Transduality type 3 for Maou Gakuin character

[Orioreeem]

It says creating an object that is sun like and moon like and also neither.
Let me break it down for you, you mix a lion and a tiger together hence you created something that is lion-like and tiger-like but also neither.

It is talking about appearance not properties. Learn to read to context, a statement of the same sentence complement each other simple

It's not only an object tho. That object is also her power, so it would be talking about properties of her power as well

 

[PrinceofPein]

It's not only an object tho. That object is also her power, so it would be talking about properties of her power as well

Except we have a description of what the object does, did you ignore that part on purpose just to push agenda?

Originally, contradictory ice and flame co-existed without a slight conflict.

. It is six petals that freeze and burn.

The burning ice flowers, It emits cold air and hot air at the same time

It has the property of both not that it lacks the properties of both

 

[Fixxed]

bro what? You literally said it is at least 5 truth state in Q&A thread? Dang

Yeah for TD 3, it must atleast 5 truth state

 

[Dereck03]

I don't know if this will help at all, but two contradictory orders cannot exist in the same place at the same time, let alone be exercising order at the same time.

 

[Orioreeem]

As far as It makes sense to me just because it says it's both doesn't mean it invalidates the type 3(because if it did neither 1 nor 0 and both 1 and 0 wouldn't be type 3) because it could also be neither 1 nor 0 but it just isn't said in that instance while it is in the other, type 5 via being 0 and 1 and not being 0 nor 1 should have both of those properties but only one is mentioned at that time.
We can go even deeper
She can use that object(power) on Eques who is aggregate of order which means it can affect and is both states at once, is stated to be contradiction to order so she would be contradictory to 0, 1, 0 and 1 and neither 0 nor 1(we also have Ennesone who is rejected by both order of birth and abortion and they don't allow her to be born), is being both 0 and 1 at the same time enough to be all this?
@Pain_to12

 

[ImmortalDread]

As far as It makes sense to me just because it says it's both doesn't mean it invalidates the type 3(because if it did neither 1 nor 0 and both 1 and 0 wouldn't be type 3) because it could also be neither 1 nor 0 but it just isn't said in that instance while it is in the other, type 5 via being 0 and 1 and not being 0 nor 1 should have both of those properties but only one is mentioned at that time.
We can go even deeper
She can use that object(power) on Eques who is aggregate of order which means it can affect and is both states at once, is stated to be contradiction to order so she would be contradictory to 0, 1, 0 and 1 and neither 0 nor 1(we also have Ennesone who is rejected by both order of birth and abortion and they don't allow her to be born), is being both 0 and 1 at the same time enough to be all this?
@Pain_to12

Agreed

 

[PrinceofPein]

I don't know if this will help at all, but two contradictory orders cannot exist in the same place at the same time, let alone be exercising order at the same time.

Two things of opposite nature cannot exist at the same time that's what duality is all about

As far as It makes sense to me just because it says it's both doesn't mean it invalidates the type 3(because if it did neither 1 nor 0 and both 1 and 0 wouldn't be type 3) because it could also be neither 1 nor 0 but it just isn't said in that instance while it is in the other, type 5 via being 0 and 1 and not being 0 nor 1 should have both of those properties but only one is mentioned at that time.
We can go even deeper
She can use that object(power) on Eques who is aggregate of order which means it can affect and is both states at once, is stated to be contradiction to order so she would be contradictory to 0, 1, 0 and 1 and neither 0 nor 1(we also have Ennesone who is rejected by both order of birth and abortion and they don't allow her to be born), is being both 0 and 1 at the same time enough to be all this?
@Pain_to12

Nope, also this is incoherent and again dodging my post above and does not even address it, this is getting to the border of strawmanning and stonewalling.
Also there is no instance of "neither 0 nor 1" which you have yet to shown me.

