Undertale MHS Downgrade

[StrymULTRA]

This makes the pro-assume-it's-real argument stronger, since there is actual a canonical case of it being done realistically. Vulkin's is even worse, since they lack that. And for Vulkin, the reasons to assume it's not real full-speed lightning are presented in the OP, and all throughout the thread.

This only for you though. Your ""reasons"" are more excuses that try to dismiss all the context and lore the monsters have about emulating the elements, and try to shut down any kind of possibility that these are still going at real speeds, rather than just taking the time to consider both the intent made behind the attack, and the fact that the attack must be used in its most efficient way, aka 0 reasons to say it's lower outside of visuals.

 

[Agnaa]

and the fact that the attack must be used in its most efficient way, aka 0 reasons to say it's lower outside of visuals.

Have you considered the possibility that the attack, differing from reality, may, at its most efficient, only be able to travel slowly?

That's the crux of my point about your baseless assumption that unrealistic attacks are made real and then changed to be unrealistic. We don't know that about the magic system. It's also very plausible that they're made unrealistic from the get-go, and cannot be made realistic due to a lack of skill/magic.

Since we have no evidence distinguishing these possibilities, we should not assume the high-end.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Have you considered the possibility that the attack, differing from reality, may, at its most efficient, only be able to travel slowly?

Why would it? Genuinely, why? Because you say so?

That's the crux of my point about your baseless assumption that unrealistic attacks are made real and then changed to be unrealistic. We don't know that about the magic system. It's also very plausible that they're made unrealistic from the get-go, and cannot be made realistic due to a lack of skill/magic.

Lmao.

Since we have no evidence distinguishing these possibilities, we should not assume the high-end.

Don't use "we", as right now only you are going by this super safe, super strict method. I already explained why we should, and I am feeling like I am repeating myself.

If you still wanna have the last word on this, then peace.

 

[Agnaa]

Why would it? Genuinely, why? Because you say so?

I'm not saying that we should. I'm pointing out an alternative which I don't hold, to highlight the absurdity of the assumption you make with just as little evidence.

Don't use "we", as right now only you are going by this super safe, super strict method. I already explained why we should, and I am feeling like I am repeating myself.

No, our calcs do that sort of thing all the time. We don't pretend that characters in comics only moved 0.00000000001 meters before they were hit, we say that they started moving at the last moment we saw them still, even though there's no more evidence for that than there is for any arbitrarily closer distance.

And hey, it's not just me. Just from the staff, Ant and Bambu agree, and LordGriffin said he thinks I have valid points, but wanted to wait for responses.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'm not saying that we should. I'm pointing out an alternative which I don't hold, to highlight the absurdity of the assumption you make with just as little evidence.

Dude, you're just arguing off belief. You call it absurd, I call it the most logical way, as your option is just to completely negate the feat and pretend it just doesn't exist, when the intent behind it is clear.

No, our calcs do that sort of thing all the time. We don't pretend that characters in comics only moved 0.00000000001 meters before they were hit, we say that they started moving at the last moment we saw them still, even though there's no more evidence for that than there is for any arbitrarily closer distance.

Literal false equivalence, as that's a number pulled out of nowhere, my case instead is a set number gotten by a real value.

Bambu

He said he prefers to wait for me, like Griffin. Aka it's just Ant on your side.

 

[Agnaa]

Dude, you're just arguing off belief. You call it absurd, I call it the most logical way, as your option is just to completely negate the feat and pretend it just doesn't exist, when the intent behind it is clear.

You realise you made this point separate from the intent, right?

rather than just taking the time to consider both the intent made behind the attack, and the fact that the attack must be used in its most efficient way

Bringing up the intent here is circular.

So going based on the rest of it, you're lobbing off fallacies where they don't apply with "arguing off belief", I see nothing logical about taking the highest end with no basis, and it's not completely negating the feat, just disjointing the link to reality in terms of its properties. It can still get properties from other places in the piece of fiction itself; it's a danmaku attack with Vulkin's AP and attack speed.

Literal false equivalence, as that's a number pulled out of nowhere, my case instead is a set number gotten by a real value.

