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Transduality type 3 for Maou Gakuin character

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It's just a different truth value. 1 and 0 is also contradictory to 1 or 0. That's the whole point of power.
 
theultimate5105 said:
Why would it include the order of absurdity which also goes against all order
there is no reason that it would include it as it is by itself a contradiction of order
Click to expand...
The order of absurdity is still an order that's within order. Nonconformists like graham and Anos are called misfits for being the opposite of and lacking order, the same has never been said about arcana.

Anos and graham are outside all order, that's why they're called misfits, all order includes the order of absurdity.
 
Tatsumi504 said:
The order of absurdity is still an order that's within order. Nonconformists like graham and Anos are called misfits for being the opposite of and lacking order, the same has never been said about arcana.

Anos and graham are outside all order, that's why they're called misfits, all order includes the order of absurdity.
Click to expand...
Yes which means they are neither or all dualities and not both of all dualities. i.e. they lack dualities
which was why i agreed to their TD2 thread if I can remember correctly. Or you have proof that the way they are outside all orders they also contain all orders?

I already explained type 3 to you, but you don't seem to actually want to understand it
 
Pain_to12 said:
Yes which means they are neither or all dualities and not both of all dualities. i.e. they lack dualities
which was why i agreed to their TD2 thread if I can remember correctly. Or you have proof that the way they are outside all orders they also contain all orders?

I already explained type 3 to you, but you don't seem to actually want to understand it
Click to expand...
Does not TD 3 work if you have at least 5 truth states?
 
Pain_to12 said:
Yes which means they are neither or all dualities and not both of all dualities. i.e. they lack dualities
which was why i agreed to their TD2 thread if I can remember correctly. Or you have proof that the way they are outside all orders they also contain all orders?

I already explained type 3 to you, but you don't seem to actually want to understand it
Click to expand...
So why doesn't Arcana qualify for type 3 again?
Pain_to12 said:
If Arcana power allows her to make 0 and 1 co-exists that's type 2, now she needs to go further to the point where she can be 0 and 1 and also not 0 and 1 at the same time.
Click to expand...
You said this
"Spring Scenery Six Flowers, Shunkei Rikka"

It shined brightly like the sun, blinked like a cold moon, and its frozen flowers were burning.

One after another, the flowers gathered behind Arcana, creating a moon-like and sun-like, created an object that is neither of them.

Here she literally made both 0 and 1 coexist and stated as well that it is also neither of them. So she created both 0 and 1 and neither 0 nor 1at the same time
 
Dread said:
Does not TD 3 work if you have at least 5 truth states?
Click to expand...
Yup pretty much and Anos and Graham can be said to be in a state where "A and B" is simultaneously untrue but they cannot be said to be in a state where "A and B" is simultaneously true, so they will not qualify

NB: where A and B are opposite dualities
Orioreeem said:
So why doesn't Arcana qualify for type 3 again?

You said this
"Spring Scenery Six Flowers, Shunkei Rikka"

It shined brightly like the sun, blinked like a cold moon, and its frozen flowers were burning.

One after another, the flowers gathered behind Arcana, creating a moon-like and sun-like, created an object that is neither of them.

Here she literally made both 0 and 1 coexist and stated as well that it is also neither of them. So she created both 0 and 1 and neither 0 nor 1at the same time
Click to expand...
I feel like you guys sincerely do this things on purpose

Creating an object that comprises both of them that looks like neither of them.
It freezes and burns at the same time and not that it unfreezes and unburns at the same time too.
TDlr:
She combined both of them together to create an object that is not a sun or a moon but has the same properties at the same time. The TD 3 can only be true if the object she created lacks the properties of the sun and the moon while also having the properties of the sun and the moon at the same time.


In simpler terms if you want anos and Graham to have type 3, they need to lack order while at the same time containing all orders.

That is to say, for any statement A about them they are in a state that can't be described as A is true, A is false, A is simultanously true and false or A is neither true nor false. And so they must obey a many-valued logic with at least 5 truth states, and not be in any of the 4 combinations of true and false mentioned earlier
 
From checking that there is nothing beyond the truth value of real numbers the in the interval [0,1] until it becomes G∞. from what you mentioned and You have to check the usage with Gödel logics and what are the other values that are not 0 and 1.

Many-valued logic - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
 
Pain_to12 said:
Yup pretty much and Anos and Graham can be said to be in a state where "A and B" is simultaneously untrue but they cannot be said to be in a state where "A and B" is simultaneously true, so they will not qualify
Click to expand...
Being both 0 and 1 and neither 0 nor 1 isn't the only way to qualify for type 3. They wouldn't be opposite and lacking to only 1 or 0 but to 1, 0, 1 and 0 and neither 1 nor 0. Chaos and Nothingness would be that 5th and 6th value while the other 4 are clearly determined by order. They also mustn't be part of the order(4 states of logic) which chaos and nothingness clearly aren't.
Pain_to12 said:
Creating an object that comprises both of them that looks like neither of them.
It freezes and burns at the same time and not that it unfreezes and unburns at the same time too.
Click to expand...
It says exactly the opposite tho
creating a moon-like and sun-like
She created an object that is like them BUT "is neither of them."
She didn't create an object that looks like neither of them like you said
Also she never said it "looks like" but that it is like them
Pain_to12 said:
She combined both of them together to create an object that is not a sun or a moon but has the same properties at the same time
Click to expand...
What you said here is type 3 tho, just in different order. Neither 0 nor 1 but is also 0 and 1
 
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Lewis said:
From checking that there is nothing beyond the truth value of real numbers the in the interval [0,1] until it becomes G∞. from what you mentioned and You have to check the usage with Gödel logics and what are the other values that are not 0 and 1.

