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Touhou Revisions: Stop bullying me, Junko Edition

Read this post said:
Those were only a few abilities noted in the op. This other stuff you mention is about different abilities for a wide variety of characters that doesnt tie in with the current discussion or op. It is probably more practical to make a seperate revision to discuss all these new changes.
Click to expand...
I'd like to know the difference between the op and what I've actually said.

Apart it is not that I have mentioned too many abilities, only about those missing from Eiki and the thing of the miracles of the gods. And like I said, it's a General Revision, no one specified that it's just the AP.

And Saikou is taking a long time, I get bored v;
 
I can't really believe that I really read everything, it took me 5 hours
Anyway I think I agree with read on most points
Though I would have liked to see Riemu and Marisa at a higher level than a solar system, but considering Riemu as a solar system level and high 3A possible low 2C with his abilities much better than being a large star level or island level
I see scaling Alice and Patchouli to Mirissa really silly
And finally I'm not sure about the multi-continental feat can really be counted
And I hope that this discussion will end to see finally the Touhou characters of at a high tier
 
There is a little problem with giving reimu the ratings with abilities and thats how they are treat. As i mentioned with the occult balls, due to their spiritual properties, are nothing more than a heavy ball to humans but deadly to youkai. Same seems to apply for fantasy seal to an extent where its stated more effective to youkai than humans (though at least not to the extent that the occult balls are from what i recall).

From what i see, the techniques used function towards youkai in a similar way that kryptonite functions towards superman where the attack would deal heavy damage towards them, but be a normal attack in comparison to everything else.

However fantasy seal is stated to be reimus most powerful attack and be able to "one shot" almost any youkai. Depending on how you interpret it, fantasy seal being low 2-C might not be completely out of the question. But I do find it hard to comfortably give the ability that tier at least without a "possibly" rating.
 
I have another question, earlier, you said 3C characters (PC 98 era) will upgrade Is that true? Especially you did not mention feat from the PC 98 era


Also, as far as I know, Yuuka is one of the strongest Youkai and not only very strong Youkai, i suspect that means it will be upgraded
 
Pc 98 does not get affected by this

If there is a statement for her being among the strongest youkai as oppose to just being a strong one, then i don't see anything wrong with scaling her to high universal.
 
As I have concluded, Touhou characters will be this way

Low Tier : Island level for any character in a level or stronger than Cirno

Mid Tier : Multi-continental level for any character in the level or stronger than Hong Meiling

High Tier : star level to solar system level for any character in the level of Marisa and Riemu

Top Tier : high universe level to the universe level of any character in the level of Oni, Hermit and Vampires

God Tier : At least high universe to at least universe possible far higher for any character from the Windows era now considered 4A

Unknown to each character can not be measured to the rest of the characters like Aya

Well, I think Keine should also be in the low 2C level. Eating the history in her human form might not be enough, but creating the history in her Hakutaku form shold be in that level.
And I think it should be AP and not just hax so how not to be creation a timeline AP
 
i suggest that more revisions should happen

obviously the tier 9 should be the higher tier on this wiki with only our favorite 9 ball in the tier .
 
The low 2-C stuff actually comes from the currant high 4-Cs who scale

The current 4-As would only get an at least rating due to being so far above everyone while the high 4-Cs would be high 3-a possibly low 2-C
 
You mean altering histories? I think her wereform is able to manipulate alternate histories from what i remember, so if it were considered tier 2, here second form would be 2-C as a result. Im not so sure.

But from what i hear, it might be out of context and not actually tier 2.
 
I also think this is out of context it would be really ridiculous to Kiene be stronger than Onis, vampires and Yukari
 
Onis, vampires, hermits, Kaguya, Fujiwara, Yukari and any other character in their level or stronger than them should have upgade According to Read opinion

But Saikou wants to upgrade several other characters
 
The first and biggest problem with this is that, again, you can be weaker than someone and still be comparable.

The main issue I haven't seen any of Reads post explain convincingly is explain to me why people that have literally no believable reason to be so, apparently just exist infinitely less powerful than other people.
 
Have you read my posts at all? They are infinitely weaker because they have absolutely no reason to scale and have shown and stated to not be comparable. I've proven that repeatedly. Your argument is just a no limits fallacy as I've also explained already. It is just like me saying "majin buu is low 2-C because he isn't proven infinitely weaker than beerus". I could literally use your exact logic to upgrade cirno and it would make just as little sense

If someone has feats of infinite power and another character has never been able to physically contend with them nor has shown feats or scaling on their level, then they can be presumed infinitely weaker. That's what we do with every other verse with fiction. Because if we used the logic you are using, nearly every verse that reaches tier 1 and 2 would have every character scale to that level.
 
