse is just too divergent to actual lightning as per what Agnaa has described (i.e., it shooting out at like 180 degrees for instance). I agree with the OP.

Obligatory I'm just commenting since I was tagged, and don't have anything against the verse -- since something along those lines was metioned earlier.
 
Agnaa said:
First page is 9-A, so doesn't even meet that standard.

Second page, I can't actually evaluate whether it meets our standards for Lightning Feats, which is, in short, that it either has to be cloud-to-ground lightning, or it has to demonstrate a few properties from among of "making muscles contract", "having an electro-magnetic field", "being shown to move it areal lightning speed", "flowing through conducting materials", "being created by a character who can manipulate real electricity/electromagnetism", "generating ozone", and "causing electrolysis". Plus, if it has properties that real lightning shouldn't have, it should have more real properties from that list to make up from it. And after all that, it also needs to show that it carries at least 1.6 billion Joules or 100 million Volts.

So yeah, your premise that characters who are strong enough have their lightning automatically treated as real is just going against our official standards. Any pages out of line with that should also be revised.
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Electro Dragon uses real lightning, we see baby edrags do that in official vids, electricity in CoC/CR is consistently realistic in portrayal.
I just wanted to say this so I don't get a sudden downgrade to deal with.
 
Armorchompy said:
I dunno, I guess there's an argument there but I think I'd prefer there being some general, safe-ish value for "assumed electric attack speed", to my understanding it's at least partially related to the amount of energy that goes into the electricity so I think the Mach 1.6 one is basically a lowball in most cases.
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Afaik the mach 1.6 is literally a calc of electricity from a wire. Lightning as in cloud-ground or most cloud-cloud ones has a far more consistent speed.
 
Agnaa said:
It's from an electricity gun some YouTuber made. Electricity in a wire goes from 0.42 to 0.99 c, mostly in the 0.6 to 0.8 range.
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In a wire, outside the wire it goes through air which makes the speed different. It's the same case as with light. In a vacuum light travels at 1c while in water it travels at about 0.75c. Electricity travels at near light speed in a wire due to it being conductive but when it hits air it gets very slow. Speed is obviously different based on energy output too. Heck, even visually the speed is already different. Lightning is visually above Mach 1.6. Think about it, a lightning bolt that strikes from a storm that is 3km above ground would've travelled 3km in less than 0.25 seconds as we cannot physically see it move. This alone would make a lightning bolt 12km/s or mach 35.6. So even a mental calc with no slwomo puts the average bolt more than 22x above the electric little bolt we pixel scaled.
 
Armorchompy said:
Honestly I feel that the standards might need some rewording. Most of those aren't really properties of specifically lightning, just electricity in general, so while they're fine to use if something is lightning-like in other ways, I don't think an 8-C standard electricity attack doing stuff like making muscles twitch or conducting like electricity should prove it to be MHS+.
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@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0

Do you also think that our standards need to be modified in that regard, and if so, are either of you willing to handle it? 🙏
 
For the record, I also think that Agnaa and Bambu seem to make sense here. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Do you also think that our standards need to be modified in that regard, and if so, are either of you willing to handle it? 🙏
Click to expand...
I've thought about making a revision for both those and the light/laser ones just to clarify some weird wording and maybe account for a few edge cases, I'm not sure how well it'd be received though.
 
Well, well-considered genuine logical improvements are obviously appreciated. 🙏
 
Actually I guess going over the Lightning Feats page again, it essentially says that any 8-C electric attack is MHS+, which I disagree with but would be a bigger and more controversial revision to undertake, so I'll probably just do lasers.
 
Which staff members have accepted what revisions here so far? 🙏
 
I don't agree with this stuff being lightning speed, so I agree with the OP here.

I've also admit to having problems with our current standards for lightning/electricity feats. But that's all I'll say on this thread, just to make my stance known.
 
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Antvasima said:
Which staff members have accepted what revisions here so far? 🙏
Click to expand...
Agree with OP: 5 (Agnaa, Ant, Bambu, Catz, Rusty)

Feat should be Supersonic, not MHS: 1 (Armor)

Disagree with OP: 4 (Lephyr, DDM, Planck, Mav)
 
One would rarely create an argument one did not themselves agree with (that is to say, voting on your own proposal is allowed, yes- otherwise we would be punishing people for making suggestions by taking away their vote).