 

[Dereck03]

Also there is no instance of "neither 0 nor 1"

Absurdity is still an order that is the opposition and contradiction to all order, that 1 and 0 (creation and destruction) exist at the same time is already a contradiction, it is clear that being an order shares the same aspect of duality that all orders which is that each one has its opposite so Arcana would be both 1 and 0, but this is not bounded by overall order since this as I said previously is the contradiction of the order that makes impossible everything related to the order, it is not 1 and 0 either, is not affected nor does it follow the order due to the very nature of the absurd would be a similar case to Anos and Graham but these lacks and unbound order overall.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I don't agree with thread until DT explains further.

No one asked you spam. Stop with that. If you don't have any actual refute I will just report you for derailing the thread. We already have two pages of circling don't want to see someone just disgreeing without anything to do with the OP.

Atleast watch and learn from pain how to make any refutes not that agree with him still he atleast trying his best.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Absurdity is still an order that is the opposition and contradiction to all order, that 1 and 0 (creation and destruction) exist at the same time is already a contradiction, it is clear that being an order shares the same aspect of duality that all orders which is that each one has its opposite so Arcana would be both 1 and 0, but this is not bounded by overall order since this as I said previously is the contradiction of the order that makes impossible everything related to the order, it is not 1 and 0 either, is not affected nor does it follow the order due to the very nature of the absurd would be a similar case to Anos and Graham but these lacks and unbound order overall.

Absurdity allows you to make an opposite of an order or combine two orders of opposite factors.
For TD 3 tho
for any statement A about them they are in a state that can't be described as A is true, A is false, A is simultanously true and false or A is neither true nor false. And so they must obey a many-valued logic with at least 5 truth states, and not be in any of the 4 combinations of true and false mentioned earlier..

For Anos and Graham it can be said that A is false. When they lack order completely to begin with.

For arcana it can be said that A is simulteneously true and false.

It still won't qualify for a 5 truth states, the most I have seen possible here is 4.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Saying something is neither the sun or the moon but has both of them properties at the same times means just that.

If It is both 1 and 0, neither 1 nor 0, how does having properties of both 1 and 0 debunk it being neither 1 nor 0?

Something that is both and neither would obviously still have properties that makes it both

 

[Dereck03]

Absurdity allows you to make an opposite of an order or combine two orders of opposite factors.
For TD 3 tho
for any statement A about them they are in a state that can't be described as A is true, A is false, A is simultanously true and false or A is neither true nor false. And so they must obey a many-valued logic with at least 5 truth states, and not be in any of the 4 combinations of true and false mentioned earlier..

For Anos and Graham it can be said that A is false. When they lack order completely to begin with.

For arcana it can be said that A is simulteneously true and false.

It still won't qualify for a 5 truth states, the most I have seen possible here is 4.

Just one question, are we taking into account that Eques is an aggregate of all possible order? Be it duality, nonduality and Eques being onesess? (For some reason Eques does not have TD 2, we should add it soon) And all order cannot go against Eques while the order of absurdity can go against Eques.

 

[Hasty12345]

No one asked you spam. Stop with that. If you don't have any actual refute I will just report you for derailing the thread. We already have two pages of circling don't want to see someone just disgreeing without anything to do with the OP.

Atleast watch and learn from pain how to make any refutes not that agree with him still he atleast trying his best.

Disagreeing with a CRT isn’t derailing and is not reportable.

 

[Orioreeem]

Nope

Proof?

also this is incoherent and again dodging my post above and does not even address it, this is getting to the border of strawmanning and stonewalling.

I mean I just asked a question? Like Eques is also both 1 and 0 yet his existence isn't considered contradictory and impossible as Arcana's.

 

[PrinceofPein]

If It is both 1 and 0, neither 1 nor 0, how does having properties of both 1 and 0 debunk it being neither 1 nor 0?

Something that is both and neither would obviously still have properties that makes it both

Except for TD 3, both properties must be said to be simultaneously true and false.
Which is not the case here since both properties are said to be true

Just one question, are we taking into account that Eques is an aggregate of all possible order? Be it duality, nonduality and Eques being onesess? (For some reason Eques does not have TD 2, we should add it soon) And all order cannot go against Eques while the order of absurdity can go against Eques.

