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Touhou Revisions: Stop bullying me, Junko Edition

Sorry if I'm taking to long with my responses. My time on the internet each day has been a little on and off as of late. But I'll try to help get this to a conclusion as soon as possible
 
Im having trouble telling if your joking with that conclusion statement or just trash talking. But if you keep a calm and open mind and give good explanations to back up your claims, ill happily concede to anything i may be wrong on, as how it should work both ends. Otherwise there would have never been a point in discussing this.

Multi continent level: Despite the fact that dreams are explicitly stated to equate to reality in touhou and be the exact same thing, including the characters scaling. Meiling multiverse busting (which would actually likely be an outlier for her) would basically make the dream world a full on multiversal structure and scale to doremy for controlling such a dream btw.

Solar system level: Why is it vague? Can you please give some explanation? Because right now it sounds like a case of arguing from belief.

Small country level: Just found out there is this old calc that would put marisa above island level anyway. So yeah. There would be a gap in between.

Star level: Theres a high 4-C calc here although im not sure if its really useable.

Regarding Reimu's Fantasy Seal, it isn't stronger than her by such an amount. It's just a super attack, not something that's literally infinitely stronger than her. It is her strongest ability and is able to negate the durability and kill youkai who she cannot physically contend with otherwise. It explicitly targets youkai as a spiritual related technique and is a normal attack to a human otherwise. The Yin-Yang orbs are directly imbued with the Hakurei God's power Hakerei god never did this at all. The closest she done was bless it with youkai hunting which is not power related at all. Its spiritual related. Here its even stated that against a non youkai, the occult ball is just a heavy ball that a normal human can handle. Also this would make the occult balls one of the weakest due to the hakurei gods scaling below even the moriya gods due to lack of faith. so they have a reason to be stronger than Reimu, but not Fantasy Seal. Reimus fantasy seal is stated repeatedly to be her strongest attack. Also the hakurei gods don't even scale to reimu. Reimu doesn't rely on them at all to the point where she cant even remember the gods name. They cant even keep youkai away from the shrine in due to how depowered they are.

Scaling:

Alice Margatroid: Again, it makes no sense for her to be this much weaker than Marisa. She is nearly always compared to Marisa, even if it's not in term of sheer power. If the comparisons are explicitly not related to power then it cannot be used for power scaling.

She's outright called a youkai version of Marisa. You don't need a direct statement to scale characters. Can you provide any scans or sources for these statements so we know they are true and not out of context? Marisa and alice have no similarities apart from being magicians with yellow hair. I seriously hope you are not attempting to scale characters because they are compared in appearance.

The sheer fact that she's not even remotely implied to be this much weaker than Marisa is enough reasons to assume that she's not this much weaker. This is a no limits fallacy. Youre going for the idea that alice isnt shown to be limited far below marisas tier and therefore scales, which essentially means that your standards here result in alice scaling to marisa until proven otherwise. Saying that someone is a certain level until they are proven to below it is the definition of a no limits fallacy. Using this logic with a reason for scaling as a backup is fine. But using this argument alone, or using it for coupled with something that is not related to power what so ever is ridiculous.

Youmu Konpaku: Many people in fiction are this much weaker than their mentors. Its nothing new. Even so, yuyuko doesn't scale.

Nue Houju: The term legendary doesn't imply power at all even through its definition. Legendary refers to something mythical, historical, famous or even old. Legendary only ever equates to power if the context implies it as such. Dont take statements and twist them into something they don't mean. Could you at least show the context where nue was implied on mamizous level or stated as a legendary youkai?

Yuyuko Saigyouji: Are you seriously trying to tell me that simply governing ghosts and spirits who have shown nothing above island level through scaling, is more impressive than ruling over armies of Low 2-Cs with an iron fist?

This is like me saying that some guy who rules over earth scales to 5-B martians who have never interacted with earth, because they only rule over portions of mars. The size of the territory you rule over does not equate to power.

Hong Meilling: Considering how remillia is one of the strongest youkai, even stronger than the oni who well trained humans canonically cannot physically contend with, I find that hard to believe.

Patchouli Knowledge: A powerful mage which does not imply top tier mage. When has patchouli ever been compared to marisa? The only thing shown is marisa stealing books from her library and patchouli telling her not to. That's seriously it. Nothing about that implies any fighting before scr.

and the fact that alice is comparatively just a novice So you are trying to scale alice and say she is comparable to marisa. Yet you go onto say that alices magic is low tier compared to someone who is supposedly comparable to marisa. This already contradicts alice scaling to high tier especially on your 2 tier hierarchy where you are either a low tier or high tier depending on how you are portrayed.

Sakuya Izayoi: Her backstory hints that she might have fought Remilia and other vampires. In the story she only fought remillia and got stomped trying.

