Lou_change
He/Him- 10,190
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Wouldn't they have been wearing ice skates and on ice making it it a lot easier to knock them down.
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Undertale 0-3 ATK/DEF Buff
- Thread starter Monsters_fight
- Start date
- Status
- 264
- 80
- Thread starter
- #42
It isnt inconsistent, Sans could be in the same tier as Asgore, only way lower. We don't know how big the gaps between stats are so there is no reason to think it would be wrong to put them in the same tier.
A character can be massively weaker than other character and still be in the same tier
We shouldn't null the 8-B scaling for 4-17 stats, it was already proved they should scale to 8-B too, monsters with lower stats can harm characters with higher stats and they should scale to them.
It isn't weirder to think all characters from 0 should become 8-B than to think a character with 17 stats is 9-A but one with 18 is 8-B
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- #43
At this point I already gave up with that argument. Maybe I should edit the thread
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- #44
Sans physical weakness doesn't disappear just because he is in the same tier as Asgore, he is still massively below him, but still on the same tier
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It's mostly due to potrayal. Sans being somehow still comparable to the strongest monsters is definitely nonsensical and breaks the verse's narrative.
Frisk could harm Photoshop Flowey despite being far lower (and don't pull the "but PF is only x6 stronger" as the SOUL boost is exponential, Flowey is waaaaay above x6).
Fiction is this fucky tbh. Dragon Ball has this kind of weird tier gaps iirc.
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,512
- 3,992
I just reached Shyren, Papyrus kept folding me lol
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- Thread starter
- #47
I mean, Asgore could be hundreds of times stronger than Sans and both of them could still be in the same tier, it really isn't nonsensical. Sans was stated to be the easist enemy and all but that doesn't mean he is 7 trillion tiers below Asgore. + I already told we don't know how big the gaps are between the stats.
Wasnt it because Frisk had help from the human souls? Plus, I don't think this applies here, because lower characters can deal multiple hits in stronger characters and the lower characters are able to tank a few hits too, so it would be stupid if there was a huge tier difference between them.
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- #48
Cant I just say Sans and Asgore are in the same tier and just say its because fiction is this fucky sometimes?
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8-B/100 is not 8-B lol.
They could still deal 1-2 damage to him without said help.
I mean if you wanna do something like this then go ahead lmao.
This is why you have to use Flowey's time machine tbh.
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- #50
Ok. But couldn't I still argue Asgore is tens of times stronger than Sans while both are at 8-B? Again, stats arent linear and the gaps are unknown, so I can argue the difference between their power fits in 8-B.
And this being weird wouldn't be a problem, because like I said before we can argue the difference still fits for the tier
Weaker characters damaging and tanking attacks from stronger characters and being in way lower tiers than them is more "fucky" than sans being in the same tier as Asgore imo
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Also, if we wanna go by pure feats...
- Sans' moves bones at high speed: 9-B (1 ATK)
- Chara falls in the Underground: 9-B (0 DEF)
- Snowdin dude throws a ice cube: 9-B (less than 18 ATK)
- Frisk tanks the oven explosion: 9-A (0 DEF)
- Ice Cap creates ice cones: 9-A (11 ATK)
Just check from where 8-B starts man... It begins at 11 Tons, and the feat we're talking about is 17 Tons.
Consistency comes first though.
It just means the verse does not treat the difference in tiers like real-life does.
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- #52
Flowey´s feat is 17.8 TNT Tons, but Asgore is way stronger than Flowey. I can argue Sans is baseline 8-B and that Asgore scales higher than 17.8 unknown times
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- #53
If no one has any arguments to help me then I guess I will close my thread
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,512
- 3,992
Flowey is kinda in a nebulous area scaling-wise, all that we really know is that he can nearly one-shot an off-guard BoG Frisk and is far inferior to Asgore.
And on the bright side, sans being 8-B would remove the inconsistency of him SOUL haxing a SOULess being.