Many-valued logic - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
Click to expand...
Heh it's more like
For A we can't say
A is true
We can't say it is false
We can't say it is true and false
We can't say it is not true and false
We can't say it is a combination of any of the above 4 states.

That's TD 3.
 
Huh, I just wake up and saw this... Anyway, @Pain_to12 what's your argument against this thread, could you make a little summary please? Im still in the dream worlds
 
Pain_to12 said:
Yup pretty much and Anos and Graham can be said to be in a state where "A and B" is simultaneously untrue but they cannot be said to be in a state where "A and B" is simultaneously true, so they will not qualify
Click to expand...
I dont get what you mean. And why they must simultaneously A and B for get qualify??
Pain_to12 said:
Creating an object that comprises both of them that looks like neither of them.
It freezes and burns at the same time and not that it unfreezes and unburns at the same time too.
TDlr:
She combined both of them together to create an object that is not a sun or a moon but has the same properties at the same time. The TD 3 can only be true if the object she created lacks the properties of the sun and the moon while also having the properties of the sun and the moon at the same time.
Click to expand...
No, the author use different example and different explanation for the "both of duality" and "neither of duality". Like the author says co-existed for describe the both of duality and neither for neither of duality
Pain_to12 said:
In simpler terms if you want anos and Graham to have type 3, they need to lack order while at the same time containing all orders.
Click to expand...
Why they need containing all orders??? The TD 3 requirement is just obey the 5th truth states
 
Pain_to12 said:
Yes which means they are neither or all dualities and not both of all dualities. i.e. they lack dualities
which was why i agreed to their TD2 thread if I can remember correctly. Or you have proof that the way they are outside all orders they also contain all orders?

I already explained type 3 to you, but you don't seem to actually want to understand it
Click to expand...
I understand how type 3 works. Anos and graham are beyond the order of absurdity that is 0 and 1 and neither 0 nor 1 at the same time.

They're are beyond the logic of 4 truth states,
A is true
A is false
A is true and false
A is neither true nor false.
The order of absurdity is both true and false, neither true nor false. Anos and graham are then beyond the order of absurdity.
 
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Orioreeem said:
Being both 0 and 1 and neither 0 nor 1 isn't the only way to qualify for type 3. They wouldn't be opposite and lacking to only 1 or 0 but to 1, 0, 1 and 0 and neither 1 nor 0. Chaos and Nothingness would be that 5th value while the other 4 are clearly determined by order. They also mustn't be part of the order(4 states of logic) which chaos and nothingness clearly aren't.
Click to expand...
Ah you really should read Lewis quote up above, as you clearly don't know what multi value logic is, and beside this is incoherent and certainly not what TD3 is.
Orioreeem said:
It says exactly the opposite tho
creating a moon-like and sun-like
She created an object that is like them BUT "is neither of them."
She didn't create an object that looks like neither of them like you said
Also she never said it "looks like" but that it is like them
Click to expand...
You should read your own scans, she created an order in which in the world the state of the sun and the moon can be said to be simultaneously true and not that the state is simultaneously false.
Orioreeem said:
What you said here is type 3 tho, just in different order. Neither 0 nor 1 but is also 0 and 1
Click to expand...
No what I typed is type 2
She created an object that is neither the sun and the moon but has the properties of both. For it to be type 3 it needs to lack the properties of both also.
Andelk stunnedly stares at the object created by Shunkei Rikka. It is six petals that freeze and burn. Certainly, the order of God is there. God's power was exerting power. "... Ah ... not ... like this ...!?" She opens her eyes and shakes her head. She, the Four Gods of Juri, who form the fundamental of order, was faced with the power of God that impossible to exist. "Something is wrong ...! There is no such order ... !!!" "The moon does not rise, the sun sets, and spring illuminates a land without Gods" Arcana chanted with a quiet voice. "Six Flowers of Absurdity, Levihel Alter" The burning ice flowers, It emits cold air and hot air at the same time. Originally, contradictory ice and flame co-existed without a slight conflict.
Click to expand...

