Undertale town level downgrades

[MrKingOfNegativity]

So is this an appropriate moment to ask "Who's mans is this?", or...?

 

[Agnaa]

Good points from OP, let's see where this goes.

 

[Psychomaster35]

I see your point, and I agree.

 

[AstroGhost]

Well, what you have decided? (A summary for the last 24 hours per gift)

 

[Read_this_post]

Waiting for crimson to make a calc on the fireball. It might be city block level or somewhere around that area

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

About damn time.

I was actually planning on making this thread myself but didn't have the energy to debate it seeing as I was already occupied with Steven Universe and RWBY.

I agree with the OP all the way. 7-C Undertale was always inflated and based on sketchy calculations.

 

[Jaften]

What do you guys thing of nixing the lightning feat, too?

 

[DMB_1]

>No natural lighting
Wouldn't this downgrade speed too?

 

[Read_this_post]

Yeah. Apparently undertale borderline featless in terms of speed without the lightning.

Speaking of which, sans is gonna need a lot of his matches removed.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Would Pyrope's explosions be a 9-B feat?

 

[Read_this_post]

Most likely yes.

 

[Paul_Frank]

someone go revise or delete gaster's profile as well

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Speaking of which, sans is gonna need a lot of his matches removed.

Really?

Doesn't his attacks ignore durability anyways?

 

[Jaften]

On that note... UT durability may actually not scale to their AP, since all magical attacks target the SOUL rather than the physical human body (and to the best of my knowledge monster magic has no physical destruction feats, just durability feats of tanking non-attack damage sources), and humans kill monsters through conceptual damage via "murderous intentions" and LOVE, which would qualify as durability negation...

UT may actually have "unknown" AP, guys. Except for the god tiers who delete timelines, of course.

 

[Jackythejack]

Speaking of which, sans is gonna need a lot of his matches removed.

Really?
Doesn't his attacks ignore durability anyways?

His attacks generally ignore durability or at least that's how we've always taken it so it doesn't matter much unless there's a good reason.

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah. Apparently undertale borderline featless in terms of speed without the lightning.

Speaking of which, sans is gonna need a lot of his matches removed.

There's still the napstablook closing the curtains feat, right?

 

[Jaften]

There's still the napstablook closing the curtains feat, right?

Naw, that's an obvious gag feat.

Light doesn't knock on the door, anyways.

 

[DMUA]

Undertale's idea of a SOUL is both physical and nonphysical.

Monsters are made of tangible magic, as is their soul, but Humans are made of water, making them far stronger.

So in a sense, it's both negating dura via attacking their being, and tackling dura via physically hitting them

 

[Sans2345]

I agree with lesser dog's tier being multi-city-block via extending his neck, monsters stats is not properly scaled and undyne cannot one-shot papyrus


Also with sans knowing about timelines would that be a power or a ability or really his intelligence?


Sans can just tell how many times he killed you just by looking at your facial expression

 

[Agnaa]

Also with sans knowing about timelines would that be a power or a ability or really his intelligence?

Sans can just tell how many times he killed you just by looking at your facial expression

Intelligence. It's implied that he knows about other timelines through technology rather than an innate power of his. Him looking at Frisk's facial expression is an intelligence feat too.

 

[AstroGhost]

There's nothing to increase Undertale's speed, then?

Is there any value to varying electricity? Example, that of Mettaton must give something (even if it is subsonic at least)

I remember having read that electric speed of apparatus varies from Mach 1.1 Mach 11

 

[DMUA]

User blog:Lina Shields/Speed of Electricity

Electricity is still Supersonic, so there's that.

 

[Sans2345]

Also with sans knowing about timelines would that be a power or a ability or really his intelligence?

Sans can just tell how many times he killed you just by looking at your facial expression

Intelligence. It's implied that he knows about other timelines through technology rather than an innate power of his. Him looking at Frisk's facial expression is an intelligence feat too.

Yeah sans knowing how many times he killed the player just by looking at their facial expression is an intelligence feat.

 

[AstroGhost]

User blog:Lina Shields/Speed of Electricity
Electricity is still Supersonic, so there's that.

So, would you give the MTT electricity at that speed, or not?

 

[DMUA]

Yeah, I think it would be okay to go

Electricity is way less strict then lightning

 

[AstroGhost]

That's nice

 

[Jaften]

Undertale's idea of a SOUL is both physical and nonphysical.
Monsters are made of tangible magic, as is their soul, but Humans are made of water, making them far stronger.

So in a sense, it's both negating dura via attacking their being, and tackling dura via physically hitting them

However, this makes determining AP in Undertale a problem.

