Trick or treat, give me a 2-B Sonic

[Antvasima]

I have been told that this thread has turned too toxic and should be closed.

Also, if DDM and Matthew have rejected this, it cannot be applied.

 

[Theuser789]

Wait no, it should not be closed, the toxicity died down and it only started because Matt came in calling people wankers without a refute

It doesn't matter who agrees, it's the arguments, and DDMs arguments are being argued right now and Matt hasn't even argued

Due to how big this thread is it needs way more staff input besides simply closong It, only Cal, DDM, Sera and Matt comented, and only the latter two disagreed abd only DDM argued which is being refuted

Don't close this before everything is discussed

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Wait no, it should not be closed, the toxicity died down and it only started because Matt came in calling people wankers without a refute
It doesn't matter who agrees, it's the arguments, and DDMs arguments are being argued right now and Matt hasn't even argued

Due to how big this thread is it needs way more staff input besides simply closong It, only Cal, DDM, Sera and Matt comented, and only the latter two disagreed abd only DDM argued which is being refuted

Don't close this before everything is discussed

Agreed. Please don't close it until everything is discussed

 

[Mephistus]

There is a thread arguing against 3-A Majora and even then it was only 3-A not Low 2-C that was accepted; plus the dream worlds in Sonic Shuffle again simply said, become reality, not alternate reality nor a reality; just reality. As in a piece of reality rather than a whole reality. That is literally 100% what the context "Become reality" mean without more elaborate words.

Piece of reality aint the translation, you are spinning headcanon here.

A reality that stated to mirror a universe is a universe.

Mirroring reality is literally another way to define alternate reality.

The individual dream worlds themselves are proven to hold a multi-galactic sky akin to a cosmos, buffering that.

 

[Genericstickman]

well I might as well mention the fact that Magineryworld is the dream of Illumina and its implied to be created by the Precious Stone going by the fact that after it was shattered it was stated that all dreams would be erased, this includes Magineryworld

 

[Theuser789]

I might no longer associate myself with Sonic anymore in the powerscaling scene due to how toxic it became, but I am still in touch with people that does debate it. And I have been watching them behind the scene, working diligently on preparing this. This project has been a long time coming, and to even suggest closing this before the arguments reached their climax or to a proper conclusion, would be the ultimate insult to their hard work. I don't care if I don't have a shade of green in my name, I'm not gonna let this die off until it reaches a suitable ending where it's yes to the upgrade or not. No more stalling.

Reposting this

Also geez, I wake up and everything is throw into Chaos

But just because Matt and DDM said no doesn't mean the thread should be closed, DDM himself said the quality of the arguments matter, so just because they said no doesn't mean it has been rejected since their arguments are being refuted, we just need more opinions, the other two staff here, Cal has agreed because he doesn't care anymore and Sera is neutral, so it shouldn't be closed yet

 

[Antvasima]

Well, you can ask Dark649 and Sera EX to comment here again if you wish. Are there any other staff members who are interested in Sonic?

 

[Theuser789]

I can do that, and Celestial Pegasus and Dragonmetx (Sorry if I said it wrong, the Digimon one) have commented on Sonic threads recentely, I have also seen Executor comment on game Sonic threads before

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Then you should ask them as well. However, this thread is quite long, and will likely not be possible to read through for them. Perhaps Medeus would be willing to start a new one with a summary in the beginning before they are requested to get involved?

 

[Theuser789]

I fell that both the opposition and the people in favor should make resumes of what is happening, not just DDM

 

[Antvasima]

You can write summaries after he has restarted the thread.

 

[Theuser789]

It should be written here and DDM should include it in the OP of the new thread togheter with his summary of why he disagrees

 

[Antvasima]

That seems impractical.

 

[Theuser789]

What I meant is that this way both of them will be in the OP intead of writting afterwards, so DDM writtes his and copy pasta ours

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I've remained neutral throughout this turbulent thread and tbh the amount of logical fallicies is stunning; a thread that had weeks of effort put into making it was getting to the point it was threatened to be taken down just because a couple of folks rejected it (one of which gave 0 constructive points to the debate) and because a minority of folks got heated? (despite the majority being very calm while giving their points).

I honestly don't know what to say tbh, just wow... :/

Let's conclude the argument for sanity's sake please!.

 

[Antvasima]

Possibly, although it depends on the quality of the summaries.

 

[Theuser789]

I will ask Shadow to make a summary of why Maginary World is 2-B since he was the one who made the thread

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I respectfully disagree. There is one out of context cutscene that talks about Imaginaryworld having a bunch of worlds (Dreams). Treating these dreams as full-fledged universes is wank.

 

[Genericstickman]

I mean I did say something back their but whatever

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also jesus f christ, mate. Look at how bile-inducingly toxic things were up there. Guess it ain't just me, huh?

 

[Greenshifter]

@Matthew They do have prove of them being at least galaxy sized, I think the main problem here is that they are not confirmed to be space-time continuūms, do you think being stated to exist separately from one another is enough evidence for them being causally closed from one another?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No it's absolutely not.

Low 2-C Room of Spirit and Time Now? Pocket / Parallel dimensions obviously have space-times but that does not mean that they are the size of universes. This is basic stuff.

 

[Theuser789]

I respectfully disagree. There is one out of context cutscene that talks about Imaginaryworld having a bunch of worlds (Dreams). Treating these dreams as full-fledged universes is wank.