Even without that, she's still pretty much the head of the mansion and served as Remilia's main way of doing things before the Spell Cards. You seriously cannot be trying to scale someone in terms of ap for doing another persons chores efficiently (through time and spatial abilities mostly).

Letty Whiterock: Oh, if that's the case then I suppose she can be outright downgraded.

Yatagarasu: Can you give a good explanation as to why this scales him above hermits?

Marisa Kirisame: She has top tier magical strength among "humans". How does that scale to hermits? I already said in the discussion that she scales to reimu in ap.

Reimu Hakurei: Have you even read a word I have said throughout the discussion? Being the youkai hunter is completely irrelevant. Youkai hunters as I have already discussed use special weaponary and techniques to exterminate youkai. Without it they are physically unable to contend with oni level beings at all. It explains it right here. Its further backed up by the Kasen fight where reimu needed hax based fantasy abilities which gradually seal the opponents, and an occult ball attack, both of which explicitly target youkai and work less effectively on humans indicating them to be spiritual based. Without it, reimu could not do any meaningful damage at all. There is nothing nonsensicle about her scaling this far below hermits or the strongest youkai when not only are these rare encounters, but physical ap is explicitly not used for youkai extermination especially on this level. Reimu can bypass being oneshotted in addition. Seriously, ive said and proved repeatedly that reimu does not scale to these top tier youkai in terms of ap. Its blatantly just hax.

Yuuka Kazami: You seem to use the term "random hermits" as if they are some common mid tier enemy in gensokyo, despite them being one of the most powerful races of youkai. Just like with oni, there is nothing stopping these youkai from being this much more powerful even in the same environment. Especially when they are even less hostile than many other youkai, normally helping humans in need and have no reason at all to go around atomising people. The only other recorded instance of youkai this powerful living in gensokyo is remillia getting ganged up on, which doesn't indicate that many.

Anyway, if her power is emphasised as being among the most powerful youkai and not just a "really strong" one then you are right. If the latter is true, do you have any statements to support this?

Sanae Kochiya: Youkai hunter barely means anything as ive proven, especilly in sanaes case she is not a proffessional youkai hunter like reimu. Also sanae as a shrine maiden works far differently to reimu.

Aya Shameimaru: Top class? While hermits are rare in gensokyo, there are only a few youkai who can physically deal with the likes of vampires. A top class statement unlike a simply "strong" statement would be an indication of her scaling. Can you provide evidence and context? Because it wont surprise me is it either doesn't exist or is entirely linked to something news related.

Byakuren Hijiri: Sealing someone is different from outright fighting someone and/or taking hits, which is especially common in touhou. Tbh, Byakurens rivalry is the only one here that seems to be an actual rivalry and not just some heated friendship or competitive relationship through non physical means like the others. But the problem is, is there any reason they would have even known eachother and had fights before scr?

Hatate Himekaidou: They are in a similar position in terms of the media. That's really it. Unless shes every actually been implied comparable.

Mamizou Futaswuia: Again, transforming into someone doesn't make you that powerful unless you explicitly gain their actual power as well. Leader of a large faction… how powerful is said faction? I agree with the scaling to byakuren

Occult Balls: Still forgetting the fact that the occult balls explicitly needed paradoxical abilities and not actual ap in order to do so. The lunar capital ones have a feat of being able to fuse the lunar capital into gensokyo and can emit energy differently.


Also no, Unknown won't be a thing either way. Either we rate them as stronger than Cirno or we scale them to stronger people. We don't give out Unknowns for being stronger than another character to this degree. If it makes no sense for them to be island level fodder tier like you go on about, but they have no comfortable rating to put them at that is higher, then an unknown rating should be given.

I repeat what I said earlier: You're pulling a Pokémon. Scaling specific feats to specific people, resulting in a scaling where certain characters are nonsensically far stronger than others. Not sure if pokemon repetition is your attempt to bring a verse I don't even know about into the argument. But pokemon and touhou are completely different in basically every way. Pokemon is a game about monsters who fight to the break of death who are almost always compared in terms of strength when a comparison is made. They have actual stages of evolution and an actual canonical hierarchy to work with. Touhou is a series where actual combat is almost a non existent element, directly taken out the verse in favour of beauty contests, where characters are compared in completely non physical manners and almost no hierarchal structure to work with, outside of a few things like onis, hermits and vampires canonically smacking everyone in terms of ap, with most other characters needing special youkai exterminating techniques to retort both stated and shown. And the current 4-A scaling. This is such a blatant false equivalence.