Magical attacks target the human's SOUL and don't (to the best of my knowledge) have any physical feats themselves. Human attacks target the monster's body, but it's clear that most of the damage is in some way conceptual and bypasses durability via murder intentions. Magical attacks are only ever used on a monster once as far as I can remember—Flowey destroys Asgore's soul. However, this can't reliably be used for AP, since it's still a soul-targeting attack, and said soul is confirmed to be unstable (boss monster souls will fall apart on their own after a few seconds if the monster's body is destroyed, so we can't assume the monster soul in that state has the same durability as the monster when healthy). Magical attacks are used on Flowey—in the beginning of the game, Toriel hits him with a fireball—but Flowey has a physical body (a flower), and has no soul. This still doesn't help us scale the power of the attack since it doesn't seem to actually harm Flowey beyond knocking him off screen, and the fireball doesn't have any physical feats besides knocking a flower off screen (a low human level AP/lifting feat).

All of this means that scaling Undertale attack potency is tricky business, since there is no justification I am aware of that would make physical durability equal to soul durability.

TL;DR [Physical] Durability and Attack Potency do not seem to scale to each other in Undertale, which makes our job harder.

 

[DMUA]

I think we should just take a simplistic mindset, just like the game does

It's a both physical and non physical attack, so it would apply to them taking the hits, along with them resisting the hax.

Not that complicated to figure out overall.

 

[Crimson_Azoth]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Crimson_Azoth/Undyne's_house_goes_kablam_-_Undertale

I eat my words, 9-A fireball. DMUA, can you have a look?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Undertale's idea of a SOUL is both physical and nonphysical.

That's certainly not what I was informed of on other threads, although I agree.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I agree with lesser dog's tier being multi-city-block via extending his neck, monsters stats is not properly scaled and undyne cannot one-shot papyrus

Except as the OP pointed out the feat is both impossible to perform in the Underground and is mostly just an extended joke. I'd rather there be like three or four 8-A feats before I even consider using that as a supporting feat.

honestly most Kinetic Energy feats should have support before we make every MHS+ character Tier 7 via moving but eh

 

[DMUA]

That's certainly not what I was informed of on other threads, although I agree.

Other threads are often wack, so, expected.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Gotta agree with these downgrades. It's about time this happened tbh.

 

[Andytrenom]

About Mettaton's feat. I don't think it's legit anymore.

The calc assumes the volume of destruction is the same as the empty space opened up after the feat. But, if that space used to be solid steel/iron before the destruction, then where was Mettaton standing before making his entrance?

the hole doesn't lead all the way to the other side of the wall, so the most likely place for Mettaton to be was in the space itself which would have to be empty from the beginning.

So I guess the "staged destruction of a fake wall" interpretation is a lot more likely than I first thought.

 

[Read_this_post]

@jaften I have to disagree with you on that analogy. Monsters as shown through dialogue have been known to fight each other with physical ap. Asgore and undyne fought and asgore without trying, stomped undyne at least as a kid. Monsters dont negate your durability through their soul hax alone. Frisk takes the attacks which are affecting both him and the soul at the same time.

Even when attacking monsters you do physical damage to them as well as soul based damage. And this varies depending on the persons attack and defence which is strength and durability related. People in undertale do attack the soul, but they dont negate durability in the process since everyone takes soul attacks as if they were normal.

The only one who might neg durabiltity to a degree is maybe sans? Although all he really does is spam high speed attacks and poison you plus damage the soul a little more. Also im not to sure what went on with karmic retribution.

 

[Read_this_post]

I didnt expect the feat to be so low end for small building level. But going by this pretty much all the low tiers would be small building level. Mettaton neo should get a possibly higher rating for ap.

For undying the undying, i think their is an argument for her being able to one shot asgore and toriel which could put her at building level. If not then she would be at least small building level likely far higher unless she just remains at unknown.

 

[Andytrenom]

You ain't getting tier jumps off of a feat this low.

 

[Read_this_post]

You ain't getting tier jumps off of a feat this low.

Well what i mean is that in genocide, frisk is able to one shot toriel with his intent to kill and later with even greater intent, fought undyne the undying. Toriel should have the ap to one shot a minimally determined frisk or regular monster as explained earlier.

But if not then i supposed at least 9-A likely far higher is more suitable for undyne the undying if she isnt just left unknown.

 

[Andytrenom]

Undyne the Undying will scale very far above this feat I'm not denying that. I'm just saying that unless she is already close to the next tier even the biggest scaling chains won't get her out of 9-A.

 

[Read_this_post]

Not sure why that has to be the case. But if there it wont work then i supposed a likely far higher rating should be given.

All we need to do now is discuss speed and wait for azathoth to comment. He has said he will check it out soon.