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Touhou God and Top Tier Upgrades

PsychicCipher

PsychicCipher

318
22
So, I thought that God and Top Tiers in Touhou, such as Hecatia, Yukari and the likes, have more powerful feats to their name, so I have compiled some canon feats, with links, that may upgrade their stats to higher levels.

Hecatia (Upgrade to 2-A)

- Can create an infinite number of Hells, which Hecatia deems to be "Otherworlds". It is stated to be an easy feat for her.

- Note that a single 'Hell' is deemed infinitely large.

Scales to: No one. She is confirmed multiple times to be the strongest in the entire franchise. Not even Yukari or Eirin can hold a candle.

Yukari Yakumo (Upgrade to Low 2-C, possibly 2-C)

- She states that she can fundamentally undermine reality. It is also stated here that 'Gensokyo cannot exist without the Great Barrier'...

- ...And it is confirmed here that Yukari created said barrier. Meaning that she can break it down and erase all of Gensokyo if she likes. Understandably, this would likely also mean fusing Gensokyo back to the real world. They are basically two different timelines at this point.

- Gensokyo is described to follow Brane Cosmology. This is especially reliable, being stated by geniuses like Renko. Branes should be at least 4-D or more in nature.

- Should be able to control the boundary of Red and White, the source of the beginning of 'all things'.

- Since she could control all boundaries, the above boundary should also be deemed true.

Scales to:

- Okina Matara (Another sage who helped her create Gensokyo. Okina herself stated that recreating Gensokyo is easy. Also governs the Land of The Back Door, seemingly endless in size)

- Eirin Yagokoro, Watatsuki Sisters (Confirmed to be trouble for Yukari. Also, Eirin's Klein Bottle)

- Doremy Sweet (Should be at least comparable, or possibly superior as a top-tier Youkai. Also, her dream powers can affect reality as well)

- Junko and Kishin Sagume should scale as well.

Feel free to express your thoughts.
 
no


Hecatia was never stated to be able to create anything. The quote says that there can potentially be infinite Otherworlds. But it doesn't mean that

-Hecatia alone can do that. The whole paragraph refers to Hell's society, not just Hecatia. "They" cam make infinite otherworlds, not Hecatia

-That they can make infinite worlds in a finite amount of time. To me it seems closer to a "they can make any number of world they want", not that they can make infinite worlds like that


The Yukari thing...

-I covered this so many times in the past. This is just a fancy wording for Yukari warping reality. It doesn't mean she can bust all of reality at once.

-It was specifically stated that Yukari cannot create a barrier on this scale alone. Although her nuking the barrier is legit.

-That much is true. Gensokyo is a separate space-time continuum. However, you seem to conviently forget that Gensokyo is explicitly an extremely small space-time continuum. It only englobes Gensokyo, which is a land that can easily fit within Japan. It's a pocket dimension the size of an island, basically. Destroying it is like, 6-C, certainly not Low 2-C.

-That's extremely vague. At best it means creation and EE, but it doesn't have to imply that this is on a multiversal scale. This is the same as "underminning reality" before

-Same as before.

-Okina scales to Yukari, but Okina herself has nothing. "Re-creating Gensokyo" is not in a literal sense. The quote talks about the balance between Youkai and Humans. Okina is saying that she can remake Gensokyo by creating a bunch of Youkai, thus offsetting the balance. Also her govering it doesn't mean she scales to it. Aaaand if both of those were true feats they'd be Low 2-C, not 2-C.

-Kleine bottle is cute but we don't know how Eirin interacts with it, so

-That's not literal control. All it means is that the Dream World can influence the real world. But it's certainly not a 2-C feat

tl;dr no
 
Kodai no Kami said:
If Hecatia is 2A, she could have gone up and destroy everyone in the Lunar Capital right away, this makes no sense
Click to expand...
Oh, for that. That must be from Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom. While she wants to bring down the Lunar Capital, she only wants to help Junko end the empire, not destroy the whole place. Combined with her laidback attitude, she probably just let Junko and Clownpiece do their work.
 
>Hecatia was never stated to be able to create anything. The quote says that there can potentially be infinite Otherworlds. But it doesn't mean that

The phrase after the statement of the infinite otherworlds states that those already exists and they are Hecatia's one. Obviously she governing it would be something that scale the AP. Take into consideration that we are not talking about a limited or purely physical space, we are talking about an infinite amount of worlds that contain their own space-times that were created by Hecatia.