Fair enough. Still, in cases where there's multiple numbers pulled from real values, if there's no evidence making one of them stand out, we defer to the lowest end.

He said he prefers to wait for me, like Griffin. Aka it's just Ant on your side.

Ah yeah, mb.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You're just repeating yourself, and my patience is wearing thin, so I'll avoid replying with the exact same things.

I'll probably reply again when I'll get time, if staff don't decide to reply before I do.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

He said he prefers to wait for me, like Griffin. Aka it's just Ant on your side.

As others are casting votes before this discussion is over (Planck and DDM), I will state plainly that I agree with Agnaa on practically all fronts. I think it is ridiculous to treat the status quo as "super-strict"- we do take the most conservative, reasonable choice, typically meaning the lower end interpretation of feats, in most any affair where such a choice exists. We do require the burden of proof upon those making the extraordinary claim- in this instance, that the shout of "thunder!" indicates real, actual lightning. In this discussion so far, only one of you has represented what VSBW actually tends to embody, that being Agnaa.

I would have preferred to wait for the discussion to end, but it seems to me that my patience is being used to isolate the other argument, as if to say that there is no support for his words. This is obviously untrue, and in posting this I aim to rectify it. Agnaa is blatantly correct, and at every turn the argument has been needlessly aggressive in trying to pummel him away from this.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Idk if you technically implying that DDM and Planck are bad admins for simply agreeing with me is something appropriate ngl.

Edit: Technically if we count Ant's vote, then Lephy's should too, as that's against the downgrade as well.

 

[Minos_the_Judge]

Can't we just say that lightning, even if it is natural lightning, does not have a speed of thousands of Machs, at least because it would be an outlier? The characters of Undertale definitely do not have the speed of MHS+ plot-wise. In addition, all their escapes, etc. occur at very normal speeds, combat speed is only possibly supersonic or hypersonic. I heard that if the feat is one-time or the scale of such a feat with such a result is one-time and is not repeated in the work, then it can be considered an outlier. The exception is if it is not the most direct feat.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Can't we just say that lightning, even if it is natural lightning, does not have a speed of thousands of Machs, at least because it would be an outlier? The characters of Undertale definitely do not have the speed of MHS+ plot-wise. In addition, all their escapes, etc. occur at very normal speeds, combat speed is only possibly supersonic or hypersonic. I heard that if the feat is one-time or the scale of such a feat with such a result is one-time and is not repeated in the work, then it can be considered an outlier. The exception is if it is not the most direct feat.

Outlier would be if it's blatantly contradicted by other showings, or them struggling with less, which did not happen.

Aka no, don't pull arguments made from a certain banned user.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Anyway, the tally rn is:

Agree (2): Antvasima (before the counters), Mr. Bambu

Disagree (3): Lephyr (before the counters), DDM and Planck

Could we say that it's rejected if it takes long enough?

 

[Agnaa]

Edit: Technically if we count Ant's vote, then Lephy's should too, as that's against the downgrade as well.

Yep! It definitely should.

Outlier would be if it's blatantly contradicted by other showings, or them struggling with less, which did not happen.

Yeah I don't get the vibe of it being wild enough to be rejected on that front, especially since it has multiple superhuman speed showings, especially if you use the less strict standards the proponents of this speed rating would use. And I don't remember any real speed anti-feats; racking my brain, closest I can imagine are the timed Mettaton minigames, whose timers seem more for player use and are themselves demonstrably unreal.

Anyway, the tally rn is:

Agree (2): Antvasima (before the counters), Mr. Bambu

Disagree (3): Lephyr (before the counters), DDM and Planck

My vote counts too, btw.

Could we say that it's rejected if it takes long enough?

Naw, these sorts of changes for profiles usually just get dragged in front of increasingly large amounts of staff.

If it does actually remain split 50/50, since it's the sort of case where this should be possible, it'd probably be dropped to a likely/possibly rating.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah I don't get the vibe of it being wild enough to be rejected on that front, especially since it has multiple superhuman speed showings, especially if you use the less strict standards the proponents of this speed rating would use. And I don't remember any real speed anti-feats; racking my brain, closest I can imagine are the timed Mettaton minigames, whose timers seem more for player use and are themselves demonstrably unreal.