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,512
- 3,992
sans can also deal 1 damage to Genocide Frisk with his full-force telekinesis, so I guess that sorta counts?
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Nah nah we continue arguing, given we're still discussing about the downgrade now.
Going to call some staff here for this.
This is a nothingburger tbh.
Inconsistency? I'd call it more a feat for Sans' hax.
Frisk also deals 1 damage to Photoshop Flowey too.
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- #57
If I cant argue they scale 8-B because they can harm 8-B characters or can survive attacks from 8-B then how am I supposed to prove they are 8-B? Harming a 8-B or survive their attacks would usually be enough
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,512
- 3,992
Flowey's just one big ? scaling-wise. For all we know, lad only has like 10 ATK or something.
Unless sans has Nonexistent NPI, it sorta defies all logic.
And Frisk deals no damage to Box Mettaton.
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Anyway yeah, this is very tricky as Dragon Ball also makes character downscale if their power level is close enough/they have feats of fighting back these characters. I'll have to think a reasonable way about this.
Giygas also can mindhax mindless stuff. So nah.
A far weaker Frisk*
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- #60
Can't we say they are At least 9-A, possibly 8-B at most?
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My main problem with this is that Undertale is a videogame, thus it works under the issue of fodder enemies being able to deal chip damage to the playable characters despite them having no business being comparable to the bosses (something that Sans makes a reference to, remember), meaning that we're going in very muddy waters given that Undertale blends a lot game mechanics and canon lore.
Honestly I have no idea, I can see Sans being a "At most 8-B" tbf, it just feels weird.
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,512
- 3,992
That doesn't really change anything?
It's listed as an Immunity to Soul Manipulation in Flowey's page, it should not work.
Okay? That still sorta proves that the gap between sans and Genocide Frisk/Photoshop Flowey and Frisk is a lower than the one between Box Mettaton and Frisk.
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I mean, normally normal objects wouldn't be affected from mind hax, given they lack one.
Sans is just built different and does not care about your pre-conceptions of what a hax should be.
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- #64
If so then would the others 0-17 be at most 8-B too?
Being weird is not a problem, because again we can say its weird a character with 17 stats being 9-A but a 18 one being 8-B
But Frisk at their weakest has worse stats than the fodder enemies, so them damaging Frisk wouldn't be a problem.
We can just argue the high-tier monsters are stronger than the low tiers by a small difference
Plus, they are only far weaker than the bosses because the bosses have way more HP, Papyrus has 680 HP but if he had like 100 HP he would lose to monsters like Final Froggit
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,512
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Ooooooooooor... Flowey's just fodder :'P
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Yeah... It's a weird thing as some verses do scale mobs to boss' tier (eg. Kingdom Hearts)...
I'd need to think more, put me as neutral until I get a final stance.
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- #67
Lou_change
He/Him- 10,190
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Is this just because flowey is wary of sans we have evidence KARMA is a physical substance with the flavor text "KARMA coursing through your veins."
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Tbh a way to properly see through this is just seeing what is mostly consistent about their durability, as HPs aren't exactly the most reliable metric.
Seeing just how many hits those characters take before dying:
I'd say that Shyren and Moldsmal are outliers here. Lesser Dog I have no idea what to do tho.
Even if though... would this be a good reason to scale anyway? I mean, Asgore takes only 90 damage from us, Undying not even 900, would using ATK 0 Frisk be a genuine basis here?
It's true that Frisk's DT changes their stats depending on the monsters, but using this kind of scaling is telling that it does not change at all, and it makes bosses way harder than they're supposed to be imo.
Seeing just how many hits those characters take before dying:
- Moldsmal (0 DEF): 2 hits
- Vulkin (0 DEF): one-shotted
- Dummy (0 DEF): one-shotted
- Shyren (0 DEF): 3 hits
- Whimsun (0 DEF): one-shotted
- Ice (0 DEF): one-shotted
- Lesser Dog (2 DEF): 2 hits
- Ice Cap (4 DEF): 2 hits
- Dogami (5 DEF): 7 hits
- Migsosp (5 DEF): 2 hits
- Woshua (5 DEF): 3 hits
- Froggit (5 DEF): 1 hit
- Doggo (7 DEF): 3 hits
- Gyftrot (8 DEF): 6 hits
- Greater Dog (8 DEF): 7 hits
I'd say that Shyren and Moldsmal are outliers here. Lesser Dog I have no idea what to do tho.