>-Hecatia alone can do that. The whole paragraph refers to Hell's society, not just Hecatia. "They" cam make infinite otherworlds, not Hecatia

>-That they can make infinite worlds in a finite amount of time. To me it seems closer to a "they can make any number of world they want", not that they can make infinite worlds like that

I don't really see it as you say da-ze~. Yes, it talks about the Hell's society too, but the lasts paragraphs talks more about Hecatia, even the question was about Hecatia, so I don't think that the statement of the infinite worlds would just refer to the Hell inhabitants being able to create all those infinite worlds one by one (even thought this is practically impossible). Also, they being able to create otherworlds would make them low 2-C.

>-I covered this so many times in the past. This is just a fancy wording for Yukari warping reality. It doesn't mean she can bust all of reality at once.

I saw you in many discussions about this, and in everyone you just repeated yourself over something that it was already debunked, or just dropped the discussion until some other mod closed the thread. I will not say so much here, just ask you to make a solid argument to proof that what it was stated is just a fancy form to say that Yukari can warp reality (and why this is not added into her profile yet?).

Because Yukari states that she can affect more than just one otherworld like Gensokyo, such the Outside World, it was stated that she ca manipulate all existences, all of those statements + Akyuu stating that manipulate boundaries is fundamentally the ability to destroy and create new existence would justify Yukari's AP, and just refuse everything and say "hey, this is only a fancy method to say that Yukari can warp the reality" it's pure headcannon and Reduction ad absurdum. Burden of proof is on you.

>-It was specifically stated that Yukari cannot create a barrier on this scale alone. Although her nuking the barrier is legit.

When it was stated that? Also nuke the barrier would scale.

>-That much is true. Gensokyo is a separate space-time continuum. However, you seem to conviently forget that Gensokyo is explicitly an extremely small space-time continuum. It only englobes Gensokyo, which is a land that can easily fit within Japan. It's a pocket dimension the size of an island, basically. Destroying it is like, 6-C, certainly not Low 2-C.

Haaaa? Are we talking about the same Gensokyo? You know what is Gensokyo? I don't think so~. Even when Gensokyo has its own timelines, and Sakuya's spell cards prove it. What is "small" is the island/physical place in which the otherworld Gensokyo is, perhaps I have to remind that Gensokyo is a quantum world, and that a brane is 4-dimensional and possibly have infinite-sized dimensions. So how something like that can be "small"? The heck, even I think that the small Gensokyo is not the actual one, instead of the former one, the one which was also in the outside world da-ze~.

>-That's extremely vague. At best it means creation and EE, but it doesn't have to imply that this is on a multiversal scale. This is the same as "underminning reality" before

"So basically, red and white symbolize the distinction between existence and nothingness. That's why the red-white boundary means "joyous". By using red and white mutually, this border is emphasized, and the borderline represents the beginning of all things." Suuure. This is something that states that red and white symbolize the beginning of all things, basically something that is at the same scale of the power of the gods. But nah, that's all my speculations, extremely vague as you're saying.

Oh yeah, I have to remind that Yukari has a power comparable to the gods, and those precedes all of creation as we know.

>-Same as before.

At least make an argument da-ze~.

>-Okina scales to Yukari, but Okina herself has nothing. "Re-creating Gensokyo" is not in a literal sense. The quote talks about the balance between Youkai and Humans. Okina is saying that she can remake Gensokyo by creating a bunch of Youkai, thus offsetting the balance. Also her govering it doesn't mean she scales to it. Aaaand if both of those were true feats they'd be Low 2-C, not 2-C.

??? Literally, why? Do you have something to support what are you saying? And it wasn't Okina literally the creator of the Land of the Back Door?

>-Kleine bottle is cute but we don't know how Eirin interacts with it, so

Well, I don't have so much to say here, haha~.

>-That's not literal control. All it means is that the Dream World can influence the real world. But it's certainly not a 2-C feat

Literally saying that Dream World affect all of reality. Even a single dream have various worlds such the Netherworld. Dude, are you joking, right?
 
