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Touhou Revisions: Stop bullying me, Junko Edition

-Tengu should scale because the very same statements that [Read this post] has Suika complementing the strength of the Tengu . So with Aya being one of the most noteworthy Tengu. she should scale.

-It's pretty disingenious to say that Reimu, the main character designed to win every fight and needed a Spellcard System for youkai to compete with her, shouldn't scale to Oni and Hermits. The evidence against her being 3-A to 2-C is one spellcard duel, when everything else in the series before that has built her up as an unbeatable Mary Sue. There's also the fact that Reimu wasn't going all out and didn't even use Fantasy Nature . And also how each Touhou Manga uses the viewpoints of different characters to portray Reimu , and the final fight of WaHH was Reimu from Kasen's viewpoint, as retold by Tenshi in a flashback scene. Also: "I'll admit it. You're little fireworks stung a bit." -Kasen after being hit by Fantasy Seal. Bam, Reimu is not infinitely weaker than Kasen.

Thus Marisa should scale via being best girl.

-Perfect Memento in Strict Sense states that Oni slayers could be trained from humans , and seeing as all the humans in Gensokyo are descendants of Youkai hunters, the highly trained ones should scale from Onis. This is evidence for Marisa and Reimu, and probably maybe perhaps to a certain extent Youmu.

-I don't think Reisen should scale, moon rabbits don't have anything going for them IIRC. Aside from being massacred by NASA.
 
How about String theory 11-D Yukari, so we can get even more buffs

So what's the current consensus/status of all this? High 3-A seems the most likely but it seems the discussion suddenly halted.
 
There are some interesting things here but there is a lot of things that are missed out. I'll address it in a sec once I'm back home and amped by my shower

It takes a while due to being extremely busy but there is some stuff I'm getting together and I'd rather not rush it. I'll gladly change anything on the list that is in need of correcting. So please stop excessively bullying me junko. I╠Â'╠Âm╠ ╠Âs╠Ât╠Âa╠Âr╠Ât╠Âi╠Ân╠Âg╠ ╠Ât╠Âo╠ ╠Âr╠Âe╠Âa╠Âl╠Âi╠Âs╠Âe╠ ╠Âw╠Âh╠Ây╠ ╠Âs╠Âa╠Âi╠Âk╠Âo╠Âu╠ ╠Âh╠Âa╠Âs╠ ╠Âb╠Âe╠Âe╠Ân╠ ╠Âd╠Âr╠Âi╠Âv╠Âe╠Ân╠ ╠Ât╠Âo╠ ╠Âu╠Ât╠Ât╠Âe╠Âr╠ ╠Âm╠Âa╠Âd╠Ân╠Âe╠Âs╠Âs╠Â
 
Tengu should scale because the very same statements that [Read this post] has Suika complementing the strength of the Tengu. So with Aya being one of the most noteworthy Tengu. she should scale. Complimenting someones strength unless in comparison to your own does not make you scale at all. Saying you are strong can literally just mean you are strong compared to the other youkai races (which is true regardless). This is like scaling ssg goku directly to beerus because beerus complimented his strength. Oni are still blatantly stronger and tengu have never scaled at all (and iirc there is a tengu rated island level regardless of this)

It's pretty disingenious to say that Reimu, the main character designed to win every fight and needed a Spellcard System for youkai to compete with her, shouldn't scale to Oni and Hermits. The evidence against her being 3-A to 2-C is one spellcard duel, when everything else in the series before that has built her up as an unbeatable Mary Sue. There's also the fact that Reimu wasn't going all out and didn't even use Fantasy Nature. And also how each Touhou Manga uses the viewpoints of different characters to portray Reimu, and the final fight of WaHH was Reimu from Kasen's viewpoint, as retold by Tenshi in a flashback scene. Also: "I'll admit it. You're little fireworks stung a bit." -Kasen after being hit by Fantasy Seal. Bam, Reimu is not infinitely weaker than Kasen.

Fantasy nature and fantasy seal are not ap abilities at all. They are entirely haxed based with fantasy seal being a sealing based ability which allows her to one shot almost any youkai. A one shotting ability that works on any youkai, doubled with intangibility along with exploiting youkai weaknesses, is something that proffessional youkai hunters do as oppose to trying to beat their way to victory and more than enough to class reimu as an op mary sue from the perspective to most youkai regardless of ap.