Yes I am.
Order of absurdity can go against him because it allows arcana to contradict whatever he brings.
I.e. order of sun, she brings moon
Order of flame, she brings ice

Combination of multiple.orders she brings a combination of opposite factors too, at least that is my interpretation

 

[Dog3352]

The mere existence of the order of the absurd contradicts all order in general, and is also capable of causing orders that should not coexist to coexist. And the Misfits (Graham and Arnos) do not follow none order (including Arcana) existing outside of all 4 states of Arcana and all other orders.

 

[Dereck03]

Yes I am.
Order of absurdity can go against him because it allows arcana to contradict whatever he brings.
I.e. order of sun, she brings moon
Order of flame, she brings ice

But the point of contradiction lies in the fact that it is clearly explicit that contradictory order cannot exist at the same time, she brings the order but at the same time it is not order, contradiction and opposition since it is useless to brings order as such to Eques since he himself is onesess of all duality and nonduality.

I think it is time to bring the "reason", since as we know both, Anos' source and Graham's true nature apart from being unbound of order hey also lacks reason. In other words, order in general would be (Duality, Nonduality, Onesess, Absurdity, Concepts, Laws, Fate, etc), the reason being beyond the order, what we have here then?

 

[Lewis]

No one asked you spam. Stop with that. If you don't have any actual refute I will just report you for derailing the thread. We already have two pages of circling don't want to see someone just disgreeing without anything to do with the OP.

Atleast watch and learn from pain how to make any refutes not that agree with him still he atleast trying his best.

Thx.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Disagreeing with a CRT isn’t derailing and is not reportable.

He said it like 4 times till now without any reasons given. Just saying : )

 

[PrinceofPein]

But the point of contradiction lies in the fact that it is clearly explicit that contradictory order cannot exist at the same time, she brings the order but at the same time it is not order, contradiction and opposition since it is useless to brings order as such to Eques since he himself is onesess of all duality and nonduality.

That is duality itself tho, the ability to exist in a state that is contradictory to one another, that is duality itself.
Now we have different types, no one I'd arguing there is no duality going on here, but rather the type it is.

I think it is time to bring the "reason", since as we know both, Anos' source and Graham's true nature apart from being unbound of order hey also lacks reason. In other words, order in general would be (Duality, Nonduality, Onesess, Absurdity, Concepts, Laws, Fate, etc), the reason being beyond the order, what we have here then?

Nothing. As I don't even know what this is supposed to prove

 

[Tatsumi504]

Which is not the case here since both properties are said to be

Two contradicting orders cannot exist at the same time. Being both 0 and 1 alone simply isn't enough. Her order can exist because it is both 0 and 1, neither 0 nor 1. The order of absurdity contradicts order in general not any specific dualities, non duality

Eques existence is the Aggregation of "all order". Being just 0 and 1 alone is not enough to contradict him. Your interpretation is once again contradicting the story itself

 

[Orioreeem]

That is duality itself tho, the ability to exist in a state that is contradictory to one another, that is duality itself.

That's nonduality

 

[Dereck03]

That is duality itself tho, the ability to exist in a state that is contradictory to one another, that is duality itself.
Now we have different types, no one I'd arguing there is no duality going on here, but rather the type it is.

What I mean is that absurdity goes against duality, nonduality and onesess, the order in general that cannot go against onesess goes against onesess because of the order of absurdity.

Nothing. As I don't even know what this is supposed to prove

I speak of a state beyond even Duality, nonduality, onesees and absurdity. The reason/logic in Mg is what it is. You say that the most order-related thing would be 4 states, right? I think I read that someone said that Maou would not even qualify for type 2 but I think I read it wrong. What would be the reason that it is a state beyond order that is above all verse?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Disagreeing with a CRT isn’t derailing and is not reportable.

Yes once is ok but how many times ? Did you even checked his replies? He keeps on spamming disgree again and again.
Atleast tell him to make an argument

 

[theultimate5105]

The order of absurdity is still an order that's within order. Nonconformists like graham and Anos are called misfits for being the opposite of and lacking order, the same has never been said about arcana.

