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Touhou Revisions: Stop bullying me, Junko Edition

Few things I should note. Hermits and oni through statements are comparable. So anybody who scales to or above them should scale (vampires included). Also this logic of being strong in verse needs to go. Being strong in verse does not make you automatically high tier level. If we did this with other verses then every verse would only 3 or 4 tiers for every character. Some of these characters that scale are literally inferior to the likes of oni and yet they are being backscaled because of being stated strong despite this statement alone only putting them in mid tier. Do I even need to explain why this leads to major inconsistencies? Imagine if I went into a dragon ball thread and stated "the grand priest as a top tier god should not be infinitely weaker than zeno".

If someone is stated to be among the top tier youkai and language implies it to include the likes of oni (who literally have power that defys imagination which alone makes scaling them to nearly everyone in gensokyo illogical) then I agree. But if they are simply stated to be incredibly strong, then no, there is no reason to assume it at all.

-Alice Margatroid: Superiority to Reimu is definitely spellcard banter yes. And there is barely anything suggesting alice being physical rivals with marisa. Yes they do have a love hate relationship which results in fighting at the moment. But there is nothing suggesting that any physical fighting went on before spellcards. And even if they did, who is to say marisa wasn't just playfighting or just letting alice attack her and holding back? Theres no reason at all for them to have ever fought on par with eachother (also even if they fought full power marisa one shotting wouldn't even matter because of regen)


-Amitabha: Probably should scale to the ones mentioned. Though they do not scale to hermits or oni. Amitabha is still 3-A anyway lolf.


-Aya Shameimaru: Really strong… Greeeeaaaat... Tengu are literally stated personally by aya massively inferior to oni multiple times. They don't scale in the slightest.


-Byakuren Hijiri: Seriously saikou. Have you got any evidence at all that this rivalry would have existed before spellcards or that they would have fought back then? Or is it just more assumptions?


-Giant Catfish: Im pretty sure he was just mimicking there powers. He never used their full physical power iirc. However he was planning to absorb hongs power to destroy the earths surface which could potentially scale to meiling if useable


-Goliath Doll: Stronger than alice? Isnt it just her strongest doll? Although maybe she should be comparable to her strongest dolls.


-Hasshaku-sama: Scales to Ichirin.


-Hatate Himekaidou: They should be comparable. Though aya doesn't scale to hermits


-Hecatia Lapislazuli: Literally fodder. What the hell?


-Hong Meilling: I really dont think being remillas guard is necessarily a feat considering remillia theoretically and believably stomped one of her best guards sakuya in full on combat before and there isnt much to scale to. However. There is the giant catfish who was originally going to use meilings powers alone to cause "the earth to tremble". Couldn't this be scaled to mieling?


-Ichirin Kumoi: Sorry but when? Anything physical or extending before spellcards?


-Iku Nagae: Should likely be downgraded if that's the case


-Iwanagahime: Seems like another unknown along with kanako. Whether they scale is also unknown.


-Kanako Yasaka: Does scale above sanae. But is there any evidence at all that all religious leaders are the same level?


-Keine Kamishirasawa: Unless there is evidence of her defending the village against hermits or oni, there is not enough to go on (unless you take her whole history thing as low 2-C)


-Konohana-Sakuyahime: Same was Iwanagahime.


-Kosuzu Motoori: Only if this includes the oni and hermits. If there is no evidence for that, then scaling to marisa should be fine if it is true.


Letty Whiterock: I added this in because I wanted to mention that there is no indication as to how much power it takes to cause an incident. It is once again based on the assumption that every high tier is comparable.


-Lord Tenma: Okay…


-Mamizou Futatsuiwa: Turning into someone does not imply giving them the same physical power. Its just a transformation/power mimicry. Should scale to byakuren yes. But that isnt useful unless byakuren has feats to back it up.