All this would give her is high 3-A to low 2-C using fantasy skill Yes, with her fantasy abilities not her own physical ap.

Thus Marisa should scale via being best girl Marisa scales close to reimu physically by somewhat keeping up through training regardless.

Perfect Memento in Strict Sense states that Oni slayers could be trained from humans , and seeing as all the humans in Gensokyo are descendants of Youkai hunters, the highly trained ones should scale from Onis. This is evidence for Marisa and Reimu, and probably maybe perhaps to a certain extent Youmu.

This is ignoring the important dialogue shown in the scan you provided

"Because oni are different from regular youkai, the means of extermination and the tools necessary are particular and specialized."

"The technique to exterminate oni have already been lost by humans, thus it would appear that meeting an oni nowadays would be too much for anyone to handle."

"But then, the chances of meeting an oni are already mostly non-existent so they should be no problems"

These youkai hunters dont go in and fight the oni with ap at all. They use specific techniques, special weaponary and haxed abilities to get rid of them (which is basically the case with almost all youkai since youkais main weaknesses are spiritual and hax based and not ap based). Exploiting a weakness, unless shown otherwise does not scale you in ap. The training in context is blatantly refering to them utilising these abilities. Not growing in physical strength.

And this is then futher backed up by the fact that without this technique which has been completely lost, meaning that fighting an oni for anybody human (except reimu due to her fantasy hax) is impossible. So it is pretty obvious that these hunters did not use ap unless they straight up tanked hits from oni (never implied nor shown that they even engaged in full on physical combat with their techniques let alone straight up tanked hits).

That along with reimu needing hax to gradually beat kasen, and statements that youkai are vulnerable to hax based exploitations ultimately proves that the characters use haxed based abilities and weakness exploitations to beat youkai on this level. Which going by our own power scaling rules would only render them as having High 3-A to Low 2-C abilities only.

Also i dont think youmu has ever really been portrayed as being a high tier character iirc.
 
To sum it up. Nobody has ever fought an oni physically or recordingly damaged or taken serious hits from an oni level being. The only recorded time this has happened is when using sealing abilities and other techniques, normally exploiting youkai weaknesses which do not scale to raw ap in the slightest. There is nothing contradicting humans and others except a few noteable races and god tiers being infinitely weaker than oni. Along with nobody being able to ever physically contend with them.

The idea that they scale in ap, when the only thing ever shown and stated is using abilities and techniques to counter their strength, requires speculation and arguments for what should and could have happened in the past. Which can be easily shaved off using occams razor.

You really just need to go by what is canonically stated and shown. Its honestly not left as vague as you may believe.

If reimu actually harmed kasen with a strike or an ap based projectile attack then scale right away. But right now the evidence is lacking and almost completely contradicted.
 
What do you mean? High 3-A possibly Low 2-C is being accepted. Its just discussing which characters get scaled to those with the feats
 
Okay. This is what I have come up with. Character can be moved around if necessary and hopefully a good few unknowns can be moved towards solid tiers as the list may not be perfect at the moment.

Island tiers: Iku Nagae, Seija Kiji, Phantoms, Youki Konpaku, Youmu Konpaku, Reisen Udongein Inaba, Alice Margatroid, Goliath Doll, Nue Houjuu, Yuyuko Saigyouji (Likely far higher? Manages and governs ghosts and spirits in the nether world. Not sure if this would be an unknown though), Roukanken and Hakurouke

Multi Continent tiers (Scaling from Giant Catfish): Hong Meiling, Giant Catfish, Patchouli Knowledge, Sakuya Izayoi, Letty Whiterock

Large star level: Yatagarasu, Utsuho Reiuji

Small Star to Solar System level (Scaling from Marisa): Marisa Kirisame, Yuuka Kazami (Fought Reimu in the past, should probably be comparable at minimum), Reimu Hakurei (Physically superior to marisa), Rinnosuke Morichika (With weapons), Kosuzu Motoori (Likely far higher, stomped marisa), Mini Hakkero