Anos and graham are outside all order, that's why they're called misfits, all order includes the order of absurdity.

Yet it goes against order itself in the same way Anos does
it’s not a normal order or anything close to it as it goes against order, so statements of saying Misfits Go against order don’t mean they go against something which by itself, goes against order

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Yet it goes against order itself in the same way Anos does
it’s not a normal order or anything close to it as it goes against order, so statements of saying Misfits Go against order don’t mean they go against something which by itself, goes against order

Anos and Graham exists outside fo reason and order where arcana still exists inside the order but goes against other orders. Both are different.

 

[Hasty12345]

Yes once is ok but how many times ? Did you even checked his replies? He keeps on spamming disgree again and again.
Atleast tell him to make an argument

Some members of the wiki have pushed the agenda that disagrees need to be renewed as new arguments are made otherwise they’re invalid. Whilst this isn’t the case, I don’t blame this person for thinking he has to keep voicing his position when arguments have progressed.

 

[theultimate5105]

Anos and Graham exists outside fo reason and order where arcana still exists inside the order but goes against other orders. Both are different.

Anos does not fully exist outside of reason (partially sure, but not fully).
Arcana doesn’t exist inside the order as she goes against it

 

[PrinceofPein]

What I mean is that absurdity goes against duality, nonduality and onesess, the order in general that cannot go against onesess goes against onesess because of the order of absurdity.

Duality and oneness Implies the same thing in this context.
What it goes against is duality I.e. it allows two things of opposite nature co-exist.
Tbh following the TD standard fully, she may not even qualify, as according to the standard.
Duality is to be logical duality I.e. not something like fire and ice but rather fire and not fire.

So she needs to be in a state of fire and not fire at the same time.

So she actually does not have proof of this logocal duality to begin with. But even using the duality presented here it will be at most type 2

I speak of a state beyond even Duality, nonduality, onesees and absurdity. The reason/logic in Mg is what it is. You say that the most order-related thing would be 4 states, right? I think I read that someone said that Maou would not even qualify for type 2 but I think I read it wrong. What would be the reason that it is a state beyond order that is above all verse?

The post about maou will not qualify fir type 2 was from me, since you need to be qualitavely superior to those logical dual systems, that's why I said it is a possibly type 2.

Eques state is oneness or that he has access to all other orders.
It was never stated to be oneness in the sense that all order even those that are contradictory co-exist together inside him, that was a logical assumption which is fair although can be wrong.
Now that is duality, arcana able to go against that would also be duality or non-duality,




also, do you know the chapter of the fight? Let me read it.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Some members of the wiki have pushed the agenda that disagrees need to be renewed as new arguments are made otherwise they’re invalid. Whilst this isn’t the case, I don’t blame this person for thinking he has to keep voicing his position when arguments have progressed.

Still that derailing though. We have people desperately arguing each other with points where a person just pops up and disagrees with no reason. Ok Once is OK why spam disgree multiple times. This OP already reached two pages. Lmao. Do we need unnecessary comments?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Anos does not fully exist outside of reason (partially sure, but not fully).

Scans ?

Arcana doesn’t exist inside the order as she goes against it

Scans ?

 

[Dog3352]

Duality and oneness Implies the same thing in this context.
What it goes against is duality I.e. it allows two things of opposite nature co-exist.
Tbh following the TD standard fully, she may not even qualify, as according to the standard.
Duality is to be logical duality I.e. not something like fire and ice but rather fire and not fire.

So she needs to be in a state of fire and not fire at the same time.

So she actually does not have proof of this logocal duality to begin with. But even using the duality presented here it will be at most type 2

As long as the verse considers Dualities, there's no need for "no fire"

 

[NIK_FARIS]

This is why I prefer it being generalised as non duality. being fair I kind of neutral regarding the crt. Unless I am mistaken how TD3 work, as long as the being does encompass the duality, being both of them(1 and 0) and also, at the same time, completely opposite from any of them, only after that can that being get TD3.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

This is why I prefer it being generalised as non duality. being fair I kind of neutral regarding the crt. Unless I am mistaken how TD3 work, as long as the being does encompass the duality, being both of them(1 and 0) and also, at the same time, completely undifferentiated from any of them, only after that can that being get TD3.

