Undertale town level downgrades

[AstroGhost]

What about the spears coming out the ground? frisk is able to dodge them.
Also how comes sans being able to move across the screen and be completely invisible is considered teleportation and not movement?

The spears coming out of the ground create a bluish light before they even leave, which helps Frisk get out of there before.

>Time stop lol<

I think so, Sans also "teleported" to Genocide, and often changed his attacks among others, in addition to throwing you back to the center of the box in your battle

 

[Wokistan]

As for speed, he can Dodge sans' attacks who can Dodge you using a gun if you so choose.

In agreement with ap changes.

 

[Andytrenom]

Is that a real gun though?

 

[Read_this_post]

If frisk gets hit by the spears, he still has the chance to avoid them implying he could still dodge them whilst they come out the ground.

Nothing sans has done has honestly seemed like teleportation. Everything he has shown is closer to spatial manipulation.

Also the gun is an empty gun which frisk fires bullets out of using his imagination (therefore he scales to barney the dinosaur)

 

[AstroGhost]

Yes, now that you've reminded me of the spears, it really makes sense.

Not even where he tells you about killing Papyrus? That we would have a bad time

That part of the gun I did not think would be right. He will always divert everything until we break the rules of the game at the end

 

[Read_this_post]

Pretty sure that is just moving offscreen really quickly. Nowhere is it really implied he can teleport. Plus sans is portrayed as being the fastest monster and the only one who can actually dodge your attacks. Him performing those feats in those scenes is far more consistent with how he is portrayed and is pretty clearly the intent of the situation. Unless teleporting has ever actually been implied.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

As for speed, he can Dodge sans' attacks who can Dodge you using a gun if you so choose.
In agreement with ap changes.

The gun doesn't have bullets in it.

 

[Psychomaster35]

If frisk gets hit by the spears, he still has the chance to avoid them implying he could still dodge them whilst they come out the ground.

Nothing sans has done has honestly seemed like teleportation. Everything he has shown is closer to spatial manipulation.

Also the gun is an empty gun which frisk fires bullets out of using his imagination (therefore he scales to barney the dinosaur)

Ive also thought that it would also be him stopping time when the screen goes black. When he takes Frisk to a place via shortcut even though it seems that they are going the wrong way, in reality, the moment Frisk entered the loading zone and the screen goes black, he stops time, and takes the still frozen in time Frisk to the location. The proof.

More proof hows that he is shown setting up his attacks during his second phase of his genocide fight where he takes Frisks soul and relocates it at a certain point in the box, then presets his attacks before resuming time to have them in motion. The proof.

 

[Read_this_post]

Im getting major Hit vibes off of this. It seems like sans in the second fight you are skipping through parts of the fight whilst doing that. Assuming this is an actual ability sans is pulling off, this seems a lot like he is just forcing frisk to skip ahead in time more than anything.

If sans is going through a non existant "shortcut" and he is just teleporting him and frisk, then he would have no reason to act like it is a shortcut. He wouldnt be able to convince frisk otherwise since frisk will just see grillbys magically appear in an instance. If he is able to do some spatial manipulation and bend it so the area is closer to them, that would give him a legitimate reason to claim it to be a shortcut.

It seems like sans does posess a limited degree of space-time manipulation.

 

[Buttersamuri]

For the gun. It is very much said to be empty. So ni reason to scale them to bullet timers. Checking around tho, I found something that seems interesting and maybe possible "The stars during the attack animation look like the stars serving as SAVE Points in the overworld. An interpretation of the attack animation suggests the conjecture that the protagonist can use their determination as harmful projectiles to substitute the lack of bullets."

Take that how you will tho

 

[Read_this_post]

@Buttersamuri Seems like a little bit too much speculation. They do seem to reuse the same sprite, but it really isnt implied that they are the same manifestations of frisks determination used to save. If anything it looks more like a recycled sprite.

 

[Jaften]

Undyne's spear speed being 90 mph is a bit iffy in justification (especially since she doesn't physically throw them in the scene we're talking about), but it's not a completely unreasonable assumption, so I would be amenable to putting "At least Superhuman, possibly Subsonic" on profiles. I think that's a decent compromise.

Sans is definitely not using superior speed to do his teleportation feats, because as I've brought up before, if he were that much faster than Frisk he would have completely blitzed them in their fight. Same for time stop: he'd completely blitz Frisk if he could stop time. I know that "game mechanics" and "PIS" could be used as counter arguments, but to be honest those are really weak arguments in this case, and shouldn't be used. What's left is a reasonable amount of space manipulation — some form of actual teleportation.

Nix on the empty gun being used for any feats. Not only are the bullets imaginary (but still do damage because of murder intentions hax) but the battle screen is definitely not reliable enough to get distances without just pulling things out of our asses making too many assumptions. That, and I basically have no confidence in the battle screen as a reliable portrayal of events anymore.