3-A: Amitabha

High 3-A ― Low 2-C: Yuugi Hoshiguma, Yukari Yakumo, Tenshi Hinanawi, Suiki, Shinmyoumaru Sukuna (With the mallet), Remilia Scarlet, Okina Matara, Mononobe no Futo, Kasen Ibaraki, Clownpiece, Flandre Scarlet, Fujiwara no Mokou, Suika Ibuki, Toyosatomimi no Miko, Kaguya Houraisa, Komachi Onozuka (Possibly High 3-A only for this one since Low 2-C here is quite questionable), Eiki Shiki, Saigyou Ayakashi, Ran Yakumo, Yin Yang Orb, Sword of Hisou

Sanae tiers (Unknown): Sanae Kochiya, Kanako Yasaka (Also created sky? Probably not useable tho), Suwako Moriya

Unknown or unsure about: Aya Shameimaru, Byakuren Hijiri, Hasshaku-sama (Scales to Ichirin), Hatate Himekaidou (Not sure if she scales to Aya. She is a tengu. But other tengu are capable of having island level ratings so…), Ichirin Kumoi (Probably scales to hasshaku), Iwanagahime, Keine Kamishirasawa, Konohana-Sakuyahime, Lord Tenma (Scales above aya), Mamizou Futatsuiwa (Scales to or possibly above byakuren), Shou Toramaru (Technically a disciple of bishamonten. Im not entirely sure how she scales), Occult Balls (IIrc the lunarian occult balls are actually better than the normal ones. Though the ones used to break the barrier are entirely magical properties. So im unsure whether this is unknown or has an applicable tier at least in a key), Sumireko Usami (refer to occult balls)

Notes:

-Reimus fantasy seal and yin yang orbs are High 3-A to Low 2-C. Should probably be listed as this rating hax and weaponary.

-Patchouli is likely multi continent level due to being remillias high ranking servants and likely being comparable, if not superior to the likes of meiling. Sakuya should definitely be superior to meiling from what I know, though its unknown whether she scales to higher characters. Which is why im more leaning towards Unknown, At least High 6-A likely far higher.

-Due to the fact that the catfish causing the earths surface to disintegrate with his High 6-A attack potency is considered an incident, this could be used as a way to somewhat quantify what it takes to cause an incident rather than "you must be directly high tier to cause an incident". Letty whiterock is there for that reason but would have an Unknown, Likely High 6-A rating

-Suika should have her reasoning for possibly low 2-C listed on her profile do avoid confusion as to why she scales to those with the low 2-C feats (since heaven shattering is only High 3-A)

-Some of the island tiers can be likely far higher or whatever you feel comfortable with putting

-The current High 4-Cs that scale, will be High 3-A possibly Low 2-C, while the current 4-As will be At least High 3-A possibly Low 2-C.

-Unknowns are generally people who don't have enough to go off of to give them a solid tier, but cant be comfortably be rated as island level. Some on the unknown list im just unsure about where to place them.
 
Read this post said:
-Patchouli is likely multi continent level due to being remillias high ranking servants and likely being comparable, if not superior to the likes of meiling. Sakuya should definitely be superior to meiling from what I know, though its unknown whether she scales to higher characters. Which is why im more leaning towards Unknown, At least High 6-A likely far higher.
Click to expand...
Hey wait a minute, Patchy is not one of Remilia's servant, she is Remilia's friend.

That's all I'll need to say :eek:k_hand:
 
Okay so, the new "feats":

-Catfish: It's not a ******* feat. It's a dream. I don't care that the Dream World is a thing, it's a world where explictly anything can happen. Hong could have been busting multiverses in her dreams for what it's worth, it wouldn't make her 2-B. You can't scale the dreams to the real world, even in Touhou. Also, Suwako definitively is not a feat.

-Marisa: Like I said, her feat is too vague to support the scaling of the entire verse on its own. This is besides the fact that Marisa not scaling to High 3-A and such is ridiculous.

-Yatagarasu: It was never High 4-C by itself. It would be only 4-C. But even then, a lunarian god being below a random Gensokyo hermit is ridiculous.

-Amitabha: The feat is fine, but the scaling should make him High 3-A either way.

