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About Touhou's Cosmology, and 2-C Feats

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No, the fact that you added low 2-C is from "different flow of time or slower flow of time", where we no longer use those to prove it is space-time continuum, hence I am asking how is this low 2-C?
 
Because all the scans implies (at highest) high 3-A from the infinite size hell, and the rest, I am more of confused how it is low 2-C.
 
Literally why would we assume that a universal space doesn't have a flow of time? The fact that it has an altered/different flow of time is direct proof that time exists in some fashion there.

The very opening of the universe page says "The Universe is all of space and time and their contents, including planets, stars, galaxies, all forms of matter and energy.".
 
No, it is not. We have explicit rules that having direct different flow of time does not indicate the existence of other space-time continuum. So again, from where is low 2-C coming? I see the potential high 3-A for hell, 3-A for other realm.
 
Dread.

The Netherworld:
-Is infinite.
-Has a flow of time.

This is indisputably low 2-C. We have never not treated this as low 2-C. The fact that you're saying that Hell is infinitely larger than a place stated to be larger than Hell shows that you do not know what you're talking about.

ImmortalDread said:
Is there any cosmology page to read it? I am curious right now.
Click to expand...
Not an up-to-date one, no. The one we have still claims Hell is planet sized (which has already been heavily disproven).
 
No, it is not. Because every universe is assumed to have an obvious time axis, this is not even our discussion. The mere fact is, in all the thread, I don't see a single space-time continuum tiering evidence.

Even the fact that you brought this scans
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Then there's the Netherworld, a place which was it's own Otherworld (as Otherworlds are any realm outside the Earth and Moon) and is infinite in size. Otherworlds are stated to be other dimensions, and are repeatedly demonstrated to have their own space-times, meaning an infinitely sized one such as this should be low 2-C. Supporting this to a minor extent is the notion that physics act differently in the Netherworld, as demonstrated by how sound travels more slowly there.
Click to expand...
Not a single of them were referring to space-time continuum, rather realms having different flow of time (one does not pass at all, other slower for eternity)

So again, in which evidence are you relying on low 2-C feat?
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Not an up-to-date one, no. The one we have still claims Hell is planet sized (which has already been heavily disproven).
Click to expand...
Are you planning on updating it? Because I don't want to read outdated pages and use the wrong false premise as my argument.
 
ImmortalDread said:
No, it is not. Because every universe is assumed to have an obvious time axis, this is not even our discussion. The mere fact is, in all the thread, I don't see a single space-time continuum tiering evidence.
Click to expand...
"It has a time axis but no it doesn't"????? This is just derailing at this point. I don't even know what the hell you're arguing for because all of it is so contradictory. The fact is, universal space + time is low 2-C, there isn't a verse on the wiki that doesn't abide by that logic. Can you quote the wiki standards you're referring to, please?

ImmortalDread said:
Are you planning on updating it? Because I don't want to read outdated pages and use the wrong false premise as my argument.
Click to expand...
Eventually, yes. But regardless of when that happens, don't bother with outdated and false information.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
"It has a time axis but no it doesn't"????? This is just derailing at this point. I don't even know what the hell you're arguing for because all of it is so contradictory. The fact is, universal space + time is low 2-C, there isn't a verse on the wiki that doesn't abide by that logic. Can you quote the wiki standards you're referring to, please?
Click to expand...
No it is not. I am arguing that the universe in this cosmology has been shown to maximum high 3-A, and others 3-As with other type of flow of time. We have explicit rules to not upgrade any universe directly to low 2-C because they got different flow of time.

Also, here is the quote:
  • It should be noted that variations in the flow of time, such as faster or slower rates, do not necessarily indicate the existence of separate universes or space-time continuums. This phenomenon can occur within a single universe or pocket dimension, and therefore does not serve as sufficient evidence for the existence of multiple universes or space-time continuums.
Click to expand...
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Eventually, yes. But regardless of when that happens, don't bother with outdated and false information.
Click to expand...
Obviously, I won't bother. I would likely rely on updated and correct information since I trust you with those.
 
I think dread is contending how qe assume hell is a different spacetime for simply having different flow of time because that one has been axed as a proof for other dimension to be low 2-C thus he thinks merging 2 realm under the same spacetime would just be high 3-A since hell has infinite space but it being a different spacetime needs to be argued upon

I don't really know much about hell or heaven in gensokyo so i cannot comment further
 
ImmortalDread said:
No it is not. I am arguing that the universe in this cosmology has been shown to maximum high 3-A, and others 3-As with other type of flow of time. We have explicit rules to not upgrade any universe directly to low 2-C because they got different flow of time.