 

[Jaften]

Actually, 90 mph (40.2 m/s) is really close to the baseline for subsonic speed (34.3 m/s), and Frisk is definitely slower than the spears, so their speed should be "Superhuman with Subsonic reactions", shouldn't it?

Undyne is faster than Frisk, so she might make it up into baseline Subsonic. That's only if we use "90 mph" as the assumption for the non-thrown spears, which is a little bit iffy.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Yea it does seem iffy even when making assumptions. Only brought it up on the side just in case.

Also. I remember this scene where Undyne actually throws a spear. Frisk can only make a tad bit of movement during it in the date part. May support Frisk not being sub sonic.

3:20

 

[Jaften]

Good point. Undyne actually throwing a spear appears to be much faster than when she just casts them magically.

Seems like the dreams for subsonic UT are dying.

 

[Read_this_post]

For the sans part. It would only scale to sans reaction and movement/travel speed, not his combat and attack speed. Frisk was literally unable to hit him no matter how many times he reset even when he knew sans movements aside from when they broke the rules. Even sans being thousands of times faster wouldnt bring up any contradictions as long as his combat and attacking speed were not significantly faster (although they would still likely be superhuman). And like i said, teleportation is almost never implied and based on how sans is consistently portrayed, their is no reason to assume his movement in those scenes to only be teleportation. And i explained why the exist and everything are more likely teleportation.

Also i do agree with the magical casting thing. However undyne does throw her spear in many instances during her fight and the date. Magically casting spears is only shown when trying to kill frisk from far range. In close combat this is likely different. This should scale to frisk when determined enough to face undyne who was able to dodge the spear.

Based on that it is reasonable to say those around undynes level should be superhuman.

 

[Buttersamuri]

So the are Super human speeds then?

 

[Read_this_post]

Those who scale to a mid determined frisk (who faced undyne) yes. Those who are below, I think they are relatively featless.

 

[Jaften]

>Almost never implied

It's implied pretty heavily, dude. You're pretty much alone in assuming he's faster than the eye. We have confirmation that he has messed with space and time in the past, he uses strange illogical paths to get to distant places near instantly, he can instantly appear on one end of the screen and then the other end in less than a second, he blatantly disappears while right in front of you in the genocide route, teleports you into his attack patterns in the final fight, and also teleports your soul to the center of the screen whenever you try to move to the edge of the bullet box. I'd say that's much better justification for Sans using space manipulation to teleport, rather than being fast. Being fast has basically no justification besides "he can dodge attacks" which isn't very good justification, since he doesn't even need to be that quick to dodge—just comparably fast to the attack.

Additionally, Frisk is able to hit Sans. Yes, only when they "broke the rules", but if Sans was so much faster than everybody else he should have been able to react to and dodge even that last attack, which we have no reason to believe was any faster than their other attacks.

The assumption that "Sans is fast" has poor justification as of right now.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

This is why we should allow Stats to say Likely lower.

 

[Read_this_post]

It's implied pretty heavily, dude. You're pretty much alone in assuming he's faster than the eye. We have confirmation that he has messed with space and time in the past Space time manipulation is not teleportation

He uses strange illogical paths to get to distant places near instantly I already explained why this is spatial manipulation and not teleportation. They are two very different things

he can instantly appear on one end of the screen and then the other end in less than a second, he blatantly disappears while right in front of you in the genocide route Again, not only can this be done with speed alone but the first one cant even be done with the same spatial manipulation he uses to take shortcuts

teleports you into his attack patterns in the final fight and also teleports your soul to the center of the screen whenever you try to move to the edge of the bullet box. This is only a feat of teleporting other people if anything. However still just spatial manipulation.

I'd say that's much better justification for Sans using space manipulation to teleport, rather than being fast. Being fast has basically no justification besides "he can dodge attacks" which isn't very good justification, since he doesn't even need to be that quick to dodge—just comparably fast to the attack. Please dont strawman. I never said he is that fast just because he dodges attacks and that alone makes everything he does movement speeds. My point is that he is consistently portrayed to be the fastest monster in the game being the only one who can do so, dodges to the point where cannot be hit at all without breaking the rules and in addition, his supposed teleportation is only spatial manipulation which would not help him across the screen the way that is shown.

When sans is not only portrayed as being the fastest non immeasurable character in the game and his spatial manipulation does not work on himself in the instantanious way shown during that scene, him being faster than frisk can track (which again is consistent with the characters) is a far more logical conclusion. Plus basing on the undyne spear throwing thing and how frisk and the other characters scale, sans would at least be subsonic anyway via being vastly greater in speed to them going by your logic earlier, since it is already a subsonic, if not extremely close feat.