-Marisa Kirisame: The problem with this is that, they have never been considered physical rivals. Marisa is considered weaker and can barely keep up while constantly training. There is just no evidence marisa scales of fought on par with a high tier youkai alongside reimu (unless you straight up use pc98) coupled with people fighting alongside one another in other verses all the time and don't scale (avengers, justice league, z fighters. All iconic examples). When did marisa ever almost kill seiga?


-Nue Houjuu: She is one of the most mysterious and feared youkai. But I don't see how this puts her as a top tier youkai with the oni and hermits. Being mysterious and powerful are very different things. This seems more like an unknown.


-Occult Balls: Im pretty sure the occult balls in the real world have special paradoxical properties that defy common sense allowing them to break through the barrier. The barrier isnt just broken through raw physical power here. Though the ones the lunar capital used probably scale if theyre not some advanced versions.


-Patchouli Knowledge: The entire supposed rivalry is just marisa stealing books from the library and patchouli scolding her for it. No evidence it is long standing enough and nothing to remotely suggest they ever fought at full power.


-Reimu Hakurei: Considering how her recent fight with Kasen went out. I find that hard to believe


-Reisen Udongein Inaba: I do agree on this one


-Sakuya Izayoi: Well, ive heard of remillia needing fate manip to beat them (but im pretty sure that's speculator). There is sakuya believing she could take on a vampire in this scenario which may or may not be true. I think sakuya may just be unknown since there is stuff looking at this.


-Sanae Kochiya: No physical related rivalry. Never implied to fought before, you know how this works. Unless you wanna argue all shrine maidens are comparable. Even though sanae works as a different type of shrine maiden than reimu.


-Seija Kijin: I agree with seija being at least island level


-Shou Toramaru/Bishamonten: Really not a good reason for scaling at all

-Sumireko Usami: If occult balls truly scale then yes


-Suwako Moriya: Does scale to kanako at least


-Utsuho Reiuji: Scales to yatagarasu


-Yatagarasu: True. Though kanako doesn't scale to that level. They should still be star to large star level


-Youki Konpaku: Should scale to youmu though her stats are questioned below


-Youmu Konpaku: Not sure how she scales to the resolvers physically. But for the high ranking servant, it just depends on whether other servants would scale to that level, which I don't really buy. Might be the same problem as reisen.

-Yuuka Kazami: Considering how useless being strong has shown so far. I don't how if it scales. But she should be comparable or superior to reimu due to them actually fighting before

-Yuyuko Saigyouji: Oni don't even exist in the netherworld. Just normal ghosts that go there. She just governs the place. There is literally nothing to scale her to.
 
I was gonna go over each of your points, but then I realized that 90% of your "arguments" are just "bUt doEs it AppLY to oNis aNd herMits??". Which is goddamn dumb. Because you're implying that literally everyone in Gensokyo is wimpy fodder to the almightly hermits that terrifies the entire verse due to their universal reality warping while even the strongest of non-hermit characters are 6-C fodder.

This isn't a goddamn shonen where you can be 10 different levels of power. It's Touhou. You're either slightly stronger than fodder or you're not infinitely weaker than the big boys of Gensokyo. Also comparing Zen'o to the likes of Miko is ridiculous and you know it.

You also have to accept that Spell Cards do not invalidate the entire hierarchy of the verse. Sure most conflicts are done through them, but they're a relatively recent addition that does not change any hierarchy. Weak characters are still considered weak even in spell cards, it just means that they can beat stronger characters from times to time. So characters being comparable even now should still be legit.

This is getting as ridiculous as pre-revisions Pokémon. Y'know, when certain characters were arbitrarily much, much stronger than others due to an irrational fear of scaling. The portrait of the verse you're making requires more assumption than simply scaling people to each other if they're portrayed as/implied to be comparable.
 