It's true that Frisk's DT changes their stats depending on the monsters, but using this kind of scaling is telling that it does not change at all, and it makes bosses way harder than they're supposed to be imo.
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,512
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Both Ice and Whimsun are sparing us, so I don't think those two work as examples.
fr fr
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Yeah, it basically goes to butt into the issue of "would Goombas scale to Mario" or if fodder enemies would scale to high end feats for simply dealing chip damage to the playable character.
8-B for monsters this weak feels like causing complications ngl.
Outside of this system, the only real reasons of behind why this scaling got accepted are:
- Napstablook damaging Mad Dummy.
- Snowdin Frisk harming Jerry.
Frisk also takes a similar amount of blows to take down Papyrus, mind you.
With this in mind... I think that it's just more appropriate to axe the scaling for 4-17. Why?
It'd make the scaling way less complicated, and would establish that there's indeed a gap between the characters, other than an actual power progression that Frisk does through the game (as their DT is still relevant in the narrative, this method we're using literally pretends it doesn't exist).
Though considering that Ice Cap's feat is the highest in 9-A, would 0 still backscale using this logic?
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- #72
We still dont need to axe the 4-17 scaling since they are consistent with how many hits they need to get killed, unlike the monsters with 0 DEF
And I still don't see how there would a huge gap between 4-17 and 18-beyond.
Its weird stats having a huge gap randomly between 17 and 18.
Also
Cant we use that logic every time a weaker character harms a stronger character?
It would be simplier for all monsters to be 8-B than to be a random huge gap between 17 and 18 stats
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Chip damage isn't exactly the most relevant argument though.
Anyway, as I said I'm neutral, I'd be more in favor with axing it, but
This lowkey makes sense lol.
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- #74
Every character with at least 2 DEF has consistency with the amount of they need to get killed so I propose this:
0-1: At least 9-A, possibly at most 8-B (Undynes oven feat + some 0 def monsters can tank a few hits)
2-17: At most 8-B (Napstablook harms mad dummy + characters from 2 DEF have consistency on the number of hits to get killed)
18 and Beyond: Floweys feat
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Tbh 0 DEF monsters are more consistently than not shown to be one shotted, we never do "X possibly Y" when we go with inconsistent stuff.
Feat-wise 0 is also generally just 9-B to 9-A, so I'd say that Moldsmal and Shyren are outliers here.
2-17 are ok tho.
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- #76
I know I have said this already, but Im going to repeat myself
Sans and Asgore being in the same tier is not a problem, because the gaps between stats are UNKNOWN.
You can argue a monster with 80 ATK/DEF is 1 trillion times stronger than a monster with 1 ATK/DEF and I can argue a 80 monster is only 2x stronger than a monster with 1 stats, because the gaps are unknown and it doesn't really matter.
If Sans got a 8-B calculation feat we wouldn't put Asgore in 8-A or 7-C
- 264
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- #77
So:
0-1 9-A, 2-17 At most 8-B and 18 and beyond 8-B?
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Pretty much.
This would change basically just... 2 characters.
Monster Kid becomes At most 8-B, and Lesser Dog's dura becomes that too.
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,512
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Moldsmal can also fight alongside Waterfall monsters, we should probably upgrade em too
- 264
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- #80
What does Jerry have to do with Alphys being unable to get upgraded?
I honestly don't see why couldn't we upgrade her
Couldnt we at least make "At least 9-A, possibly at most 8-B"?
She should be comparable to Sans in the worst options and she should be at least stronger than Monster Kid
Not to mention she has mettaton attacks
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