This was already explained multiple times above Matt, like this is not a new point already explained, can you stop calling things you disagree being wank please? Also the whole point is that your atitude started the toxicity, other threads went just fine and this thread as well even with DDM posting refutes, so it's not because everyone was agreeing or echo chambers or whatever

Anyways let's do what Ant said and make summaries and discuss this in another thread, which will hoppefuly be better

 

[Theuser789]

@Matthew They do have prove of them being at least galaxy sized, I think the main problem here is that they are not confirmed to be space-time continuūms, do you think being stated to exist separately from one another is enough evidence for them being causally closed from one another?

Yes, they exist separately and they only go through each other via portals so yes, they have diferent space time, this is not a quilted universe

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No. 789, what is so wrong about simply stating that I disagree with a conclusion and consider something to be wank? It's not like I'm insulting your person or your family unlike what some other people seem to have been doing (Jesus, people even brought N-Word and R-Word into this, how pathetic can it get?).

After all, I just disagree with the conclusions you or anyone else can take. I don't agree with the given explanation that attempts to explain that Maginaryworld is a multiverse, so I call it as it is: It not being a multiverse. I don't have to accept your conclusion and move from there. Doing so will only put my side of the debate on a deliberate disadvantage

 

[Greenshifter]

Even if they were 3-A or High 3-A sized individually, it wouldn't be enough to make them 2-B.

Do you agree with this as well or do you think if they can prove the individual dreams are 3A in size, that a 2B upgrade can be made?

 

[Theuser789]

Because calling things wank but not arguing for it or posting reasons aside from I said so is disrespecteful, we don't see people calling each other downplayers because they disagree with a upgrade

Of course you can disagree, but instead of saying no you are wrong Sonic wanker, you could post actual arguments and refutes of why you are right, I can assure you if your arguments are good upgrades you call wank won't go through if you do this

 

[Mephistus]

World is being used synonymously with the term universe here going by Illumina's separate dimension already, even going by the numerous times Lumina / the cast calls the all seperated dreams that they visit worlds.

I'd appeal to Lumina's knowledge more so here, but the fact is that she doen't differentiate between the size of Lumina's dimension and just straight up call each dream they visit worlds and not some other term.

It should be clear enough even with out all the further supporting evidence that each dream is its own reality/universe.

 

[Antvasima]

I respectfully disagree. There is one out of context cutscene that talks about Imaginaryworld having a bunch of worlds (Dreams). Treating these dreams as full-fledged universes is wank.

This seems to make sense to me.

 

[Genericstickman]

well I might as well mention the fact that Magineryworld is the dream of Illumina and its implied to be created by the Precious Stone going by the fact that after it was shattered it was stated that all dreams would be erased, this includes Magineryworld

...

 

[Theuser789]

This was already explained multiple times above Matt, like this is not a new point already explained, can you stop calling things you disagree being wank please? Also the whole point is that your atitude started the toxicity, other threads went just fine and this thread as well even with DDM posting refutes, so it's not because everyone was agreeing or echo chambers or whatever

Anyways let's do what Ant said and make summaries and discuss this in another thread, which will hoppefuly be better

Reposting

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody ask Medeus to handle it via his message wall?

 

[JohnCenaNation]

As a big Sonic fan, I agree with 2-B as well.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

World is absolutely not used synonymously with universe.

 

[Mephistus]

Illumina's separate dream is refered to as a universe. They call any and every dream, incudling her own self referring to her dream, as worlds.

Heck, let's pull from Sonic Rush too with the same analogous meaning.

 

[Theuser789]

World can definitvely be used as a synomous of universe, like absolute so


"the material universe or all that exists; everything." This is one of the defintions of world

I'd appeal to Lumina's knowledge more so here, but the fact is that she doen't differentiate between the size of Lumina's dimension and just straight up call each dream they visit worlds and not some other term

That part right here explains why it's used, in the game both Lumina and the cast call Maginary World and the dreams "worlds", which is not the first time since in 06 the final level is called "End of the world" even though the entire universe was affected

 

[Malomtek]

That doesn't really prove they anything more than pocket realities.

Terminology is not proof.

 

[Theuser789]

But that isn't even the main proof, that's just a supporting one

Also I feel lkie you are not understanding Mephisto here, his point is that Maginary World is always called a world and that's confirmed to be a universe, yet she doesn't call the dream worlds diferently, so it would be fair to assume they are also universes, that's supporting the other several reasons

 

[Genericstickman]

...

...

 

[Malomtek]

Reading that much-vaunted blog that Sonic cultists have been jumping down DDM's throat for arguing against, I see several problems:

1. There is no evidence that Maginaryworld actually makes the dream worlds in contains *real* in the sense that a universe is real.

2. There is no scans linked to show the number of "dimensions" (seemingly meaning distinct parallel universes) in the Sonicverse, and in fact they seem to be deliberately conflated with timelines in this thread, with no explanation as to why. But it's likely just more deliberately disingenuous debating from the Sonic cultists.

3. Having a "galaxy like object" (not even a proven galaxy) in a realm doesn't prove it to be universe-sized.

4. The fact that the dream realms can "mirror" actual locations in the Soniverse doesn't at all prove that they're universe-sized. In fact, they can merely be the much more miniscule size of those actual locations.

5. Pocket realities can exist separately from each other, even in higher-dimensional spaces, without being universe sized. Nothing shows the dream worlds as greater than 4-B pocket realities.

But why am I doing this anyway? Matt and DDM already disagreed, and no other staff member is willing to jump in, so 2-B Sonic isn't happening no matter what.