The text doesn't say shit about them already existing. "All those mysterious aspects can be considered Hecatia's "Otherworlds"." refers to otherworlds in general, because the conversation was about Otherworlds in general. It doesn't refer to the infinite ones.

Also no, governing something doesn't give AP. Unless you're shown to have complete, physical control of the place it doesn't matter.


Except that by the moment the infinite otherworlds comes up, the conversation has clearly switched to Hell in general. "However, Hell isn't limited to just oni. There are plenty of things we haven't seen yet in regards to Hell. And it would be easy to make new worlds if they wanted to. An infinite number of worlds can be made.". It talks about Hell, onis, not just Hecatia. And yes I'm aware the paragraphs ends with Hecatia, but that's just a closing statement about the paragraph in general. Also almost everyone relevant is already Low 2-C so this is moot.


You're using unrelated statements to boost Akyuu's statement there. Affecting Otherworlds is purely range, and affecting all boundaries is range + versatility on her hax. None of those help sell your idea that underminning reality somehow means all of reality at once instead of just being able to undermine parts of reality in general. Being able to potentially affect anything =/= being able to affect everything at once.


Honestly I forgot where but it doesn't really matter because the feat would be the same.


The **** are you on about. Sakuya being able to summon alternate timeline versions of herself doesn't make Gensokyo universal in size. Alternate versions of an island-sized pocket dimension are still island-sized. Also yes, Gensokyo is a 4-D construct, but the 3-D part of it is just Island sized. That's what matters here. We don't give Low 2-C on people being able to affect small pocket dimensions, even if they have space-time and therefore are 4-D. Also using a scientific definition that says possibly infinite to prove that this world clearly stated to not be infinite is infinite is dumb. Aaaand just a reminder that "Quantum World" is a nonsense. It doesn't mean anything.


That's still just symbolism. The barrier symbolizing the beginning of everything doesn't have to mean that Yukari can now just re-create the whole verse. Gods creating the world as we know it was done in a group. Individual gods can be as strong as 6-C. Being above gods is ultimately meaningless, at best Low 2-C due to scaling to Gensokyo's prominent gods like Kanako.


Maybe if you read the ******* manga and bothered to read anything more than this out of context scan you'd know. Both statements regarding re-creating Gensokyo directly follows Okina bragging about a power that would upset the balance of Gensokyo (being able to summon spring at will, and being able to create youkai at will), not physically destroying the fabric of Gensokyo.

Also no she didn't. And believe me I searched for damn scans of that back when they weren't Low 2-C.


"Literally saying that Dream World affect all of reality." except it doesn't. Marisa theorizes that dreams control reality. That's it. A vague statement that you guys decide to interpret as 2-C because **** me. Hell the page before it simply talks about how trying to mess with dreams might cause dreams to mess with us back. And then Marisa mentions nightmares as an example of that in the very scan you showed. 2-C is the most wankiest interpretation you could get out of this.
 
And I just got reminded that Marisa's whole "dreams control reality" came right after her saying that the insomnia she has will affect her lifestyle. And the statement came as a realization of that. Your 2-C feat is Marisa not sleeping well.


Congratz.
 
>The text doesn't say shit about them already existing. "All those mysterious aspects can be considered Hecatia's "Otherworlds"." refers to otherworlds in general, because the conversation was about Otherworlds in general. It doesn't refer to the infinite ones.

I didn't understand anything that you sayed. At first you say that it doesn't refer to them already existing, then you say that refers to the otherworlds in general... but it doesn't refer to the infinite ones? What? If Zun talks about the most powerful being in Hell (Hecatia) being able to create those infinite otherworlds, and after that talks about those already existing, hmmm idk, perhaps just make the cosmology 2-A at least. What you just cited talks about the reign of Hecatia over the infinite otherworlds, not the otherworlds in general as you're saying.

>Also no, governing something doesn't give AP. Unless you're shown to have complete, physical control of the place it doesn't matter.

I can agree if we are talking about some physical space with boundaries, such as a country, but when we are talking about infinite realities with its own space-time continuum what you say is completely stupid. Also, this is ironic because the main argument of Yuyuko's AP it's because she governs the Netherworld, for the next try to hide more your bias, hahahaha~.