The certain banned user used Photoshop Flowey using guns, which is, you know, dumb because you'd be arguing for it being 9-C (other than Flowey then blitzing tf outta Frisk the moment he went serious).

My vote counts too, btw.

Does it? I don't recall staff being able to vote on their own CRTs, but my memory could be betraying me.

Naw, these sorts of changes for profiles usually just get dragged in front of increasingly large amounts of staff.

If it does actually remain split 50/50, since it's the sort of case where this should be possible, it'd probably be dropped to a likely/possibly rating.

The lower end of the feat is 4.86 Mach, with every major character (Undyne in both her forms, Asgore, Toriel, Mettaton, Muffet, Mad Dummy, Great DT Frisk and probably base Flowey) being baseline Hypersonic with Mach 5 via upscaling. Sans and Photoshop Flowey instead would be 6.1 Mach, still going by the calc I linked (or Mach 10, if Frisk's base speed is Mach 5 in those fights).

Just saying in case your thing gets through.

 

[Agnaa]

The certain banned user used Photoshop Flowey using guns, which is, you know, dumb because you'd be arguing for it being 9-C (other than Flowey then blitzing tf outta Frisk the moment he went serious).

lmao

Does it? I don't recall staff being able to vote on their own CRTs, but my memory could be betraying me.

Yeah

It is understood that there may be instances where a staff member has expertise or knowledge of a particular series verse that allows them to confidently approve a revision on their own. It is possible for a staff member to initiate a content revision thread and have their vote counted.

The lower end of the feat is 4.86 Mach, with every major character (Undyne in both her forms, Asgore, Toriel, Mettaton, Muffet, Mad Dummy, Great DT Frisk and probably base Flowey) being baseline Hypersonic with Mach 5 via upscaling. Sans and Photoshop Flowey instead would be 6.1 Mach, still going by the calc I linked (or Mach 10, if Frisk's base speed is Mach 5 in those fights).

Just saying in case your thing gets through.

Thanks for the info! I don't understand the Mach 10 jump though, but that could be discussed later if necessary.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Thanks for the info! I don't understand the Mach 10 jump though, but that could be discussed later if necessary.

Mach 10 comes from the Sea Tea amping the speed to x2, Sans being still generally faster than an amped Frisk, and Photoshop Flowey blitzing Sans.

Now that I think they should be scaling from the x2 of Tsunderplane's MHS+ result by this logic.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Idk if you technically implying that DDM and Planck are bad admins for simply agreeing with me is something appropriate ngl.

Edit: Technically if we count Ant's vote, then Lephy's should too, as that's against the downgrade as well.

No. I'm not. Stop being so accusatory. I'm saying that I would have preferred to wait. And I then said that you were leveraging that to imply nobody agreed with Agnaa. And now I'm repeating it. For clarity's sake.

 

[Agnaa]

Mach 10 comes from the Sea Tea amping the speed to x2, Sans being still generally faster than an amped Frisk, and Photoshop Flowey blitzing Sans.

Now that I think they should be scaling from the x2 of Tsunderplane's MHS+ result by this logic.

I think that's bad, since it's not a usable (stated) multiplier. Still fine to use in calcs for fights where Sea Tea can be used to that effect, tho.

I hope that doesn't become a topic of this thread too

 

[StrymULTRA]

I think that's bad, since it's not a usable (stated) multiplier. Still fine to use in calcs for fights where Sea Tea can be used to that effect, tho.

The thing is already accepted, so you'd need to make a thread for it.

Plus Frisk being at least the speed that's above Tsunderplane during Sans' fight should be a given as they were filled with DT there obviously, and that many times showcased to increase speed, meaning that Frisk being somehow slower than how they were during Undying would be dumb.

 

[Requiem_Yoriichi]

Anyway, the tally rn is:

Agree (2): Antvasima (before the counters), Mr. Bambu

Disagree (3): Lephyr (before the counters), DDM and Planck

Could we say that it's rejected if it takes long enough?

Staff only, right? Because I remember giving my agreement to the RCT.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I still agree with what Strym is arguing, but I do agree with a statement on Bambu about a few posts being "Needlessly aggressive." But more staff views could be reasonable yes.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Staff only, right? Because I remember giving my agreement to the RCT.