You need to accept that non-direct scaling and the sheer fact that certain characters can exist in the same environment without subatomizing each other is a legitimate form of scaling in such a verse. There is a difference between non direct scaling and scaling for reasons that are not even remotely tied into power nor imply a character to be physically comparable at all. "Without subatomizing eachother" is a rule that has never existed in the verse. Even through word of god, zun himself has stated that there would be no more game if many of these characters used their absolute full power, implying many of the characters in gensokyo to be superior to the main cast and could legitimately kill them if they were actually bloodlusted. You are simply ignoring to the fact that it is repeatedly stated and shown that there are high tier youkai who humans and most other youkai cannot contend with physically. It's consistent within touhou that most of these characters are at completely different levels. Your argument that these characters can exist in the same environment is completely flawed and ignoring the fact that the characters have always used spiritual techniques, hax and special weaponry to make up for this ap difference.

You need to accept that, yes, a character not being implied to be infinitely stronger than another in a combat-centric verse is a contradiction, a huge ass one at that. Your scaling idea just doesn't work. Nobody in touhou has been implied infinitely stronger than anybody. Otherwise they would already be high 3-A. Oni are implied unfathomably stronger than most others with strength defying imagination and have feats high universal and scaling to possible low 2-C characters. And when someone is implied completely physically inferior to someone, e.g. Kasen tanking all of reimus attacks which aren't explicitly built for youkai extermination, humans and most other races being completely unable to contend with oni (who have their strength exaggerated more than anyone else) through physical based means, or tengu blatantly being inferior to oni, you use the argument of "but shes a youkai hunter" (despite youkai hunters not relying on attack potency to take down stronger youkai) or "but they are still strong characters" (despite some strong characters being island class despite this rule anyway). By our own powerscaling standards, you cannot scale every character who you believe is strong out of fear of characters one shotting when they consistently follow this hax based rule.

Touhou is not a combat centric verse. If anything it is a hax centric verse. As of windows its always been about creative patterns and friendly non physical duels, and durability negation or exploitation of certain weaknesses when combat normally is involved. Characters fighting to the death or at full power is one of the rarest things in touhou and doesn't even happen in most fights we see. Even oni have no recorded history of deciding to outright go full force on random people.

But. If combat centric verse gives us a pass to allow this type of scaling.

When has a combatitive verse ever scaled a character because they were compared, with said comparison explicitly not referring to their physical capabilities, or have no indication of being physically related like you yourself said? When has someone scaled for doing someones chores efficiently? When has a character who has shown no physical comparison to another, scaled just because they weren't implied weaker? When has a character scaled to a solid tier because they were stated "strong". Not "top tier" or strong in comparison to something in the verse they can scale to. Simply a character who has been given a comfortable tier because they are stated to be a strong character? When has a character scaled to another for ruling over a larger amount of territory than the latter, when the two have not interacted at all and the latter rules over beings who are stronger? At most there might be a few overlooked and obscure verses that follow some of this

But, if you wanna start bringing other verses into this, lets look at other combative verses that don't follow your logic where vague scaling is useable.

Mortal kombat has basically everyone and their mother scaling to large building level to city level and yet most characters are listed either small building to large building level and only gives scaling to city level on rare occasions (With dvorah being able to one shot most of the cast as a result. Though to give the benefit of the doubt, mortal kombat is really inconsistent).

One punch man doesn't yet scale god to saitama despite there being nothing implying god is weaker and some speculation putting him above saitama.

We don't scale cirno to marisa when marisa said that even with her full power she would have some trouble because its "spellcard banter". And we don't even scale junko to 3-A for fighting hecatia. Also we don't scale anybody but hecatia to beings in hell who are planning to destroy the universe, although admittedly them planning to destroy it may just be a vague supporting thing anyway.

Pokemon doesn't confidently scale darkria to the creation trio for contending with them for the reasons mentioned and only leaves it as a possibly.

We don't scale any dragon ball characters unless they are explicitly shown or directly implied to be superior to another character.

And many, many more examples.

Stop using this excuse at the end of every comment to justify ridiculous reasons for scaling. Your scaling requires us to take material from the series and twist everything into something power related when the original context in most cases, blatantly indicates otherwise or makes no sense to be used. It is completely unnecessary and outright contradictary to what the verse actually shows us. At this point, i would reccomend focusing on the characters themselves and discussing why their scaling is a good enough implication or nonsensicle not scale those specific ones.

Edit: Sorry that it had to be so long. But most of this just requires you to link sources to back up a lot of what you are saying. Just read it carefully and take your time.
 
Read this post said:
Naeblis495 said:
what is the "too vague" marisa feat that is being referenced here?
Click to expand...
Marisa splitting two large stars. I left the calc in my scaling thingy under "solar system"
Click to expand...
thank you, seems pretty straight forward feat , why is it considerated "vague" to some ?was the feat too casual?
 
