Undertale town level downgrades

[CBtheDB]

Also as it clearly behaved like an object with mass, and magic or not, we need to have some kind of basis for determining weight. If it can't have mass it can't touch anything and the like. And we can't assume it's, like, plastic or whatever.

That's true, but you don't get to assume what the materials are when the object clearly isn't made of real materials. That's dishonest, and we collectively can't allow that. This entire CRT is the first place about getting rid of the dishonest calcs in the Undertale section.

I only used titanium as a minimum because it's the lightest metal that's industry grade, and the spears would seem like they'd be metallic in nature despite them not being metal in nature.

Other than that there's no real way to deduce what weight the spears are without just giving them the weight of a standard spear, which is a bit of a stretch.

Nevertheless, I guess I can agree. I'm just happy that Undertale was finally downgraded from town and MHS+, that shit was way too far.

 

[Jaften]

Thank you for agreeing that you were making too many assumptions with the spears.

I also agree that town level MHS Undertale was poorly justified. Sad to see it go but ultimately I think we're on the track to being more accurate in our interpretation of the verse.

 

[DMB_1]

7-C MHS+ to 2-B Undying Undyne and Sans was probably due to the whole hype surrounding Undertale at the time, as well as not paying much attention feats and scaling.

 

[CBtheDB]

So... now that we all can agree... can we finally close this thread and get to work? Is it finally over??

 

[Jaften]

Honestly... yes. I think we're done.

Read This Post will have to make a new CRT specifically about Sans to get his pet theory passed. I wish him luck with that, because I think he's fighting a steep uphill battle.

Other than the question of Sans's speed, I think once we get mod approval we can start editing the profiles?

 

[CinnabarManx421]

I believe so, though maybe we should get at least 1 Beauracrat to list the changes out to and see if they agree.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

I contacted Ant, so, just get ready to list out everything we're changing.

 

[Read_this_post]

So we are not going to give an actual calc on dodging the spear? (going to respond to the other guy in the minute)

 

[CinnabarManx421]

We seem to be agreeing to leave Speed to another Thread.

 

[Read_this_post]

So should we change their speed to unknown for the time being?

 

[CinnabarManx421]

Yes, I believe that would be best for now.

(On this site, speed is kinda the least important stat so not like it will matter too much, plus we should get it fixed soon so it shouldn't be an issue that affects anyone.)

 

[Read_this_post]

Jesus christ. Am i going to have to copy and paste my own arguments? This is the last argument ill make on this thread involving sans.

What part gave your interpretation more credibility than saying that it's teleportation? We know for a fact that he can teleport, so I'll just call Occam's Razor and say that is teleportation too. I never made the argument of occams razor and it doesnt even work for you here. It is not a fact he can teleport. The only thing he has shown that is close is forcing you to return to a specific point. Which is limited and doesnt work on himself.

You give zero proof beyond Sans calling them shortcuts. There is zero reason to differentiate him disappearing from in front of you during genocide, him teleporting your soul around, him teleporting back and forth before Even though papyrus himself has described sans as bending space and their is literally no reason for him to call it a shortcut if he is just teleporting you from a wall to a restaurant in an instant. If he were telling frisk that "he knows a shortcut" and he just walked into a wall and teleported then him saying that he knows a shortcut would not make sense in satire context as frisk would just view himself as instantly appearing in one place without taking any form of route.

Him disappearing is just speed, never once mentioned as teleporting, him

He never once tries to make you believe you didn't teleport but walked, not once. Papyrus directly mentions that he hates how he bends space to skip his traps, and nobody else ever acknowledges it. That isn't proof. Because him walking to the opposite direction is not more plausible even if he were to "shorten space". You literally just proved my point entirely. He is directly bending space to get to certain locations. If he bends the space at grillbys to his location, then yes he would literally be creating shortcuts for himself and those who follow him.

And going back to the occams razor argument. It goes in my favour. Sans has been stated that he can bend space to reach certain locations and skip them (which is spatial manipulation without teleportation). Him taking the shortcut would imply he is also skipping distances the same way that was described before and on top of that is backed up by the fact that he is taking a shorter route. It requires far more speculation to assume he has a teleportation ability which was never directly shown nor described outside sending frisk to the same spot (which is arguably a feat of bending space as well) than it does to say he is bending space to create shortcuts which lines up with his statements.

His other feats of movement cannot be done with space bending (most noteably the stick one) and therefore is more likely a speed feat.