I was gonna go over each of your points, but then I realized that 90% of your "arguments" are just "bUt doEs it AppLY to oNis aNd herMits??". Because they are literally the only ones who have feats on this level coupled with them being the most powerful youkai race in gensokyo. How is this contradicted. And no. The ones on your list i didnt mention do scale. Them being one of the most powerful youkai race is what is consistently shown in verse. Even the more powerful youkai you scale to them are stated weaker. Even reimu has shown weaker (shown in verse and literally stated in suikas profile)

Which is goddamn dumb. Because you're implying that literally everyone in Gensokyo is wimpy fodder to the almightly hermits that terrifies the entire verse due to their universal reality warping while even the strongest of non-hermit characters are 6-C fodder. Nice strawman. There are still characters in the original list in gensokyo that scale to hermits. And along with that, feats above 6-C i mentioned. So you are talking nonsense without even reading through my comment properly.

This isn't a goddamn shonen where you can be 10 different levels of power. Its Touhou Yes there can be different levels of power. If a character has feats on a certain level, they are that level unless they are explicitely shown otherwise through scaling, then they are that level. If you just assume every character the level until proven otherwise, then you are just creating a no limits fallacy. Face it. You have nothing at all that scales these characters to the exact same level of power. To assuming every rivalry (no matter the type) involved physical fighting at one point with no evidence. And that every strong character scales those listed as being an immensely strong race.

It's Touhou. You're either slightly stronger than fodder or you're not infinitely weaker than the big boys of Gensokyo. When has this ever been a rule in the verse? This is literally just headcannon. You can be massively stronger than low tiers and infinitely weaker than high tiers. Dragon ball is a prime example of this. Why can this concept not apply to touhou? Not everyone has to scale to island level.

Also comparing Zen'o to the likes of Miko is ridiculous and you know it. This is a strawman. I never compared zeno to miko. I was pointing out your obscene of logic saying that all high tiers must be comparable in strength.

You also have to accept that Spell Cards do not invalidate the entire hierarchy of the verse. I never said they do. But you cant just assume a specific hierarchy limited to three tiers only exists with nothing to back it up.

Sure most conflicts are done through them, but they're a relatively recent addition that does not change any hierarchy. Weak characters are still considered weak even in spell cards, it just means that they can beat stronger characters from times to time. So characters being comparable even now should still be legit. No it shouldnt. Strong characters do not scale to every other strong character in the series. You can be fodder to half the verse and strong compared to the other half and still be labeled as a strong character. Aya is living proof of that.

This is getting as ridiculous as pre-revisions Pokémon. Y'know, when certain characters were arbitrarily much, much stronger than others due to an irrational fear of scaling. The portrait of the verse you're making requires more assumption than simply scaling people to each other if they're portrayed as/implied to be comparable. Again

1. None of the ones i listed are implied comparable in terms of strength (sometimes even being blatantly contradicted). I debunked it myself.

2. Your idea of all high tier characters are comparable is blatantly contradicted and never once implied in verse. Along with that, nearly all these supposed rivalries never once happening in verse

3. Simply giving certain characters an unknown rating (or an actual rating using feats) if they have nothing to scale from is not an assumption. All of your claims to scaling are literal headcannon never shown at all throughout the series. If you want to continue to take my arguments completely out of context and scale everyone to the same level because of three tier hierarchy you believe exists in verse

Also i dont even think oni actually scale to hermits based on this list (unless maybe you use kasen?).

If you want to continue to go against what is implied in verse and built all our profiles apon baseless assumptions that everyone is either island level or universal only rather the actual depiction of how they scale then be my guest.
 
Junkoposter said:
yeah, ima agree with Saikou on this one
Click to expand...
No offence junko. But you made said that less than two minutes after saikou made that response. Do you honestly believe everything he says right off the bat?
 
There is still a star splitting feat from marisa (and a few characters who actually scale) a possible multi continent for meiling and catfish and maybe a feat from suwako of creating earth (though im pretty sure thats just earth manipulation in context iirc). If someone shouldnt scale around the same level as island level fodder but doesnt have scaling on the level of those with the feats (without making massive leaps in logic and assumptions), then they should simply be unknown. Because giving someone a solid high 3-A rating because someone has a relationship can in some way be considered a rivalry is obscene.
 