The scan literally says for the logic of ice and flame both can be said to be true.
While TD 3 requires that to be said to be untrue. At the same time true
how hard can it be to understand this.
Your entire "neither both" comes from the premises that the object(flowers petals) does not look like the sun or the moon not that it lacks their properties
Tatsumi504 said:
I understand how type 3 works.
Click to expand...
No you don't
 
Dereck03 said:
Huh, I just wake up and saw this... Anyway, @Pain_to12 what's your argument against this thread, could you make a little summary please? Im still in the dream worlds
Click to expand...
I really cannot summarise this all I can say is try and read through it
And also try tagging agnaa and DT here maybe they will answer
 
Pain_to12 said:
Ah you really should read Lewis quote up above, as you clearly don't know what multi value logic is, and beside this is incoherent and certainly not what TD3 is.
Click to expand...
I think you should actually read it because what you are implying is that the only way to be type 3 is to be both 1 and 0 and neither 1 nor 0 which also implies there is only once such state which is wrong because multi-value logic can go up to infinity.
Pain_to12 said:
neither the sun and the moon
Click to expand...
Which implies
Pain_to12 said:
lack the properties of both also
Click to expand...
Pain_to12 said:
Your entire "neither both" comes from the premises that the object(flowers petals) does not look like the sun or the moon not that it lacks their properties
Click to expand...
This is false. Nowhere in the scan it says LOOK like. It says LIKE. VERY different things.
 
Pain_to12 said:
Now this is very simple,
Let's say the order of the sun is A, tell me how it obeys 5 truth states in the hands of Arcana
Click to expand...
So order in specific is duality (A is true and false)
And order in general are nonduality state of onesess (A is simulteneously true and false)
We have 3 truth stated in here

And arcana's order is opposite of order and supperior to them.
Are both true and false (onesess that beyond the onesess mention above)
We have 4 truth states
And neither of true nor false
And finally 5 truth states
 
Fixxed said:
So order in specific is duality (A is true and false)
And order in general are nonduality state of onesess (A is simulteneously true and false)
We have 3 truth stated in here

And arcana's order is opposite of order and supperior to them.
Are both true and false (onesess that beyond the onesess mention above)
We have 4 truth states
And neither of true nor false
And finally 5 truth states
Click to expand...
Orioreeem said:
I think you should actually read it because what you are implying is that the only way to be type 3 is to be both 1 and 0 and neither 1 nor 0 which also implies there is only once such state which is wrong because multi-value logic can go up to infinity.

Which implies


This is false. Nowhere in the scan it says LOOK like. It says LIKE. VERY different things.
Click to expand...
Must not be said to be a combination of any of the 4 truth states above
And yes we have a clear statement that it is a combination of two.
This is false. Nowhere in the scan it says LOOK like. It says LIKE. VERY different things.
Click to expand...
Saying something is neither the sun or the moon but has both of them properties at the same times means just that.

Anyway let's wait for DT.
 
Fixxed said:
Thats what i think first. But DT's says if you are obey both 1-0 and neither 0-1 it can have TD 3, even i think is just obey 4 truth states
Click to expand...
He answered with a single sentence without elaborating further.
If DT said just 4 truth is enough then he is wrong but he certainly said no such thing. As the TD page would say otherwise, I.e. requiring at least 5 truth states
 
Pain_to12 said:
Must not be said to be a combination of any of the 4 truth states above
And yes we have a clear statement that it is a combination of two.
Click to expand...
That doesn't disqualify it for type 3 when being both 0 and 1 and neither 0 nor 1 is one way to qualify for type 3. Like I get that you want to use that statement to force a contradiction but second statement doesn't say what you want it to say.
Pain_to12 said:
Saying something is neither the sun or the moon but has both of them properties at the same times means just that.
Click to expand...
Again wrong. It says it is like sun and moon(which is true because it can make them coexist) but is actually neither of them. And again LIKE and LOOK LIKE are very different words.
 
I get that you want to interpret the second statement as a way to complement the first one and with that disregard type 3, but the second one just doesn't say what you want and the first one alone can't be used as a contradiction to type 3.
 
One last explanation
The TD page says this
That is to say, for any statement A about them they are in a state that can't be described as A is true, A is false, A is simultanously true and false or A is neither true nor false. And so they must obey a many-valued logic with at least 5 truth states, and not be in any of the 4 combinations of true and false mentioned earlier.
Click to expand...
Can't be described means can't be said to be.
And here you have this scan that says this

Originally, contradictory ice and flame co-existed without a slight conflict.
Click to expand...
Meaning A is simulteneously true and false.
So yes not type 3.

Or simple still find a duality in the verse call it A and tell me how
A can't be described as A is true, A is false, A is simultanously true and false or A is neither true nor false. And A must obey a many-valued logic with at least 5 truth states, and not be in any of the 4 combinations of true and false mentioned earlier.
 
Orioreeem said:
I get that you want to interpret the second statement as a way to complement the first one and with that disregard type 3, but the second one just doesn't say what you want and the first one alone can't be used as a contradiction to type 3.
Click to expand...
It says creating an object that is sun like and moon like and also neither.
Let me break it down for you, you mix a lion and a tiger together hence you created something that is lion-like and tiger-like but also neither.

It is talking about appearance not properties. Learn to read to context, a statement of the same sentence complement each other simple
 
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