Seriously, did I miss some proof? All I'm seeing is "there is nothing saying that he is not shortening space instead of teleporting" (asking to prove a negative, burden of proof negates that), he calls them shortcuts (Hardly enough proof on it's own. And shortcut can also mean a way to skip something, so... yeah) and that he is trying to hide that he is teleporting (just false, completely. Strawman x3. No, i never made that first argument at all. He is consistently shown through statements that he is shortening and bending space. He could not have achieved supposed teleportation in that scene by bending space. Shortcuts dont involve going from one location to another without any route in an instant. I never said he is trying to hide his teleportation ability. My point is that him teleporting rather than bending space to create a shorter route would completely go against the general idea of him taking a shortcut which he is telling frisk he is taking.

When you go to the annoying dog's room, he teleports in front of you and even questions why your following him, obviously poking fun at the fact that he appeared before you without moving. Papyrus also knows that sans plain skips his traps, and the others don't react to him at all, so no real argument there, either. How does sans asking why frisk is following him prove he is standing still? That if anything would just imply he is actually moving (considering that someone would have to move for you to follow them) and just poking fun at frisks confusion.

 

[Read_this_post]

Ill be able list everything out tomorrow since i can iron out certain explanations. But one thing i am curious about is what to do with the amalgamates durability. They practically ignore all damage taken and im pretty sure they are unkillable to any low tiers.

 

[Jaften]

Amalgamates should have "Unknown", possibly something like "Unknown, likely at least Small Building level"

 

[CinnabarManx421]

That seems good fn.

 

[Jaften]

Makes sense. Even without taking into account their durability oddities due to having supposedly fluidlike forms or whever, the amalgamates are made up of multiple low tier monsters that should scale to small building level, so they should be stronger than low tier monsters just from that.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

It's moments like these where I realize due to their Soul Hax none of this really mattered cause they're still too OP even in a lower Tier. ;-;

 

[Read_this_post]

Amalgamated should just be unknown in durability. They are injected with so much determination that it is really impossible to point a reasonable tier for them. Plus they may have abilities like data manipulation. But I might include abilities of characters when I do the god tier revision

Also mettaton neo ap should be possibly far higher whilst undying should be likely far higher

 

[Jaften]

Sounds about right.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

(Still waiting on Ant, hope you guys got everything we're changing ready.)

 

[This_is_My_Username_was_taken]

Amalgamated should just be unknown in durability. They are injected with so much determination that it is really impossible to point a reasonable tier for them. Plus they may have abilities like data manipulation. But I might include abilities of characters when I do the god tier revision
Also mettaton neo ap should be possibly far higher whilst undying should be likely far higher

Feats > Statements.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

He has no feats so we have to go by statements.

Either that or keep him Unknown.

 

[Read_this_post]

I don't. Because I have to go to bed. But I know every detail to change. If ant unlocks the non god tier profiles tomorrow on my signal, I can quickly edit all of them.

@username Statements in game can't just be disregarded for no good reason. Also undyne has scaling that could put her at a higher tier. But unfortunately her base is so low into 9-A that the wiki likely won't allow that

 

[Agnaa]

I never made the argument of occams razor and it doesnt even work for you here. It is not a fact he can teleport. The only thing he has shown that is close is forcing you to return to a specific point. Which is limited and doesnt work on himself.

Forcing you to return to a specific point is teleportation. We know that he has teleportation to some extent, so why are you assuming his other potential teleportation feats are just speed feats?

Even though papyrus himself has described sans as bending space

Papyrus also described Sans as bending time, but we know that he can't do that. I'd take Sans actually visually teleporting Frisk over an already unreliable joke statement from Papyrus.

and their is literally no reason for him to call it a shortcut if he is just teleporting you from a wall to a restaurant in an instant. If he were telling frisk that "he knows a shortcut" and he just walked into a wall and teleported then him saying that he knows a shortcut would not make sense in satire context as frisk would just view himself as instantly appearing in one place without taking any form of route.

That makes sense as a joke imo. Frisk saw the "shortcut" in the same way that every player did, and I think a lot of players took that as making sense as a satire. They didn't all just go "Now hold on a second, that there was a teleportation, that's not a shortcut, this satire sucks!"

Him disappearing is just speed, never once mentioned as teleporting

How do you know that it's speed? We've seen Sans teleport, but we haven't seen him move at those speeds.

And going back to the occams razor argument. It goes in my favour. Sans has been stated that he can bend space to reach certain locations and skip them (which is spatial manipulation without teleportation).

I don't remember Sans saying this.

It requires far more speculation to assume he has a teleportation ability which was never directly shown nor described outside sending frisk to the same spot (which is arguably a feat of bending space as well) than it does to say he is bending space to create shortcuts which lines up with his statements.