I honestly don't agree with your statements about "Only people who are comparable to onis and hermits should scale." And your only argument against people that actually do scale is "But are they equal without the spell card rules?"
 
Unoriginal Memes said:
I honestly don't agree with your statements about "Only people who are comparable to onis and hermits should scale." And your only argument against people that actually do scale is "But are they equal without the spell card rules?"
Click to expand...
Oni and hermits are the only ones being scaled to in saikous list and it is completely baseless in almost every way. If someone scales to another with high 3-A feats then they should be given that rating. That isnt my only argument. They is literally nothing implying they ever fought full power.

Like, the last one is literally trying to scale a character to oni and hermits. Despite their position meaning they would have never interacted with them at all. What kind of logic is that?
 
People like Reimu should honestly scale. You, on the other hand, consider Reimu to be fodder compared to literally all onis and hermits. Spell cards don't make that much of a difference in the fights. They only allow poeple like Cirno to be capable of harming people like Marisa. But they don't automatically make the weaker character win.
 
@Unoriginal Memes Because kasen when she fought reimu literally shrugged off her attacks like they were nothing. Reimu only beat her using a special sword piece used to seal Kasen. And that's also ussing another Kasen's help and multiple fantasy sealings. And then Kasen just regened even after she disappeared. I never said they make the weaker character win. What are you even talking about?
 
@Unoriginal Memes When? The only time this has happened outside spellcards is pc 98 which isnt even cannon. If you have evidence of reimu scaling to them or anybody with these feats, then show it.

Anybody can beat anybody using spellcard rules. Using spellcards as a way to scale just because someone made fun at the end is ridiculous. Spellcards is a beauty contest using non physical tactics to win. Bullying someone through them is if anything skill based, not power based. Her being cocky at the end isnt a reason to scale.

By you own logic, you would scale every character in the verse simply because their victories cant be ignored only by the fact they were done through spellcards.
 
@Unoriginal Memes If there was a verse where nobody fought and every battle was done through a chess match, would you be saying the same thing? The only instance where reimu fought oni full power, she couldnt damage them. But somehow a battle that allows anybody to fight anybody overrides that. How do you not see the error in logic here?

Strength means nothing at all in spellcard rules. I dont even think saikou made that argument. Its almost as if you guys jump on his side right off the gate. Because you havent read through this properly man.
 
It's not a matter of spell cards fights themselves being useable. They aren't.

It's that Spell Card Rules don't overwrite any and all scalings. Most statements about strength still relates to actual strength. Hierarchies based around power still relates to actual strength.

To use your chess match example, being good at chess doesn't make you seem stronger to other people, it doesn't allow you to rule over weaker people.
 
@Saikou Spellcards dont overwrite scalings. They only overwrite spellcard battles, their outcomes and banter. If someone is stated superior or strong compared to anybody who has the feats, scales to anybody who has the feats through similar or different but usable means, then yes, they should scale.

Should i mention that spellcard banter that you are using where a character acts superior or comparable to another character using spellcards would literally scale cirno directly to marisa?

Seriously man. You cant just scale characters to other characters simply because they are strong even though the strong characters are stated and shown to be below the strong characters you scale them to (reimu and aya). Shattering an infinite space is considered a godlike feat to even reimu and you are treating it as if nearly anybody in the verse can reach that level or perform it.

A mid tier character in any verse can be labeled as strong, and that is a fact. No amount of "hierarchy" or "shouldnt be too far below" will ever change that.