>Except that by the moment the infinite otherworlds comes up, the conversation has clearly switched to Hell in general. "However, Hell isn't limited to just oni. There are plenty of things we haven't seen yet in regards to Hell. And it would be easy to make new worlds if they wanted to. An infinite number of worlds can be made.". It talks about Hell, onis, not just Hecatia. And yes I'm aware the paragraphs ends with Hecatia, but that's just a closing statement about the paragraph in general. Also almost everyone relevant is already Low 2-C so this is moot.

And how this debunks anything of what I'm said before da-ze~? And no, they are High 3-A with the possibility of being Low 2-C because... reasons.

>You're using unrelated statements to boost Akyuu's statement there. Affecting Otherworlds is purely range, and affecting all boundaries is range + versatility on her hax. None of those help sell your idea that underminning reality somehow means all of reality at once instead of just being able to undermine parts of reality in general. Being able to potentially affect anything =/= being able to affect everything at once.

At this point, I don't know if you're trying to refute something, or just denying to deny. But anyway, surprise mr. Range, affecting otherworlds via RW counts as AP+range, not just range, even adding that the boundaries marked the beginning of reality. You are just ignoring the proof because you keep with your obstinacy to don't accept that Yukari is far higher to the level you put her, and even because you don't wanna realize that you do a really bad job analyzing any Touhou character. In any case, you have a proof to say that Akyuu's statement refers to "undermine parts of reality"? I don't think so~, because it doesn't exist~.

"The ability to manipulate boundaries is a terrifying ability capable of fundamentally undermining reality."

"As you know, everything is built upon the existence of boundaries."

"Thus, the ability to manipulate boundaries is an ability of logical creation and destruction."

I literally show you all the statements that shows that Yukari can affect everything, manipulate all existences, and you just disappointed me with your arguments. You only prove to be incapable of even putting up a solid proof that determines that what I'm saying is incorrect, just by guiding yourself by your disbelief da-ze~. As I told you, the burden of proof is on you, you must have to prove me that Yukari is unable to affect all of reality, debunk the statements, and refute what the context, the statements, and the common sense just says. Hahaha~.

>Honestly I forgot where but it doesn't really matter because the feat would be the same.

Then your argument was invalid from the beginning. Excellent job!

>The **** are you on about. Sakuya being able to summon alternate timeline versions of herself doesn't make Gensokyo universal in size. Alternate versions of an island-sized pocket dimension are still island-sized. Also yes, Gensokyo is a 4-D construct, but the 3-D part of it is just Island sized. That's what matters here. We don't give Low 2-C on people being able to affect small pocket dimensions, even if they have space-time and therefore are 4-D. Also using a scientific definition that says possibly infinite to prove that this world clearly stated to not be infinite is infinite is dumb. Aaaand just a reminder that "Quantum World" is a nonsense. It doesn't mean anything.

You... you are just... you just only buried yourself in the sorrow of others more than I could imagine... da-ze~.

You know what the ability is literally saying right? Did you even opened the link?

"Another Sakuya will appear right in front of the actual Sakuya. If you can input the buttons before she splits bodies, the two bodies will move independently. The reason behind this? Parallel universes, etc, etc."

As I sayed before, I don't know if you are just denying to deny, or you genuinely belief what are you saying. And answer my question, they are talknig about the new Gensokyo? Or they are in reality talking about the old Gensokyo? The "uhh Sakuya summons herself from a pocket dimension" is pure bullshit since those aren't pocket dimension, are stated clearly as parallel universes. Don't try to rummage over a clear statement like that, just concede and that's all da-ze~. When it was stated that Gensokyo is ot infinite? Do you have any scan to prove it? Even as I know, a brane world has a universal size or something like that, how Gensokyo would be small even if we consider all what I showed?

>That's still just symbolism. The barrier symbolizing the beginning of everything doesn't have to mean that Yukari can now just re-create the whole verse. Gods creating the world as we know it was done in a group. Individual gods can be as strong as 6-C. Being above gods is ultimately meaningless, at best Low 2-C due to scaling to Gensokyo's prominent gods like Kanako.