How? It's one unreliable statement for bending space vs one clear teleportation feat.

He could not have achieved supposed teleportation in that scene by bending space. Shortcuts dont involve going from one location to another without any route in an instant.

He could have, and yes they can.

My point is that him teleporting rather than bending space to create a shorter route would completely go against the general idea of him taking a shortcut which he is telling frisk he is taking.

The joke is that there isn't actually a shortcut there (as you can't access it yourself by going back there) and that he's just a powerful being that teleported you.

How does sans asking why frisk is following him prove he is standing still? That if anything would just imply he is actually moving (considering that someone would have to move for you to follow them) and just poking fun at frisks confusion.

It doesn't prove that he's standing still, but since he's shown to have some form of teleportation and hasn't shown high speeds, it should just be assumed that this is teleportation.

 

[Antvasima]

I am extremely limited on time (this is likely to be one of my only comments of the day) and there are a few things I have issue with in the OP, but I don't feel those really matter, since I actually agree on most of the main cast being consistently Tier 9 to possible Tier 8 as opposed to where they are now.

There are some other things in the comments to this thread I find pretty disagreeable, but I really don't have time to care about the specifics right now, and that can be resolved later, if need be. I am fine with the general premise.

The changes that Azathoth has accepted can probably be applied.

 

[This_is_My_Username_was_taken]

I don't. Because I have to go to bed. But I know every detail to change. If ant unlocks the non god tier profiles tomorrow on my signal, I can quickly edit all of them.
@username Statements in game can't just be disregarded for no good reason. Also undyne has scaling that could put her at a higher tier. But unfortunately her base is so low into 9-A that the wiki likely won't allow that

The in game statements are inaccurate.

 

[Read_this_post]

Agnaa a lot of what you said completely contradicts the other guys points or takes mine out of context. I literally never said sans stated himself to have spatial manipulation for example. I said that he was stated to have it by papyrus. Actually read people's comments. Best to wait just for a speed revision

Ant are you fine with unlocking a few profiles tomorrow so I can properly edit all of them based on the revision?

Username The in game statements (asides from joking language) are not in accurate at all

 

[The_Wright_Way]

The in game statements are inaccurate.

Prove it.

 

[Antvasima]

@Read this post

Can you summarise what you want to change, and why?

Also, make sure to read the following pages, so you do not make any mistakes when editing the profiles:

Common editing mistakes

Standard Format for Character Profiles

I do not want to have to spend time on cleanup work afterwards.

 

[Read_this_post]

I'll start in a few hours and edit all of them. I'll be sure to read the mistakes. I'll tell you in about six to eight hours when I need the locked profiles unlocked.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, but a summary of what you are going to do would be appreciated first.

 

[Read_this_post]

Alright so were:

Downgrading every non tier twos to 9-A with the amalgamates and base mettaton being unknown in durability. Their ap and durability is based on the feat of tanking the exploding oven (with lower end being used

Heat resistance is being removed from profiles which haven't shown it through other means other than Holland's.

Speed is unknown for now

Matchups being removed wherever speed was unequal or the ap was roughly the same.

Certain explanations and wording may be changed or removed wherever necessary.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. As long as Azathoth is fine with it, that should be fine.

 

[Read_this_post]

Well their is a chance azathoth might send undyne the undying back to unknown, plus i may also rework frisks profile and divide him into two seperate keys. One with low-high determination and one with full determination.

Anyway. The profiles that are need to be unlocked:

Underground (Undertale)

Chara

Frisk

Sans

Flowey

Ill edit the others and then tell you to unlock the rest. either that or you can unlock them now and i take a little while to edit them. Your choice.

 

[Andytrenom]

Why does Chara need to be unlocked?

 

[Read_this_post]

She has a massively hypersonic speed rating before immeasurable

 

[Andytrenom]

Oh

 

[Antvasima]

I have unlocked the pages. Tell me here when you are done.

 

[Read_this_post]

Just so you guys know, im changing terms like late game frisk since it doesnt define his strength. Those who scale around undynes level would scale to a mid determination frisk. High determination would likely be asgore and above. and low determination would be some lower tiers.

Everyone fine with this? Or is there better wording you may suggest? Mew mew is a good example of this

This may take a couple of hours to do btw.

 

[Read_this_post]

Also on the mettaton explanation, should i get rid of scaling frisk and asriel to humans? The seven humans thing is a lacking explanation and azathoth feels comfortable with neo being placed below tier 2 anyway.