Both chess and spellcards are competitive "battles" that anybody can play, and is affected by another form of skill that is not strength related at all. The only difference is that people who play spell cards act like its a real battle. If people who played chess acted like it was a battle, a chess champion would not scale above another in strength. Same applies here
 
Look saikou. Im going to be real here. I dont want this thread to turn toxic. You and everyone around you jumped on my entire comment based on the rough wording before even looking at what i said properly. You havent read through my comment properly and looked at what would actually be implied through the scaling.

Some characters would be mid tiers (a few different degrees), some would be high tiers, and some would be island tiers and a few will be unknown (unless you are really afraid of our profiles being honest and saying unknown about a few ch aracters in a verse with hundreds of characters and little scaling). You cant act like there is no other method of scaling than applying rules to the verse that dont exist when there are plenty of options other than what you propose. Otherwise its just cherry picking.

How about before you start trying to make rapid conclusions, you read my post, look at what the scaling would actually imply, stop strawmanning and making false comparisons, and actually answer some of the questions i asked in the list because it seems like you havent acknowledged them at all as usual.

If you dont want to decode the list then ill tell you the scaling tomorrow. Because this whole thing is spiralling out of control. If spoon feeding my point is the only way to make you listen without immediately appealing to extremes and strawmanning then so be it.
 
Not forcing you to or anything. But do you want to explain why the debunks towards saikou scaling list are wrong? Because I don't think anybody has remotely addressed that yet.
 
I think it's more that people have actually adddressed it quite directly, Saikou and Unoriginal at that, but you don't find the answer satisfactory on the least.
 
Nobody has addresses or debunked

Aya (a strong character) being directly inferior to the oni they claim she scales to (and basically her entire race)

Reimu unable to harm kasen physically

Rivalries not being rivalries at all or having nothing supporting scaling for it

Religious leaders not being comparable

The multiple questions I've left open for discussion

The characters who scale in between island and universal

I don't care about he answer itself. But so far, saikou and others have literally done nothing but make up absolute garbage I never said and completely exaggerating the point I made about the scaling involving hermits and oni.
 
At what point has scaling necessitated the character to be the complete equal of someone else...? Someone inferior can scale to someone superior if they aren't fodderized without effort. You don't need to be infinitely stronger than someone to beat them after all.

And I don't care nor do I have a strong opinion about sages and hermits and onis and whatever the heck. But it feels less like people are cherry picking and more like you don't feel these justifications are enough, which I disagree with.
 
Because backscaling character A from character B, when character A has personally stated that character Bs entire race is stronger than they will ever be, simply because they are both considered strong in verse is illogical. This logic would literally scale the likes of ssg goku to beerus if it were applied to that verse.

The argument is that touhou doesnt have a lot to scale from and therefore characters can be assumed either high tier or low tier. But when scaling is given, its basically disregarded and the character scales anyway.

There is nothing at all stopping an oni or hermit from one shotting the likes of aya. And nothing scaling someone like reimu to high 3-A when it is blatantly contradicted by her being unable to harm them and needing hax to retort which is dictated by our own standards. That is two examples of strong characters being unable to physically contend with the high 3-As of the verse.

This supposed hierarchy being presented is contradicted, unproven and requires more assumptions than having certain characters as unknown and others scaling as mid tiers.

If there is good reason for the justifications, im fine with it. But so far, the logic being presented is completely fallacious and entirely built apon baseless assumptions. It seems to attempt to follow the power scaling via in verse ratings. Yet tiers like are not an established thing with in touhou, a verse where anybody can completely vary in power and it wont make a difference.

But thank you for at least giving a reasonable response. Sorry if im getting heated.

Edit: Ill look at saikous response tomorrow.
 
Being inferior doesn't mean you don't scale.

It was a spell card battle (like any other, really). She also wasn't explicitly stated to be unable to harm her, she was just inferior. Like said above.

Refer to the points above about how spell card rules don't invalidate hierachies so character matched up as rivals can still scale.

Again, point above. Most religious organizations figuratively and literally fight over control of the human village. It's not just religious organizations mind you, several factions fight over control of Gensokyo. And it makes little to no sense for the strongest characters of these factions to be fodder to another.