That said, Rusty is a CGM, and doesn't have a vote with weight to it here. So really, it's 4-4, with the acknowledgement that Armor is more in line with removal of MHS+ than not (if it comes down to perceiving it like that).

Antvasima said:
Hmm. That is a problem, as there seems to be a split in opinion here.

@DontTalkDT @Agnaa @Mr. Bambu @Catzlaflame @TheRustyOne @Armorchompy @LephyrTheRevanchist @DarkDragonMedeus @Planck69 @Maverick_Zero_X

Are you willing to try to work out some kind of agreement here, while I am away on vacation, please? 🙏
Click to expand...
I don't really know what sort of agreement may work. Either we take it as MHS+ or we don't, there doesn't seem much room for compromise.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Agnaa above said that if we don't reach anything, we'd do a "likely/possibly".
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I suppose that seems like our best available compromise solution then, unless we reach some other, more conclusive, agreement here. 🙏
 
I was hoping to cycle through pinging all staff before calling it with a likely/possibly, but I wouldn't mind if others thought that such a process was futile at this point.
 
If you wanna be transparent at setting a precedent, then just revise the lightning standards rather than just hyperfixating on a single verse, as otherwise people will always complain for whataboutism (when they shouldn't but that's another matter).

I don't think UT breaks any standard as for now, but if you guys make such a big deal about it, then at least be honest and revise how these feats are treated as a whole lol (also because I know at least 3 other verses who are MHS+ over this exact reason, and I'm not gonna tollerate any double standards against verses I debate anymore).
Agnaa said:
I was hoping to cycle through pinging all staff before calling it with a likely/possibly, but I wouldn't mind if others thought that such a process was futile at this point.
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It's been 2 months of constant pinging tho, and I don't think you can be this stubborn.
 
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StrymULTRA said:
If you wanna be transparent at setting a precedent, then just revise the lightning standards rather than just hyperfixating on a single verse, as otherwise people will always complain for whataboutism (when they shouldn't but that's another matter).

I don't think UT breaks any standard as for now, but if you guys make such a big deal about it, then at least be honest and revise how these feats are treated as a whole lol (also because I know at least 3 other verses who are MHS+ over this exact reason, and I'm not gonna tollerate any double standards against verses I debate anymore).

It's been 2 months of constant pinging tho, and I don't think you can be this stubborn.
Click to expand...
Policy is built around example. Our rules as they are would seem to disallow Undertale's use of MHS+- but others feel they do not, thus the need for this to serve as precedent. Nobody is "hyperfixating" on a verse- a verse is being debated as to whether it is an exception to the given rule. Complain and accuse elsewhere, I will have no patience for it here.

As it stands. I would agree that it is a poor solution to slap both interpretations on this. It's a band-aid on a bad wound. I will be satisfied with any ending, as is the agreement one makes when something is up to vote- but that particular ending is particularly disagreeable. Nothing is really decided upon.
 
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Mr. Bambu said:
Our rules as they are would seem to disallow Undertale- but others feel they do not, thus the need for this to serve as precedent
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From my personal experience, this never happens. There's never a "X verse gets downgrade, so Y does too" thing, it's a miracle any time that happens, and in the few cases people dismiss it as whataboutism.

I know nothing has been decided, but mine was just a suggestion that'd make stuff clearly fairer for the wiki as a whole.
 
Your experience is not very much, then. Let's wait and see if more voices come in, or some constructive compromise occurs.
 
StrymULTRA said:
(also because I know at least 3 other verses who are MHS+ over this exact reason, and I'm not gonna tollerate any double standards against verses I debate anymore).
Click to expand...
Gotta say the same thing I always have to, towards allegations of double-standards.
  • I don't debate the verses you'd point towards for that. I debate Undertale, so I'd obviously approach it first.
  • Such verses have their own evidence, which could legitimately have them qualify for their own unique reasons.
  • Maybe I would see them as wrong in the same way. But that wouldn't make them legitimate. They would've arrived in that state in the exact same way Undertale did, so if I want to remove those ratings from Undertale, I'd want to remove them from such other verses too.
StrymULTRA said:
It's been 2 months of constant pinging tho, and I don't think you can be this stubborn.
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Not really, I mostly just forgot about this thread for weeks at a time. iirc I've done 5 ping waves, covering 5/7ths of staff.

Also I'm kinda surprised the opposition to a thread would be disgruntled at me taking more time to ping staff for a more conclusive answer. The longer it takes, the longer the profiles stay unchanged, after all.
 
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