Also, here is the quote:
Click to expand...
Ohhhhh my god you are completely misunderstanding this quote. It's meant to show that differing flows of time alone do not qualify as different universes. However, this does not imply that having a different flow of time is an anti-feat for separate universes. The fact remains that the Netherworld is a different dimension from the Outside World that has always existed separately spatially and temporally, is infinite in size, and is therefore a universe. You would have to prove that the Netherworld is spatiotemporally conterminous with the Outside World for it not to be a universe (of which there is no evidence).
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
I think dread is contending how qe assume hell is a different spacetime for simply having different flow of time because that one has been axed as a proof for other dimension to be low 2-C thus he thinks merging 2 realm under the same spacetime would just be high 3-A.

I don't really know much about hell or heaven in gensokyo so i cannot comment further
Click to expand...
Otherworlds are separate dimensions that do not occupy the same space-time; One of the scans is explicitly about how abilities reliant on the space-time of one world (Gensokyo) do not work in Otherworlds (like Senkai, for example), so they functionally cannot occupy the same space-time. If the flow of time stuff is irrelevant, that's fine, but it isn't a debunk.

Anyways, I have to go to work now.
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
I think dread is contending how qe assume hell is a different spacetime for simply having different flow of time because that one has been axed as a proof for other dimension to be low 2-C thus he thinks merging 2 realm under the same spacetime would just be high 3-A since hell has infinite space but it being a different spacetime needs to be argued upon
Click to expand...
Exactly.
TheGreatJedi13 said:
I don't really know much about hell or heaven in gensokyo so i cannot comment further
Click to expand...
The hell is being described constantly as infinite vast space. So I think it only grants high 3-A, the rest of evidences they nowhere indicate any evidence of space-time continuum.

So I am literally asking myself, It's either there is a content that I don't know or the cosmology that has not posted yet, then I would like to read the page, to see how she/ or people conclude this tiering.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Ohhhhh my god you are completely misunderstanding this quote. It's meant to show that differing flows of time alone do not qualify as different universes. However, this does not imply that having a different flow of time is an anti-feat for separate universes. The fact remains that the Netherworld is a different dimension from the Outside World that has always existed separately spatially and temporally, is infinite in size, and is therefore a universe. You would have to prove that the Netherworld is spatiotemporally conterminous with the Outside World for it not to be a universe (of which there is no evidence).
Click to expand...
Exactly, this is my point, as far as I can say, there is no other evidence you used for low 2-C except the flow of time, hence the quote (which in matter of fact, I created it with DT) implies you can't use it as low 2-C feat.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Otherworlds are separate dimensions that do not occupy the same space-time; One of the scans is explicitly about how abilities reliant on the space-time of one world (Gensokyo) do not work in Otherworlds (like Senkai, for example), so they functionally cannot occupy the same space-time. If the flow of time stuff is irrelevant, that's fine, but it isn't a debunk.
Click to expand...
I know you would bring this scan, but actually this is the rules:
  • Being "Different Worlds, Realms, or Dimensions" requires more elaborate context and even "Dreams, Imaginations and Ideas becoming reality" is not enough to say the "Worlds" are entire universes. "Becoming Reality" often simply refers more to "Becoming a piece of reality" as opposed to each and every Dream becoming an "Entire Reality".
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Anyways, I have to go to work now.
Click to expand...
No problem's bestie ❤️
 
Well the thing about the ball isn't really explained as to why it doesn't work on another dimension. (Infinity gauntlet lmaoo) so although it might be a supporting evidence it is weak on its own.

Anyway boundary between worlds seems sufficient imo to say they are separate spacetimes so im not really against 2-C
 
You mean the dimensional barrier that separate them? Because there is also rule for that.
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
I think dread is contending how qe assume hell is a different spacetime for simply having different flow of time because that one has been axed as a proof for other dimension to be low 2-C thus he thinks merging 2 realm under the same spacetime would just be high 3-A since hell has infinite space but it being a different spacetime needs to be argued upon
Click to expand...
We assume that spaces with different flow of time are different space times from each other actually.
 
I feel like people should remember that the 3-dimensional spatial separation is the main part of determining that they're separate space-times i.e. physical movement between them should be impossible, or use magical means etc.

After that, proving they have their own flows of time and a significant size should be good enough. It helps if they're separate in a higher-dimensional expanse.
 
Planck69 said:
I feel like people should remember that the 3-dimensional spatial separation is the main part of determining that they're separate space-times i.e. physical movement between them should be impossible, or use magical means etc.