There is no such thing. The Catfish is literally a dream, in case you forgot, Suwako's ""feat"" is hilariously not a feat at all and Marisa's own feat is too vague for its own good. It always was just a supporting feat. There is also the fact that Marisa should still be comparable to Reimu due to their relationship before the Spell Card Rules and due to both of them dealing with most youkai before those rules still means that they shouldn't be, y'know, infinitely weaker than random hermits.

"Absolute garbage I never said"? It's not like most of your rebuttals to your list was complaining how about people don't explictly punch onis and hermits in the face instead of just accepting that due to the fact that hermits (which aren't god tiers by any means) are part of the general power level of the verse now, characters who are considered to be really strong have no reasons to be that much weaker than those.
 
Sorry if i got overly heated earlier. I was not prepared to deal with multiple responses rushing in, had a lot going on and ended up making pretty lackluster arguments here and there. My mistake. E╠Âv╠Âe╠Ân╠ ╠Ât╠Âh╠Âo╠Âu╠Âg╠Âh╠ ╠Âi╠Ât╠Âs╠ ╠Âm╠Âo╠Âs╠Ât╠Âl╠Ây╠ ╠Ây╠Âo╠Âu╠Âr╠ ╠Âf╠Âu╠Âc╠Âk╠Âi╠Ân╠Âg╠ ╠Âf╠Âa╠Âu╠Âl╠Ât╠ ╠Âf╠Âo╠Âr╠ ╠Ân╠Âo╠Ât╠ ╠Âl╠Âe╠Ât╠Ât╠Âi╠Ân╠Âg╠ ╠Âm╠Âe╠ ╠Âg╠Âo╠ ╠Âo╠Ân╠ ╠Âm╠Ây╠ ╠Âb╠Âr╠Âe╠Âa╠Âk╠Â

Again, point above. Most religious organizations figuratively and literally fight over control of the human village. It's not just religious organizations mind you, several factions fight over control of Gensokyo. And it makes little to no sense for the strongest characters of these factions to be fodder to another.

Completely forgetting it is SCR and also not literally fighting. It's only gaining popularity. Since when has any religios faction actually fought to death to gain more believers?

Heck, why would they even consent to spellcards to begin with if they were simply willing to just start a war, kill everyone to begin with and take over that way?

One thing that also goes against your idea that oni and the other youkai races on that level, if they had infinite superiority over the other characters, would have taken over by now. Is that nobody in touhou is a bloodthirsty shao kahn like warlord who is willing to massacare civilisations to take over gensokyo (at least not without scr). Zun himself even confirms that nobody in touhou is like this and those who cause incidents are simply mislead. Even on the occasion where a powerful youkai like remillia attempts to attack humans (not gain control or power), she is ganged up on by every youkai and their mother.

You also ignore that there are ways to actually stop these characters even if they tried such as durability negation and exploiting weaknesses. And ignoring the fact that oni and hermits are still physically superior to everyone regardless.

So even by your own twisted logic that hermits and oni havent taken over gensokyo if they had infinite superiority, you are not making sense. Because even with the superiority they are stated to have alone, they would dominate every other faction in your headcannon scenario

Refer to the points above about how spell card rules don't invalidate hierachies so character matched up as rivals can still scale.

Still forgetting that only a few are truly considered as combat rivals that can be scaled. Someone who is a rival in anything non combatitive does not scale to attack potency in the slightest.

Even the possible argument that "if they consistently fight now, they should have consistently fought before" is completely devoid of logic considering the fact that spellcards would offer a way of resolving conflicts without any need of bloodshed. Someone fighting over a simple arguent under scr doesnt imply that they would literally fight to the death over the same thing if they werent put in place.

Spellcard rules have absolutely no relation to physical fighting and just function as their own fair way to resolve conflicts and therefore cannot be used for scaling at all.