"Sakuya Izayoi: Her backstory hints that she might have fought Remilia and other vampires. In the story she only fought remillia and got stomped trying."

Sakuya's backstory tells that she before being the maid of the SDM was a vampire hunter, which practiced hunting small creatures that weren't vampires.

Some time later, and confident of her power, she went directly to the SDM to hunt Remilia, however she was defeated by the Scarlet Devil. However, Remilia, impressed by the power that Sakuya had, wanted to make that power hers, making the hunter her number 1 maid and renaming her Sakuya.

Idk, but I don't think anyone will be impressed by someone else's power if she stomps her directly.
 
Beerus was impressed by gokus power. The power gap between them is considered infinite by our standards. Remillia defeated sakuya with ease in the story. Being easily beaten by someone and simply impressing them does not scale you to them.
 
Read this post said:
Beerus was impressed by gokus power. The power gap between them is considered infinite by our standards. Remillia defeated sakuya with ease in the story. Being easily beaten by someone and simply impressing them does not scale you to them.
Click to expand...
While it is true that the gap between Bills and Goku could be considered "infinite" (Btw which standards?), both in the end have the same tiering right?

Remilia may have easily defeated Sakuya, but the fact that at least Sakuya was able to face her for a moment indicates that, although perhaps the power difference between the two is great, Sakuya should scale Remilia.


And as far as I'm aware back then, there were no Spellcards rules.
 
Yeah. Goku when he fought beerus was infintiely weaker and impressed. Remillia being suprised by her strength could easily be due to the fact that sakuya is at least multi continent level in a verse with mostly island tiers.

Easily defeated likely indicates remillia wasnt going full power. Fighting someone and being easily defeated is never treated as a feat unless you actually contend with them briefly (e.g. white ranger fighting lord zedd). I could fight a 3-A and face them for a few seconds, yet still do no damage nor take an outright hit from them, before getting easily stomped. It wouldnt mean that im 3-B or 3-A

Yes, there were no spellcards rules
 
wasnt the vampire-hunter Sakuya backstory just a theory in-verse and never actually confirmed if it happened or not?
 
Read this post said:
Beerus was impressed by gokus power. The power gap between them is considered infinite by our standards. Remillia defeated sakuya with ease in the story. Being easily beaten by someone and simply impressing them does not scale you to them.
Click to expand...
>Using ******* Dragon Ball Super as an standard of consistency.

Please let's not go down that route.
 
@Junkoposter Yeah. Im guessing saikou left it because it could indicate that sakuya possibly fought remillia. Though it wouldnt really help much. Plus the likelihood that the silver knives are actually a weakness exploitation too which is another story.

@Dvorak Fair point lol. But i am using it as an example of what our standards deem unacceptable. Impressing someone alone unless in direct comparison to the person being impressed, cannot scale them directly
 
Okay since I don't have the time to read through hundreds of posts all at once, could someone summarize all the arguments for and against whatever upgrades have been proposed in this thread thus far for me?

That'd be a big help.
 
Currently the op is accepted and we are discussing scaling issues. Saikous arguing that you are either high tier and scale to oni and hermits who have high 3-A to low 2-C feats or low tier and scale to island level. I'm arguing that it's clear that most of these characters blatantly don't scale to oni or hermits at all physically, and there are tiers in between.

So far I'm guessing saikou is preparing a response. Though I did make the comment longer than I should have, so I would give him time.
 
Now that I've read the OP, all I can say is:

This entire revision is bunk.

This entire description of Avici being "infinite", when viewed in context, is blatantly hyperbolic, as Touhou is a verse known for its hyperboles and exaggerated descriptions of things. All we have going for Avici being "infinite" is a single character statement, not backed up by any independent and external affirmations (I.e. the word of a cosmic being, Word of God, or the word of a character especially knowledgeable on the verse's cosmology).

Cf. Time being described as not passing there, when it's clearly an immaculate hyperbole made to highlight the featurelessness of the realm.

Cf. Avici being described as an unchanging void, despite having a noticeable spatial structure, or at least one that lights up to torches.
 
Read all of the information and I side with both of you on this one. NGL Touhou has been rather downplyed for a while and Read this post has brought up a lot of good points when compared to Saikou's.
 
Spent two lengthy debates arguing that touhou reaches tier 2 (along with having "touhou will never be tier 2" thrown at me constantly outside debates) and barely managed to convince you to them being possibly at that level. And im the one downplaying...

Wank and downplay aside, take your time anyway. But in the meantime you should cover malomteks response when you can. His argument is interesting to say the least
 
Mate have you even seen your scaling?

His arguments seems just like pushing for hyperbole. Which is nice and all, but not applicable when this very specific wording is used several times, both by people who knows their stuff (Being the rulers of hell and a high ranking oni, respectively).
 
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