After that, proving they have their own flows of time and a significant size should be good enough. It helps if they're separate in a higher-dimensional expanse.
Click to expand...
Iirc in Touhou is stated that if you manipulate space, you manipulate time too and viceversa. Meaning that different time = different space.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Well... the profile was made 2-C prior to the update to the universe page. If you want to downgrade it, be my guest, I don't care of the verse.
Click to expand...
Not the point and talking about downgrading it is derailing.

There is more context to some that are accepted and that statement you just quoted earlier. Hence why i said that alone the different flow of time is a weak supporting evidence but with the whole dimensional barrier and how travel isn't possible until reimu accidentally affected the barrier and boundary between worlds statement i don't see anything wrong.

It helps to pay attention to follow up answers and replies rather than taking one reply/statement and taking it out of context like a bible verse
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Let me just ask this: Is an infinitely sized space with a flow of time low 2-C?
Click to expand...
We always assume every universe has flow of time, this is not even needed to be proven, according to you, every universe being mentioned in any fiction is considered low 2-C, skipping the existence of 3-A.

And no, to the hell instance, this is blatant high 3-A. I thought you are now at work, focus there, rather giving me short answers.
 
ImmortalDread said:
We always assume every universe has flow of time, this is not even needed to be proven, according to you, every universe being mentioned in any fiction is considered low 2-C, skipping the existence of 3-A.

And no, to the hell instance, this is blatant high 3-A. I thought you are now at work, focus there, rather giving me short answers.
Click to expand...
So a universe is low 2-C? So in that case, you agree that Hell/The Netherworld is low 2-C?
 
ImmortalDread said:
We always assume every universe has flow of time, this is not even needed to be proven, according to you, every universe being mentioned in any fiction is considered low 2-C, skipping the existence of 3-A.

And no, to the hell instance, this is blatant high 3-A. I thought you are now at work, focus there, rather giving me short answers.
Click to expand...
Planck69 said:
I feel like people should remember that the 3-dimensional spatial separation is the main part of determining that they're separate space-times i.e. physical movement between them should be impossible, or use magical means etc.

After that, proving they have their own flows of time and a significant size should be good enough. It helps if they're separate in a higher-dimensional expanse.
Click to expand...
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
So a universe is low 2-C? So in that case, you agree that Hell/The Netherworld is low 2-C?
Click to expand...
As per your line of reasoning, it appears that every universe within every work of fiction ought to possess a 2-C classification, bypassing the 3-A classification altogether. However, I must clarify that this is not a stance that I have taken.
 
Planck69 said:
I feel like people should remember that the 3-dimensional spatial separation is the main part of determining that they're separate space-times i.e. physical movement between them should be impossible, or use magical means etc.
Click to expand...
Which I am aware, but nothing here even refers to this. The only thing I see that there is dimensional barrier, hence the traveling through them is possible but nothing indicates that there are 2-C cosmology.
 
ImmortalDread said:
Which I am aware, but nothing here even refers to this. The only thing I see that there is dimensional barrier, hence the traveling through them is possible but nothing indicates that there are 2-C cosmology.
Click to expand...
StrymULTRA said:
Iirc in Touhou is stated that if you manipulate space, you manipulate time too and viceversa. Meaning that different time = different space.
Click to expand...
The thing is here btw

 
ImmortalDread said:
which in matter of fact, I created it with DT
Click to expand...
I was the source of that quote, agnaa and I argued for it, you only edited it to be more fitting, don't take take credits and if you want to give credits, do it properly
StrymULTRA said:
We assume that spaces with different flow of time are different space times from each other actually.
Click to expand...
thank you, I have been compiling a list of verse that should lose their ratings


Anyway to clear up the misunderstanding, a universe no matter what will be a low 2-C structure, but the destruction, creation or merging of it can be from 3-A to low 2-C, depending on the size, and whether it is a contained space-time or if it was destroyed/created/merged across all of time.

That said, the OP need to prove that they are spatially separate or they were merged across all of time or something similar. That is all
 
PrinceofPein said:
I was the source of that quote, agnaa and I argued for it, you only edited it to be more fitting, don't take take credits and if you want to give credits, do it properly

thank you, I have been compiling a list of verse that should lose their ratings


Anyway to clear up the misunderstanding, a universe no matter what will be a low 2-C structure, but the destruction, creation or merging of it can be from 3-A to low 2-C, depending on the size, and whether it is a contained space-time or if it was destroyed/created/merged across all of time.

That said, the OP need to prove that they are spatially separate or they were merged across all of time or something similar. That is all
Click to expand...
I can prove the spatial separation later (and give scans), but the only reason people can get to and from the Netherworld is because the barrier was destroyed. This is reflected in how phantoms started entering Gensokyo en masse once the barrier was broken, showing that they couldn't just physically leave beforehand. Not to mention, I thought we assumed universes were spatially separate unless otherwise proven?
 
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