Yeah which is Arcana Existence itself

 

[Dereck03]

Duality and oneness Implies the same thing in this context.
What it goes against is duality I.e. it allows two things of opposite nature co-exist.
Tbh following the TD standard fully, she may not even qualify, as according to the standard.
Duality is to be logical duality I.e. not something like fire and ice but rather fire and not fire.

So she needs to be in a state of fire and not fire at the same time.

So she actually does not have proof of this logocal duality to begin with. But even using the duality presented here it will be at most type 2

Huh, so it's okay to ignore something that a verse explicitly treats as duality in every way? It remains a clear duality.

The post about maou will not qualify fir type 2 was from me, since you need to be qualitavely superior to those logical dual systems, that's why I said it is a possibly type 2.

Ah, it was yours? sorry I just woke up and checked everything over without seeing who posted what.

Eques state is oneness or that he has access to all other orders.
It was never stated to be oneness in the sense that all order even those that are contradictory co-exist together inside him, that was a logical assumption which is fair although can be wrong.
Now that is duality, arcana able to go against that would also be duality or non-duality,

As I said previously, Eques himself is called an aggregate of all the gods and rules the world of Militia as the will of the world, as the chief god and thus above all the countless gods that exist in the macrocosms. Eques is also called god of gears, he has countless gears where he has the gods, he is able to rewrite the order and the gods as well as to create the gods and their orders and use them if he wants as an addition to his gears. Even Eques can make the existence of 2 contradictory orders (which if they exist at the same time in the same place can lead to the destruction of the world) exist without problems, just as he did with Creation and Destruction, all the orders that exist as well as those that contradict themselves by existing at the same time coexist in the gears of eques which is the power of the order of Eques itself. And as I said, Gods cannot go against order, that's why contradictory orders and gods cannot be in the same place at the same time, but the order of the chief god can make that contradiction never happen.

also, do you know the chapter of the fight? Let me read it.

Unfortunately, I do not know.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Eques the aggregation of all order will cause the destruction of the world because all order will be destroyed.

Arcana with her order would be able to make it so that the world wouldn't be destroyed by contradicting it.

Eques destruction= world destruction.
Eques= General order.
Eques destruction= Destruction of all order.
Order of absurdity is able to make it so that all order hasn't been destroyed. This counters pain's point of her bringing the contradiction of multiple orders to contradict him.

 

[Sniper670]

This is why I prefer it being generalised as non duality. being fair I kind of neutral regarding the crt. Unless I am mistaken how TD3 work, as long as the being does encompass the duality, being both of them(1 and 0) and also, at the same time, completely opposite from any of them, only after that can that being get TD3.

Don't think so

I was thinking if A is neither true, False, both true and false and neither True nor false. As long as you exist outside of each and every one of these states, you're Type 3

For instance, an entity beyond Wuji is straight to Type 3. Wuji as described in Toisim is neither 1 nor 0. As was the case with Oblivion, in a crt a few days ago. Which was accepted as fitting the new type 3, Plurality

Mostly the hardest part to breach is being outside even the absence of 1 and 0.

 

[Dereck03]

Don't think so

I was thinking if A is neither true, False, both true and false and neither True nor false. As long as you exist outside of each and every one of these states, you're Type 3

For instance, an entity beyond Wuji is straight to Type 3. Wuji as described in Toisim is neither 1 nor 0. As was the case with Oblivion, in a crt a few days ago. Which was accepted as fitting the new type 3, Plurality

Mostly the hardest part to breach is being outside even the absence of 1 and 0.

Sup man, welcome again

 

[Sniper670]

Sup man, welcome again

Thanks. I was going to be here much later but I left an unfinished Pokémon business lol

 

[Tatsumi504]

You're also ignoring the point of all gods seeing themselves as "one order" Despite having different abilities and minds of their own which further proves the point of him being the aggregate of all order