It was a spell card battle (like any other, really). She also wasn't explicitly stated to be unable to harm her, she was just inferior. Like said above.

When the likes to Reimu who's a youkai expert can't even remotely harm an oni without durability negating hax, there is no way that aya can do the same.

The Catfish is literally a dream >Forgetting dreams are equivalent to reality

>Forgetting Tenshi summoning all those random Catfish as well

Come on man. Youre missing a lot of important information.

Suwako's ""feat"" is hilariously not a feat at all and Marisa's own feat is too vague for its own good. It always was just a supporting feat. As i said, its likely out of context so i agree with you on the first one. But how is marisas feat vague at all? Do you honestly believe completely non combatitive rivalries are less vague than a straight up statement for what she is doing?

There is also the fact that Marisa should still be comparable to Reimu due to their relationship before the Spell Card Rules and due to both of them dealing with most youkai before those rules still means that they shouldn't be, y'know, infinitely weaker than random hermits. Despite that. Reimu is completely unable to physically content with random hermits or oni and needs durability negating hax to do so.

"Absolute garbage I never said"? It's not like most of your rebuttals to your list was complaining how about people don't explictly punch onis and hermits in the face instead of just accepting that due to the fact that hermits (which aren't god tiers by any means) are part of the general power level of the verse now, characters who are considered to be really strong have no reasons to be that much weaker than those.

No. YOU are the one who made the list in the first place which dictates hermits and oni have these feats, and characters need to scale to them in order to be this level. Oni and hermits on your list are ultimately the only ones being scaled to.

I simply debunked the scaling that you proposed for each character and you came up with this

"I was gonna go over each of your points, but then I realized that 90% of your "arguments" are just "bUt doEs it AppLY to oNis aNd herMits??"

You are essentially setting up a strawman argument where no matter how much i evidence i give against the scaling you proposed being wrong. You can just use the tactic of "you are just treating oni and hermits as god tiers" as by debunking your list, i am debunking scaling towards them. This allows you to completely ignore my actual reasoning for the scaling being illogical (which you did for the most part) and just use this argument as an easy way to avoid adressing the issues i presented with the scaling. An obvious manipulative tactic and ultimately a fallacy.

Heres the truth: -Oni, hermits, vampires, sages, the current 4-As and a few others are the only ones who have solid feats and scaling to high 3-A

-Oni, vampites and hermits are consistently portrayed as being the most powerful race of youkai with nobody ever physically comparing or competing with them

-There is nothing at all stopping oni and hermits from being infintiely above most of the current High 4-C cast in power

-Some of the strongest characters dont scale and need durability negation to beat them (something many characters have to begin with)

-The scaling towards oni and hermits is completely flawed and mostly outright wrong, requires intense speculation and vague possibilities, or is straight up contradicted by the series itself.

Edit: Now. So if you give me a little time. I can actually show you the scaling I am truly presenting because so far, you have not looked into it at all which has lead to strawmanning
 
It's a fact. There is nothing stopping oni and hermits from having infinite superiority over the high 4-Cs don't scale. I just explained that and addressed the reasoning for the claim that it is illogical for them to have a major power gap above the other characters
 
Then your argument is burden of proof. They have shown to completely and physically outclass strong (mid tier) characters like reimu proving they do not scale directly. On top of that, there is no evidence of the other characters finitely scaling to begin with. Nobody i listed has ever physically competed or scaled to an oni.

The oni and hermits have feats of infinite power which the other high tiers simply dont scale to, and nothing even contradicting infinite superiority. What is so hard to get about that?
 
It would also make absolutely no sense for oni and hermits to be infinitely superior to goddesses. Reimu, Marisa, and others have beaten down some goddesses before. While Reimu isn't as strong as Kasen, she should at least be comparable.

And comparable doesn't always mean equal. For example, Marisa is comparable to Reimu, even though she can barely fight with her.
 
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