About Touhou's Cosmology, and 2-C Feats

[ImmortalDread]

Not to mention, I thought we assumed universes were spatially separate unless otherwise proven?

No we don't assume, what?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

No we don't assume, what?

Why would we assume two things described as different universes share the same 3D space? It's an illogical assumption without evidence.

 

[PrinceofPein]

this is the 3rd time I say this smh.

read the quote, it does imply space and time is inseparable, but that is true for any universe, if I turn back the time, I will undo all changes done to space for the moment, so it does not mean much

I can prove the spatial separation later (and give scans), but the only reason people can get to and from the Netherworld is because the barrier was destroyed. This is reflected in how phantoms started entering Gensokyo en masse once the barrier was broken, showing that they couldn't just physically leave beforehand. Not to mention, I thought we assumed universes were spatially separate unless otherwise proven?

Yes we do assume they are, provided they are called "different universes" or something similar, but in this case I think it is proven otherwise
The to and fro from the netherworld was it done through teleportation or a portal or something similar? cause if it is not done that way and it is done physically, then that is a big anti-feat that they are not separate.

 

[StrymULTRA]

thank you, I have been compiling a list of verse that should lose their ratings

Will this affect Dragon Ball btw?

 

[ImmortalDread]

It will effect her favorite verse fire force

 

[ImmortalDread]

Yes we do assume they are, provided they are called "different universes" or something similar, but in this case I think it is proven otherwise
The to and fro from the netherworld was it done through teleportation or a portal or something similar? cause if it is not done that way and it is done physically, then that is a big anti-feat that they are not seseparate.

It is done physically, people can move freely between them.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

read the quote, it does imply space and time is inseparable, but that is true for any universe, if I turn back the time, I will undo all changes done to space for the moment, so it does not mean much

Yes we do assume they are, provided they are called "different universes" or something similar, but in this case I think it is proven otherwise
The to and fro from the netherworld was it done through teleportation or a portal or something similar? cause if it is not done that way and it is done physically, then that is a big anti-feat that they are not separate.

Literally the entire reason people can come and go so easily is because the barrier was destroyed and was never fixed. Phantoms couldn't just leave beforehand, they only started entering Gensokyo after the barrier was destroyed.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Tbh losing 2-C Dragon Ball ain't that bad.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It is done physically, people can move freely between them.

Because the barrier preventing that movement was destroyed. If I tear down a brick wall and then walk over it, did the walk never exist? Did I phase through the wall? Think about this for a moment.

 

[ImmortalDread]

This does not prove any separation. We even have a rules for this type of dimensional barrier.

 

[Shiroiyo]

In the OP there is literally a scan saying that Otherworlds are separate dimensions, there is a barrier preventing things from physically moving between worlds, but for some reason this is all just high 3-A.

VSB moment

 

[PrinceofPein]

Will this affect Dragon Ball btw?

I do not know, I have not gotten to D yet

Literally the entire reason people can come and go so easily is because the barrier was destroyed and was never fixed. Phantoms couldn't just leave beforehand, they only started entering Gensokyo after the barrier was destroyed.

In fiction there are cases where a wall or some non-physical analog separates two realms. However, while such a barrier might serve to separate the realms within the cosmology of said fiction, note that the spaces are not necessarily separate universes by our standards. That is because, while the wall may make it difficult in practice, one could in theory still move from one realm to the other with just regular three dimensional movement. That means that the realms are still part of one common three dimensional space, which by our standards constitutes only one universe.

Note that this criteria of seperation is only an argument against two realms being separate universes, if a feat of travel between the realms by regular 3D means occurs or it is otherwise known for certain that they are not separated in the above sense. If the realms fulfill the requirements laid out in the prior section and no such travel occurs, then the realms can be considered proper separate universes even if the means by which they are separated is not explored.

A wall or barrier does not mean much, if physical travel can occur based on the standard.
A different universe is supposed to be a separate house on another street, but for those where it is just a wall separating them it can be likened to it being different rooms within the same house.
Unless you can prove that this is a verse mechanics, I do not see how they are separate in this case

 

[ImmortalDread]

And somehow without this barrier, they could move physically freely between them, proves further that it is not an identical dimensional separation.

 

[Shmooply]

And somehow without this barrier, they could move physically freely between them, proves further that it is not an identical dimensional separation.

Literally where is this stated or shown?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

And somehow without this barrier, they could move physically freely between them, proves further that it is not an identical dimensional separation.

Because the barrier merged them together. Literally the whole point of this thread is that Gensokyo and the Netherworld share the same space after the barrier's destruction.

I do not know, I have not gotten to D yet


A wall or barrier does not mean much, if physical travel can occur based on the standard.
A different universe is supposed to be a separate house on another street, but for those where it is just a wall separating them it can be likened to it being different rooms within the same house.
Unless you can prove that this is a verse mechanics, I do not see how they are separate in this case

Physical travel CAN'T occur. That's the whole reason phantoms only started entering Gensokyo AFTER the barrier was destroyed. If they could go to Gensokyo through physical movement alone pre-PCB, then them leaving the Netherworld so often wouldn't be a major issue; It only became a problem after the barrier was destroyed.

Using the house analogy, this is less about two rooms in the same house and more like two houses combined into one big house because someone removed the street separating them.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Literally where is this stated or shown?