Yes. Your vote, just like mine, don't matter.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with Strym's counterpoints.

 

[Requiem_Yoriichi]

So what are the main counterarguments?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Wait, u didn't read the whole thing?

Anyway, in a nutshell, if you're too lazy to read, the monster magic has very minor differences to what it mimics, and there's no reason to assume it'd become slower than the irl counterpart just because it's remodeled as bullets, as that'd be pedantic.

Tho rn it's a 4-3 towards disagreement against OP.

 

[Requiem_Yoriichi]

Wait, u didn't read the whole thing?

Anyway, in a nutshell, if you're too lazy to read, the monster magic has very minor differences to what it mimics, and there's no reason to assume it'd become slower than the irl counterpart just because it's remodeled as bullets, as that'd be pedantic.

Tho rn it's a 4-3 towards disagreement against OP.

I did, but there has been movement with you and Agnaa speaking, so I thought there could have been counterarguments that were countered.

But thank you for the nutshell.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Alright, a week passed since the last post and we have 4v3 staff towards disagreement.

So... what we do here? @Propellus and @LordGriffin1000 were online multiple times, and if they wanted to check this thread, they would've.

 

[Agnaa]

Since staff's pretty split, I'll try pinging more until we find something more decisive.

@Elizhaa @Crabwhale @Zaratthustra @Catzlaflame @KingTempest @Deagonx @Executor_N0 @Psychomaster35 @SeijiSetto

 

[Psychomaster35]

I'm neutral with this feat as there's too many people who keep saying it's real and too many people who keep saying it's not real

 

[StrymULTRA]

Since staff's pretty split, I'll try pinging more until we find something more decisive.

This didn't work, funnily enough.

So... what do do? Rejection, or the likely/possibly thing?

 

[Agnaa]

Just keep pinging~

@Just_a_Random_Butler @Qawsedf234 @Colonel_Krukov @DarkGrath @ElixirBlue @Vzearr @Armorchompy @FinePoint @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @CloverDragon03 @SunDaGamer

 

[ShionAH]

Disagree with OP, Aka the absolute disgusting disrespect to my goat

 

[Armorchompy]

Alright, I tried to read through the thread, here's my thoughts

• The presence of a discussion rule on this topic is very silly- Discussion rules are something that should effectively be in place only for things that are objectively wrong but are a common misconception, not for something that the community has just agreed should be considered a certain way.
• I don't like how people just say random stuff about the opponent's argument and pretend it objectively disproves it. "argument from belief", "appeal to reality"... these aren't real things that anybody has to actually acknowledge. Generally a lot of bad faith argumentation from the opposition too. There's a trend in battleboarding communities to act as though using actual realistic logic/common sense is somehow antithetical to the "right" way of doing powerscaling and I think that should be pushed back on.
• I however also don't love Agnaa's argument of using Asriel's lightning as proof that Vulkin's lightning is not acting realistically and generally arguing that the speed could be... being made slower by Vulkin? I'm not sure I really get it, but I don't know if that should be the default assumption. I can see the idea but I think this was focused on too much and padded out the discussion a whole lot.

With that said, I disagree with Vulkin's lightning being MHS+. If monsters have the ability to shape and control their own magic then it doesn't really make sense to assume that the lightning is actually being originated in a realistic manner by the cloud (its presence alone isn't very strong evidence: the electricity acts unnaturally the second it appears, so why are we assuming it's being created naturally?). Something that hasn't really been discussed enough is that even if the lightning as being made naturally, the fact that it's a tiny lightning bolt coming from a tiny cloud would already invalidate the validity of the feat in the first place because that just wouldn't produce electricity with that kind of speed and power (is the Underground even tall enough to host a realistic lightning cloud?).