Explain why this would just be symbolism. And we are talking about the same gods right? You know that gods predates creation/existence and was before everyone in a primal chaos in which everything was mixed, right? How something like this can be just 6-C? And yeah, with this I'm saying that I disagree with your actual tiering with the gods, hehe~. At least, those who are 6-C would be their physical avatars, not the real gods. I can believe you if we are just talking about one universe, but no, we are talking about a whole multiverse, even the gods exists throughout it and can manifest everywhere they want, what you have to say about it?

>Maybe if you read the ******* manga and bothered to read anything more than this out of context scan you'd know. Both statements regarding re-creating Gensokyo directly follows Okina bragging about a power that would upset the balance of Gensokyo (being able to summon spring at will, and being able to create youkai at will), not physically destroying the fabric of Gensokyo.

>Literally says "I could recreate Gensokyo from the ground up"

>She just say "hey, even I can create new youkai with my powers"

>Nothing there implies what are you saying

>Even if I follow your logic, she bragging about her power doesn't make invalid those statements, or makes them follow the logic you just say

...Sorry dude, but as I see, you deserve this.

>Also no she didn't. And believe me I searched for damn scans of that back when they weren't Low 2-C.

Hmmmmmm I don't know. If she lives there and that place is basically something that follows her power of creating back doors, and also, she is the governor of that realm, I think that it's common sense that she was the creator of that world da-ze~.

>"Literally saying that Dream World affect all of reality." except it doesn't. Marisa theorizes that dreams control reality. That's it. A vague statement that you guys decide to interpret as 2-C because **** me. Hell the page before it simply talks about how trying to mess with dreams might cause dreams to mess with us back. And then Marisa mentions nightmares as an example of that in the very scan you showed. 2-C is the most wankiest interpretation you could get out of this.

Maybe and if you weren't so stubborn you would know that in reality the Dream World already affected the real world several times, and Marisa statement it's just one of many things that supports it. What are you saying supports what I'm saying da-ze~, that the Dream World has a power over reality. Even so, your argument doesn't debunks anything of what I say.

>And I just got reminded that Marisa's whole "dreams control reality" came right after her saying that the insomnia she has will affect her lifestyle. And the statement came as a realization of that. Your 2-C feat is Marisa not sleeping well.

And how does it debunks anything of what I said?
 
I think doremy 2C feats should be recreating netherworld,land of backdoor in the dream world, she also can create,control and erase several dream world. But im not sure if that 2C or not.also yukari wouldn't scale to this feats

So for now i agree with saikou
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
-Okina scales to Yukari, but Okina herself has nothing. "Re-creating Gensokyo" is not in a literal sense. The quote talks about the balance between Youkai and Humans. Okina is saying that she can remake Gensokyo by creating a bunch of Youkai, thus offsetting the balance. Also her govering it doesn't mean she scales to it. Aaaand if both of those were true feats they'd be Low 2-C, not 2-C.
Click to expand...
I remember another story like that...

Except it involved the Destruction of literally everything and Yukari being 2 stonk for dreams.

And a Sake mad Yokai recreated Gensokyo by recreating all the Yokai...
 
I will share my perspective from debate between @Saik and @Maguzz.

@Saik's logic seems more technical than @Maguzz but @Maguzz doesn't understand most of @Saik's points which makes @Maguzz arguments insignificant to some extent.

@Maguzz's latest reply: your first and second arguments talks about creation of Otherworlds which means talking about oni resides in these Hells (not just Hecatia), the real question is does it implying all oni can create infinite space-time continuums at once and Hecatia just govern everything they created because "all otherworlds are mine" therefore she can create infinite Hells just because she govern them? Governing and Creating is completely different things, also creating pocket dimensions doesn't mean it's infinite space. I still don't see Gensokyo being larger than what actually it was then how about all kinds of Hell size being similar logic? When it never explicitly stated All Hell is Infinite space - different Hell is same as Hell therefore their space is same as Hell, except it only explicitly stated one Hell is infinite while the other doesn't.

your 3rd argument is just rejected @Saik's idea, but @Maguzz didn't place a refute.

your 4th argument talks about Yukari's ability. I never always agree that "no limit" reality warping idea is safe to assumed, though it's just vague part of Perfect Memento. That's just perspective from Hieda no Akyuu and additional assumptions coming from her being exaggerated too much so that people took their ability as literal no limit which is bandwagon fallacy.