Additionally, Frisk is able to hit Sans. Yes, only when they "broke the rules", but if Sans was so much faster than everybody else he should have been able to react to and dodge even that last attack, which we have no reason to believe was any faster than their other attacks. You do realise people can be caught off guard right?

 

[Jaften]

Teleportation is a subset of spatial manipulation, and it still has better precedence in Sans's case than him running across the screen at FTE speeds—you actually need to prove that Sans' space manipulation doesn't work on himself, despite the fact that the clearly space-defying shortcut scenes worked on him.

1. Being fast enough to dodge doesn't mean you have to be considerably faster. Just comparable in speed to the attack, with good reactions.

2. Prove it. Prove his space manipulation wouldn't allow him to effectively teleport, considering teleportation is a power that falls under space manipulation. Because right now it sure as hell looks like he can.

his spatial manipulation does not work on himself in the instantanious way shown during that scene, him being faster than frisk can track (which again is consistent with the characters) is a far more logical conclusion.
I don't think it's instantaneous (that is a strawman, speaking of) but I do think he can use it on himself. He can also appear to use it within a fraction of a second, which is about how long he would need to replicate the "both sides of the screen" feat.

Right now, to the best of my knowledge, the consensus is that Sans can essentially teleport using space manipulation. So I'm not the one you'll need to convince here. I think you'll have to make a CRT for this topic alone.

 

[Read_this_post]

Ill get down to this tomorrow. Have almost all day then and im bout to pass out.

 

[Jaften]

Seeing this part agai... yeah, his space manipulation speed would definitely be fast enough to do the feat where he appears to be in two locations with only a fraction of a second of being off screen.

 

[CBtheDB]

So uh... should we get to editing the pages of the Undertale characters now to get them back down to tier 9-to-8, or...?

 

[CinnabarManx421]

We should probably wait to figure out the speed so we can do it in one big edit.

 

[Agnaa]

As for speed, he can Dodge sans' attacks who can Dodge you using a gun if you so choose.

In agreement with ap changes.

Pretty sure you "use the gun" by literally smacking people with it. But this is just from memory.

 

[Jaften]

Pretty sure you "use the gun" by literally smacking people with it. But this is just from memory.

No, you're implied to be using "imaginary bullets" to shoot them.

But that doesn't help with speed, since "imaginary bullets" don't necessarily have the speed of real bullets, and the damage is done via murder intentions hax rather than actual physical damage anyways.

 

[CBtheDB]

We should probably wait to figure out the speed so we can do it in one big edit.

Alright, then, I'll repost my Undyne speed calc here.

http://gfycat.com/NiftyKeenAntelopegroundsquirrel

The overworld sprites for Undertale characters typically depict them nearly 1.3 times shorter than they truly are. Thanks to a few maps of the Underground ripped by redditor rqaa3721, I was able to find the total distance in pixels Undyne had run to be 3,904 feet (1.19 kilometers).

Timing Undyne's exit, Frisk's phone dialing Papyrus's, and his phone ringing, and then counting the words he had spoken before Undyne's arrival, the window of time should be nearly 5.696 seconds.

To run such a distance in that short a time, Undyne had to have a top running speed of 467.3 miles per hour (752 kilometers per hour), or 61.4% the speed of sound.

Subsonic.

How's that?

 

[Jaften]

Not really good, since the time it takes Undyne to get there is tied to calling Papyrus, which you can literally wait to do for hours. So the timeframe is not clear.

...Also it's a gag feat. I don't generally like using gag feats as primary evidence for a rating.

 

[Agnaa]

@CB Does the call happen any quicker if you call Papyrus quicker, or any slower if you call Papyrus slower?

 

[CBtheDB]

@Jaften

@Agnaa

Due to the semantics of gameplay mechanics, I only counted the actual 'cinematics' themselves, and not the manual wait before calling.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

Yeah, I gotta agree the time of the call sounds like Game Mechanics.

 

[Agnaa]

I'm not sure, post it in a blog and mention that, and get some calc group members to evaluate it.

 

[CBtheDB]

I'm not sure, post it in a blog and mention that, and get some calc group members to evaluate it.

I might do that later, though I have somethings other I need to do first. Maybe later tonight or in the morning tomorrow.

 

[Jaften]

Again, I don't like using gag feats for primary evidence. Supporting evidence for other, serious feats, sure that's fine if it's consistent with it, but not as the primary evidence for a rating. Gag feats are notoriously outliers.

 

[Andytrenom]

Other Gag feats being outliers has nothing to do with this one being an outlier. And I don't understand why this is even a gag feat, being comedic=/=being a non sensical gag.

 

[Jaften]

That's a strawman. I didn't say this one was an outlier, I said it was the only piece of evidence supporting this conclusion, which isn't ideal when it's a gag feat.

 

[Andytrenom]

But why is it being considered a gag feat as opposed to just a comedic feat?

 

[Jaften]

What is a gag?