One may argue that the 8-B rating on its own justifies the assumption that the lightning is moving at lightning speed... but that clashes with the assumption that we're assuming it's being generated naturally. To elaborate, if (1) Vulkin's lightning is 8-B, and (2) is generating the electricity in a realistic manner, then he would need a much bigger cloud to make lightning. If (1) Vulkin's lightning is 8-B and is (3) generated from a really tiny cloud, he is not generating the lightning realistically (because he'd need a much bigger one for that much energy). If Vulkin is (2) generating the lightning (semi-)realistically (3) from such a tiny cloud, then the lightning isn't MHS or 8-B (because a cloud that size would produce a lot less electricity), and this is an anti-feat (and should either be discarded entirely, or used to downgrade the verse, probably the former in this case).

No matter what there isn't an obvious way for (1) (2) and (3) to all be true, so it doesn't make sense to say there's realistic MHS+ lightning coming from such a tiny cloud. What at best we have here is electricity being magically generated in a way that sort of resembles how electricity is actually produced by clouds, and being sort of like lightning does not in my opinion make you MHS+. To be very clear, this is NOT an argument about the realism of magic electricity in Undertale*, it's an argument about how the electricity is not actually created in a way that makes it analogous to real lightning specifically.

EDIT: To quickly address the counterargument of "If Vulkin isn't generating the electricity realistically, why's he making a cloud to begin with?"... I dunno! It's obviously a reference to real volcanos making clouds, but that doesn't really mean much on its own. Maybe he thinks it's fun, maybe he needs to do it, maybe he's doing it because it's goofy and cartoony and Toby Fox thought it'd be fun, maybe there is a process that actually validates the lightning being treated as MHS+, but maybe not. We can't really know, it's pretty pointless to theorize.

* Indeed I disagree with Agnaa in regards to the feat being completely invalid. It's ultimately an electric attack with magic electricity that's just close enough to IRL standards to be fine to use. I don't find his arguments that the electricity is being shot at sub-natural speeds to be very compelling, and I would definitely consider the feat viable to use with that value.

 

[Agnaa]

Alright, I tried to read through the thread, here's my thoughts

• The presence of a discussion rule on this topic is very silly- Discussion rules are something that should effectively be in place only for things that are objectively wrong but are a common misconception, not for something that the community has just agreed should be considered a certain way.

It's just something that the community has flip-flopped on a lot over the years, imo without good reason. When it got changed from not accepted to accepted, it got changed on 2 staff votes, neither of which were present the previous time it was discussed (despite there being at least 3 staff members who rejected it last time still on the site). I'd like something to be present to make sure that any future alterations grapple with the arguments presented last time; maybe just a note in the verse page's speed section?

• I however also don't love Agnaa's argument of using Asriel's lightning as proof that Vulkin's lightning is not acting realistically and generally arguing that the speed could be... being made slower by Vulkin? I'm not sure I really get it, but I don't know if that should be the default assumption. I can see the idea but I think this was focused on too much and padded out the discussion a whole lot.

Point got a bit muddled and dragged out, but it was just "it moves and was created in unrealistic ways, so we shouldn't assume realistic speeds". I was actually tryna say that the idea that Vulkin made it slower was wrong :v (as those who disagreed with me were arguing "okay monsters can manipulate attacks, why would they do that to make them slower?")

* Indeed I disagree with Agnaa in regards to the feat being completely invalid. It's ultimately an electric attack with magic electricity that's just close enough to IRL standards to be fine to use. I don't find his arguments that the electricity is being shot at sub-natural speeds to be very compelling, and I would definitely consider the feat viable to use with that value.

Huh, I thought I made a thread about this but apparently I haven't.

I also just disagree with there being an electricity speed rating in general. We put it around Mach 1 based on pixel-scaling of a video of someone testing an IRL electricity gun, but that evidences that electricity's speed can vary between Mach 1 and Mach 1300, but critically, it doesn't put an actual lower bound on the speed. If it can get over 1000x slower based on a variety of complicated factors, why say it couldn't get another ~100 times slower, putting it in ordinary human range?

But hey, all-in-all, if you think that reasoning sucks, or you'd want a different thread for that, I think your overall view is fair enough.