your 5th argument is about Sakuya, I've heard a lot debates about this issue in other sites, seems a lot of people are assuming with their own interpretation of Sakuya's ability, first it's compressed space-time to create paradox, second interpreted as different timelines, and now it's parallel worlds, like wtf?! Even Touhou doesn't agree with each other. And I don't know what to think so I facepalmed.

your 6th argument is about creation and destruction and stuff, as for symbolism, from my research, Yukari's ability is just based on Yin and Yang in real life concept, which obviously made her ability as number one ally of a shintoism (Reimu) also being part of creating barrier along with Goddess of Witch/Hell (Hecatia). So Western Mythology just officially more powerful than Eastern Mythology? ZUN just literally rekt the pride of Gensokyo.

Okay, okay, that's a little derail, this argument about AP or Range of Yukari's ability the issue is same problem as 3rd and 4th arguments.

your 7th argument is just @Maguzz's logic didn't just like @Saik's logic. But @Maguzz needed to be more technical to refute @Saik's points, not just disagreeing alone.

your 8th argument same as my logic in 1st and 2nd arguments' issues.

your 9th argument talks about reality and dream, but this concept is just weakening the boundary of reality and dream, so technically they aren't the same since creation of reality and dream is not the same thing. If they're the same thing, then by your logic being similar to Minecraft Player is 2-A via lower dream (also contains Snapshot Infinity), and Low 1-C via higher dream.
 
Davidgumazon said:
I will share my perspective from debate between @Saik and @Maguzz.
@Saik's logic seems more technical than @Maguzz but @Maguzz doesn't understand most of @Saik's points which makes @Maguzz arguments insignificant to some extent.

@Maguzz's latest reply: the first and second arguments talks about creation of Otherworlds which means talking about oni resides in these Hells (not just Hecatia), the real question is does it implying all oni can create infinite space-time continuums at once and Hecatia just govern everything they created because "all otherworlds are mine" therefore she can create infinite Hells just because she govern them? Governing and Creating is completely different things, also creating pocket dimensions doesn't mean it's infinite space. I still don't see Gensokyo being larger than what actually it was then how about all kinds of Hell size being similar logic? When it never explicitly stated All Hell is Infinite space - different Hell is same as Hell therefore their space is same as Hell, except it only explicitly stated one Hell is infinite while the other doesn't.

3rd argument is just rejected @Saik's idea, but @Maguzz didn't place a refute.

4th argument talks about Yukari's ability. I never always agree that "no limit" reality warping idea is safe to assumed, though it's just vague part of Perfect Memento. That's just perspective from Hieda no Akyuu and additional assumptions coming from her being exaggerated too much so that people took their ability as literal no limit which is bandwagon fallacy.

5th argument is about Sakuya, I've heard a lot debates about this issue in other sites, seems a lot of people are assuming with their own interpretation of Sakuya's ability, first it's compressed space-time to create paradox, second interpreted as different timelines, and now it's parallel worlds, like wtf?! Even Touhou doesn't agree with each other. And I don't know what to think so I facepalmed.

6th argument is about creation and destruction and stuff, as for symbolism, from my research, Yukari's ability is just based on Yin and Yang in real life concept, which obviously made her ability as number one ally of a shintoism (Reimu) also being part of creating barrier along with Goddess of Witch/Hell (Hecatia). So Western Mythology just officially more powerful than Eastern Mythology? ZUN just literally rekt the pride of Gensokyo.

Okay, okay, that's a little derail, this argument about AP or Range of Yukari's ability the issue is same problem as 3rd and 4th arguments.

7th argument is just @Maguzz's logic didn't just like @Saik's logic. But @Maguzz needed to be more technical to refute @Saik's points, not just disagreeing alone.

8th argument same as my logic in 1st and 2nd arguments' issues.

9th argument talks about reality and dream, but this concept is just weakening the boundary of reality and dream, so technically they aren't the same since creation of reality and dream is not the same thing. If they're the same thing, then by your logic being similar to Minecraft Player is 2-A via lower dream (also contains Snapshot Infinity), and Low 1-C via higher dream.
Click to expand...
...???
 
Well, I gave up on this a long time ago, don't care if it is accepted or not. It's up to someone to finish this, but not me.
 
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