Regarding Reimu's Fantasy Seal, it isn't stronger than her by such an amount. It's just a super attack, not something that's literally infinitely stronger than her. The Yin-Yang orbs are directly imbued with the Hakurei God's power so they have a reason to be stronger than Reimu, but not Fantasy Seal.

Now for the faulty scaling:

Alice Margatroid: Again, it makes no sense for her to be this much weaker than Marisa. She is nearly always compared to Marisa, even if it's not in term of sheer power. She's outright called a youkai version of Marisa. You don't need a direct statement to scale characters. Just the sheer fact that she's not even remotely implied to be this much weaker than Marisa is enough reasons to assume that she's not this much weaker. The same applies to most other characters that will follow.

Youmu Konpaku: I don't feel as strongly about her as others, but I do still find it odd for Youmu to be this much weaker than the person she's training (Yuyuko).

Nue Houju: She's considered a legendary youkai and is big pals with Mamizou, even in the outside world, on top of being implied to be on her level. Plus also being a major part of the Myouren Temple.

Yuyuko Saigyouji: It doesn't matter that there aren't any Onis in the Netherworld. She still rules over like 1/3rd of the Afterlife. That's certainly more than a single Kishin can say. There is no way that she scales under onis to this degree.

Hong Meilling: Less sure, but I still really doubt she'd be significantly weaker than the one she's supposed to protect. Obviously no to the Giant Catfish thing.

Patchouli Knowledge: Same reasons as Alice, except even more, given her status as a powerful mage (and the fact that Alice is comparatively just a novice)

Sakuya Izayoi: Her backstory hints that she might have fought Remilia and other vampires. Even wtihout that, she's still pretty much the head of the mansion and served as Remilia's main way of doing things before the Spell Cards.

Letty Whiterock: No special reasons to scale to either the Catfish or the High 3-A people. Incidents have been done by 6-C people before.

Yatagarasu: As said above, he's an avatar of a Lunarian God. He's definitively above Gensokyo hermits.

Marisa Kirisame: As I said before, she was a fellow Youkai Hunter and a rival to Reimu before EoSD and thus before the Spell Cards, on top of her profile saying that she has pretty much top tier magical strength among humans (which would include hermits and Reimu)

Reimu Hakurei: Again, she was and still is THE youkai hunter. It's very likely she had to fight people comparable to her current enemies before SCR. It makes no sense for her to be this much weaker than hermits or strong youkai.

Yuuka Kazami: Her power is emphased more than every other youkai. She most definitively scales to random hermits. Also implied to have fought Reimu, yeah.

Sanae Kochiya: Fellow shrine maiden and youkai hunter like Reimu, on top of being a fellow god of the Moriya Shrine.

Aya Shameimaru: Her power is said to be "top class" in Gensokyo. And top class does not imply "infinitely weaker than a hermit". I rest my case.

-Byakuren Hijiri: The fact that Miko was stunlocked by seals from random buddhist monks and the fact that Byakuren herself prevented Miko's resurrection should be proof enough that yes, Hermits being infinitely more powerful than the likes of Byakuren makes no sense.

Hatate Himekaidou: She is a similar tengu Aya in a similar position of power. I really doubt there is much of a gap between the two.

Mamizou Futaswuia: Transforms into Reimu and Miko, leader of a large faction, likely comparable to Byakuren, etc.

Occult Balls: Sumireko herself did the feat of almost busting the barrier. With the Occult Balls she had. Not just through the Lunar Capital one.


Also no, Unknow won't be a thing either way. Either we rate them as stronger than Cirno or we scale them to stronger people. We don't give out Unknowns for being stronger than another character to this degree.

I repeat what I said earlier: You're pulling a Pokémon. Scaling specific feats to specific people, resulting in a scaling where certain characters are nonsensically far stronger than others. You need to accept that non-direct scaling and the sheer fact that certain characters can exist in the same environment without subatomizing each other is a legitimate form of scaling in such a verse. You need to accept that, yes, a character not being implied to be infinitely stronger than another in a combat-centric verse is a contradiction, a huge ass one at that. Your scaling idea just doesn't work.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
<snip>
Click to expand...
Um, if I'm allowed to say something, I really feel that you should reinforce your arguments more so that they would be something more accurate (and careful with this I'm not saying that you're wrong or something, especially if this implies an upgrade to Patchouli).
 
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