 

[StrymULTRA]

One may argue that the 8-B rating on its own justifies the assumption that the lightning is moving at lightning speed... but that clashes with the assumption that we're assuming it's being generated naturally. To elaborate, if (1) Vulkin's lightning is 8-B, and (2) is generating the electricity in a realistic manner, then he would need a much bigger cloud to make lightning. If (1) Vulkin's lightning is 8-B and is (3) generated from a really tiny cloud, he is not generating the lightning realistically (because he'd need a much bigger one for that much energy). If Vulkin is (2) generating the lightning (semi-)realistically (3) from such a tiny cloud, then the lightning isn't MHS or 8-B (because a cloud that size would produce a lot less electricity), and this is an anti-feat (and should either be discarded entirely, or used to downgrade the verse, probably the former in this case).

Stop right here bud. We technically do generally use MHS+ for bolts shot from hands if the dude is strong enough.

 

[Agnaa]

Stop right here bud. We technically do generally use MHS+ for bolts shot from hands if the dude is strong enough.

Is that true? I only remember that being done for cases where characters can both manipulate real cloud-to-ground lightning, as well as shoot it from their hands, in the same way.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Is that true? I only remember that being done for cases where characters can both manipulate real cloud-to-ground lightning, as well as shoot it from their hands, in the same way.

Yes.

Electro (Spider-Man: The Manga)

Electro is an antagonist of Spider-Man in Spider-Man: The Manga. After hitting a kid with his car, he had to pay a settlement of 50,000 dollar's last. He wanted to get the money to pay for the settlement, so he started getting jobs and later ended up leaving all of them. He started to work with...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Electro Dragon

Electro Dragon is a troop in Clash of Clans, He is unlocked at Barracks level 13 at Town Hall 11. His chain lightning ability can take out multiple buildings and upon his death causes Multiple lightning strikes. Tier: At least 8-B, likely higher | At least 8-B, likely higher Key: Level 1 | Max...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[StrymULTRA]

• The presence of a discussion rule on this topic is very silly- Discussion rules are something that should effectively be in place only for things that are objectively wrong but are a common misconception, not for something that the community has just agreed should be considered a certain way.

On this I don't care enough if it's removed or reworded. Though I do see a point here, would be appropriate if it's something like multiple attempts at removing the 2-B ratings of the God Tiers tho.

 

[Agnaa]

First page is 9-A, so doesn't even meet that standard.

Second page, I can't actually evaluate whether it meets our standards for Lightning Feats, which is, in short, that it either has to be cloud-to-ground lightning, or it has to demonstrate a few properties from among of "making muscles contract", "having an electro-magnetic field", "being shown to move it areal lightning speed", "flowing through conducting materials", "being created by a character who can manipulate real electricity/electromagnetism", "generating ozone", and "causing electrolysis". Plus, if it has properties that real lightning shouldn't have, it should have more real properties from that list to make up from it. And after all that, it also needs to show that it carries at least 1.6 billion Joules or 100 million Volts.

So yeah, your premise that characters who are strong enough have their lightning automatically treated as real is just going against our official standards. Any pages out of line with that should also be revised.

 

[Armorchompy]

Stop right here bud. We technically do generally use MHS+ for bolts shot from hands if the dude is strong enough.

"We use" doesn't mean much to me. There's 35000 profiles and nearly a thousand editors active in the wiki's recent history, some people doing it (on fairly niche profiles especially) isn't really evidence of anything (I mean there's a LOT of things you can easily find even on recent profiles that aren't really correct). And in this case I think there's a lot more evidence of the opposite, given that we don't rate... literally every =>8-C verse with electricity attacks as MHS+.

Second page, I can't actually evaluate whether it meets our standards for Lightning Feats, which is, in short, that it either has to be cloud-to-ground lightning, or it has to demonstrate a few properties from among of "making muscles contract", "having an electro-magnetic field", "being shown to move it areal lightning speed", "flowing through conducting materials", "being created by a character who can manipulate real electricity/electromagnetism", "generating ozone", and "causing electrolysis". Plus, if it has properties that real lightning shouldn't have, it should have more real properties from that list to make up from it. And after all that, it also needs to show that it carries at least 1.6 billion Joules or 100 million Volts.

Honestly I feel that the standards might need some rewording. Most of those aren't really properties of specifically lightning, just electricity in general, so while they're fine to use if something is lightning-like in other ways, I don't think an 8-C standard electricity attack doing stuff like making muscles twitch or conducting like electricity should prove it to be MHS+.