Except Majin Buu, in your "example", actually would be proven to be infinitely weaker as people he scales to, and then scale stupidly above him by way of new feats, are utterly and irremediably useless in front of Beerus. The problem here is what you consider is sufficient enough for being treated comparable, which seems oddly rigid. Majin Buu, and the Touhou characters, AREN'T sealed in glass bottles. They compare between each other making chains of difference - that's what scaling chains are. I would hope you'd know this if you are even citing DB.

The idea of physically contending feels like a very... weird and odd one when that isn't even the main way to go about things in Gensokyo, fighting games notwithstanding. Like Saikou said, this feels more like an irrational fear to scaling people because high tiers and what feels like insufficient proof. Rather, there's enough space in Low 2-C for someone to be utterly weak in the eyes of someone else and still be in the same tier. Once again, like DB. Just to drive the point home.
 
Except Majin Buu, in your "example", actually would be proven to be infinitely weaker as people he scales to, and then scale stupidly above him by way of new feats, are utterly and irremediably useless in front of Beerus. Okay, so beerus is proven infinitely superior to buu by the fact that beerus has feats of infinite power, while buu has none and is cannonically useless in comparison.

So how comes oni aren't proven infinitely superior when they have feats of infinite power, while the characters in question have none, and are shown and stated to be cannonically useless in comparison to them in terms of physical power? Needing to retort to spiritual hax and special weaponary to even do anything?

The problem here is what you consider is sufficient enough for being treated comparable, which seems oddly rigid. Majin Buu, and the Touhou characters, AREN'T sealed in glass bottles. They compare between each other making chains of difference - that's what scaling chains are. I would hope you'd know this if you are even citing DB. A scaling chain is formed when someone is shown comparable either through being able to somewhat contend or being close to them or being more powerful than them, with the former putting them close to the level of the character.

What do you believe I consider as sufficient enough for being treated as comparable?

The idea of physically contending feels like a very... weird and odd one when that isn't even the main way to go about things in Gensokyo, fighting games notwithstanding. You dont have to physically contend. You need something actually implying you being physically comparable and not just something completely non combat related or needing hax or special weaponary to do so (again, read our own powerscaling standards).

Also its rather odd that you say how physical fighting isnt how things are done in gensokyo (which only supports my point in that characters being different tiers is not contradictory) and label it as a fighting game.

Like Saikou said, this feels more like an irrational fear to scaling people because high tiers and what feels like insufficient proof. Not scaling someone because they are not only consistently weaker, but the reasoning for them scaling being flawed or nonexistent is not an irrational fear

Rather, there's enough space in Low 2-C for someone to be utterly weak in the eyes of someone else and still be in the same tier. Once again, like DB. Just to drive the point home. If you are utterly weak in the eyes of a low 2-C but have proven to be low 2-C through feats or scaling to another low 2-C then yes, you can still be low 2-C. If you are utterly weak in the eyes of a low 2-C and have no low 2-C feats or other means of scaling, then you are not the same tier. Just like DB.
 
Read this post said:
The low 2-C stuff actually comes from the currant high 4-Cs who scale
The current 4-As would only get an at least rating due to being so far above everyone while the high 4-Cs would be high 3-a possibly low 2-C
Click to expand...
What is the second statement supposed to mean exactly? If you mean that the 4-As would only become At Least 4-A while people like Yukari and Suika get High 3-A, possibly Low 2-C then that would be very wrong because it has been stated and made clear numerous times that those characters are far superior to characters who are, for right now, High 4-C. Wouldn't it be better to give them High 3-A, possibly Low 2-C, (far) higher via powerscaling, or something like that?
 
Can we just straight up make that new thread.

The subject of the thread changed entirely, and this thread's hugeness is killing all my motivation to actually answer.
 
You don't give "far higher via powerscaling" to characters. Such add on to tiers are for when you are using a technique or form far above your base power.

"Likely/possibly far higher" is given if there's the implication that you are of a higher tier, whether through scaling or overall context. I don't think any amount of rolfstomping a low 2-c would make a case for a character being above that tier themselves tho so I don't think that's warranted either
 
Well, due to the 4-As being on a completely different level from the normal High 3-A possibly Low 2-Cs, it does make their High 3-A possibly Low 2-C rating indetermite. So adding at least to the current 4-As ratings does make more sense and still gives un understanding of the power gap between each set of characters.
 
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