Yeah actually, where the **** did Dread get this from?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Literally where is this stated or shown?

Literally in the scan, there is no portal or teleporation, it's been stated to move freely, what else would be?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Literally in the scan, there is no portal or teleporation, it's been stated to move freely, what else would be?

Which scan?

 

[Shmooply]

Literally in the scan, there is no portal or teleporation, it's been stated to move freely, what else would be?

Like a bajillion scans
Check
None of them mention it

You sure you got the right thread, Dread?

 

[Planck69]

Fundamentally, it comes down to this;

Is the reason physical movement was impossible solely because of a barrier and not that you could keep moving in one direction and never actually reach the Netherworld? Like, a dimensional barrier in and of itself isn't a guarantee if it just acts like a physical wall between them.

For example, The Domain of Death in God of War acts as a "separating barrier" and a dimensional barrier was mentioned once for the real world and Underworld, but the difference here is that there's information and scans that they lie completely outside the mortal universe and that only portals and spatial tears allow for movement between them at all.

Do we have something like that here?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Lol, it is even described as bridge/border, now I am questioning if those worlds are actually universe-sized.

And yes, "people can come as they please"

 

[Shmooply]

dread literally what scan just ******* show i-

 

[ImmortalDread]

It's in OP. The evidence used for "barrier between worlds".

 

[Shmooply]

It's in OP. The evidence used for "barrier between worlds".

This one?

Where is it even remotely stated that it's like a bridge?

 

[ImmortalDread]

I said bridge or border. And either way, there is literally no evidence of any mechanics.

You just actually nitpicking what I am saying and not even sending any evidence for low 2-C to begin with.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Lol, it is even described as bridge/border, now I am questioning if those worlds are actually universe-sized.

And yes, "people can come as they please"

Dang are we sure that this is not a DT alt?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Do you guys stop derailing or this some of tactic to avoid the current topic?

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

I'll just chime in to say that I agree with the revisions, and that the word "border" takes on a much less literal and more important definition within Touhou's lore.

Pointing out a boundary separates the two realms only strengthens the argument that the two are spatially separate, at least in my opinion.

 

[ImmortalDread]

And pointing out that there is anti-feat for this since not a single verse mechanics allow them to travel through those two realms and actually people can move as they please.

Did yall read the new standards that Pain created with DT?

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

Also unless I'm mistaken, trying to reach the edge or end of Gensokyo causes one to loop back around, so the boundary between the two realms couldn't have been a physical one. They are two separate spaces for sure, and by Touhou's lore, they must have a separate space-time from one another as a result.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

There is a boundary between worlds that restricts travel between them. Of note is the fact that boundaries are more metaphysical concepts than physical walls (like the boundary between Gensokyo and the Outside world being a conceptual line between reality and fantasy, in addition to Donnelly's point above). The same is true of all borders.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

This looks alright.

 

[AdamHkureiJanitor]

If this helps, there is also that statement about Reimu's spell card Divine Spirit "Dream Seal -Blink-"

Reimu says that "you can't normally see the boundary that this barrier encloses, so it looks like there's countless copies of the enemy." Is it like a small world that loops around on itself? Or maybe it's something like two mirrors facing each other?

 

[Quantu]

I agree with OP.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, we do have more than enough staff approval, but I can provide some more detailed explanations after work if it helps any. Note that I won't argue indefinitely over this, I just want to at least try to set the record straight.

 

[PrinceofPein]

In fiction there are cases where a wall or some non-physical analog separates two realms. However, while such a barrier might serve to separate the realms within the cosmology of said fiction, note that the spaces are not necessarily separate universes by our standards. That is because, while the wall may make it difficult in practice, one could in theory still move from one realm to the other with just regular three dimensional movement. That means that the realms are still part of one common three dimensional space, which by our standards constitutes only one universe.

To explain this, if the only reason that movement is not possible between two worlds or spaces is a barrier, then those universes are not separate by our standard.
Also is there any case of them been said to be separate space-times?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

To explain this, if the only reason that movement is not possible between two worlds or spaces is a barrier, then those universes are not separate by our standard.
Also is there any case of them been said to be separate space-times?

The barrier in this case is literally a wall that is directly stated to be able to be flown over; However, it still prevents people from crossing, so it's not a matter of 3D space (not to mention your interpretation contradicts how borders work in Touhou). Furthermore, characters with dimensional travel like Reimu still needed to break the barrier in order to access the Netherworld, so it prevents conventional space-time hopping as well as 3D movement. That alone should qualify.

 

[Planck69]

The barrier in this case is literally a wall that is directly stated to be able to be flown over; However, it still prevents people from crossing, so it's not a matter of 3D space (not to mention your interpretation contradicts how borders work in Touhou). Furthermore, characters with dimensional travel like Reimu still needed to break the barrier in order to access the Netherworld, so it prevents conventional space-time hopping as well as 3D movement. That alone should qualify.

So to be clear, of the border just disappeared and I was in front of it, I wouldn't reach the Netherworld if I kept walking forward?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So to be clear, of the border just disappeared and I was in front of it, I wouldn't reach the Netherworld if I kept walking forward?

That depends on which border. The physical "wall" separating the two? No. The conceptual "border" distinguishing them as the land of the living and the land of the dead? Yeah.

 

[Planck69]

Alright then.