Four Witches Technique (Dragon Ball)

[Nullflowerblush]

Part 1: The Basics​

Dragon Ball: Adventure Special describes the Four Witches Technique as generating attacks "more than twice as powerful as normal", and Daizenshuu 2's "Special Attacks" and Super Exciting Guide: Character Volume's "Character Collection" describe the technique as "surpassing human limits" and "[transcending] the scope of martial arts".

Part 2: Counterarguments​

1. Adventure Special could simply be describing how Tien can attack with twice the number of fists.
2. Super Exciting Guide: Character Volume's "Battle Technique File" describes the Four Witches Technique as "[multiplying his punches] several times over", implying only the number of attacks he can unleash is increased, rather than the effectiveness or the damage of the attacks themselves.

Part 3: Rebuttals​

1. Adventure Special uses the term 攻撃力, which translates into "attack power" or "offensive power".
2. The number of attacks and the power of the attacks can be multiplied simultaneously, obviously. Neither statement cancel out.
3. As detailed by Adventure Special, when Tien unleashes the Four Witches Technique, he is surrounded by the aura that indicates the gathering and amplification of strength.
   1. Yes, concentrating Ki into a singular point increases its potency.
4. Tien only deploys the Four Witches Technique because he recognizes he is outmatched by Goku and desires to quickly finish the battle.

Part 4: Results​

• Using the Four Witches Technique, Tien gathers all of his strength and grows more than twice as powerful. >59.2 Exatons
  • Goku can contend with and even defeat the Four Witches Technique.
  • Although initially challenged, Old King Piccolo effortlessly dominated Goku, nullifying the Kamehameha with less than half strength.
• With his full power, Old King Piccolo's Makosen delivers a "killing blow" upon Goku. >118.4 Exatons

None of the ratings change, but the statistics do.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

You really like multipliers, don't you?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

You really like multipliers, don't you?

To be fair, this one's pretty blatant and it amazes me it was overlooked for all these years.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Don't Tien and Goku both have the same PL of 180?

 

[Sus]

Don't Tien and Goku both have the same PL of 180?

base forms, yes
PL are not absolute, goku can be more skilled

anyways i agree
now do the ultra divine water

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

base forms, yes
PL are not absolute, goku can be more skilled

OP would make Kid Goku x2 stronger than Tien's base power?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Don't Tien and Goku both have the same PL of 180?

Power Levels detailed in guidebooks are largely tertiary and are, more often than not, contradicted by the source material.
That, and they aren't even accepted by the Wiki, are they?

For instance, the only "serious" damage Tien ever inflicts upon Goku is during Ch. 128 and 129,—i.e., before he uses his "battle level" power,—when he takes Goku by surprise in Ch. 130, and when Chiaotzu interferes with Psychokinesis. After Goku powers up, though, he trounces Tien.

Tien even admits, "Whenever I go head to head against him... even I am at a disadvantage."
Goku was greatly superior.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

base forms, yes
PL are not absolute, goku can be more skilled

I'm pretty sure it's stated that a 2× difference in Dragon Ball is a stomp.

 

[Sus]

OP would make Kid Goku x2 stronger than Tien's base power?

i mean as i said power levels arent absolute
goku has almost the same power level in the piccolo and raditz sagas despite training hard for 5 years
feats > PLs

I'm pretty sure it's stated that a 2× difference in Dragon Ball is a stomp.

its not stated, but it is true

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

i mean as i said power levels arent absolute
goku has almost the same power level in the piccolo and raditz sagas despite training hard for 5 years

I'm pretty sure he wasn't, at least every piece of media outside of the original manga states he wasn't doing as such because of helping raise his new family.

 

[Sus]

I'm pretty sure he wasn't, at least every piece of media outside of the original manga states he wasn't doing as such because of helping raise his new family.

he does say he was training
but that's not the point so

 

[Damage3245]

and Super Exciting Guide: Character Volume's "Character Collection" describe the technique as "surpassing human limits" and "[transcending] the scope of martial arts".

I feel like these statements are not in support of a multiplier at all:

"Remarkably, Tien Shinhan's technique involves sprouting additional arms from his back, attacking with a total of four arms—truly surpassing human limits."

Yeah, attacking with four arms instead of two does surpass human limits.... because humans are typically limited to just two arms.

"He has mastered techniques which transcend the scope of martial arts, such as growing two extra hands from his back and splitting into four duplicates."

Growing extra hands is what transcends martial arts. It's a pretty supernatural ability after all. It doesn't say he transcends martial arts by multiplying his power.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I'm pretty sure it's stated that a 2× difference in Dragon Ball is a stomp.

Daizenshuu 7/Chouzenshuu 4's entry on the Barrier technique asserts exerting twice as much Ki as your opponent can nullify their energy attacks, but the only energy attack Tien used against Goku after Ch. 129 is the Tri-Beam, which is explicitly far greater than anything anybody could currently normally output.

I feel like these statements are not in support of a multiplier at all:

They were mainly to emphasize the technique's unique nature.
Lends more credence to the possibility of the technique providing a strength increase, unlike, say, a regular Rush Attack like Rock, Scissors 'N' Paper.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

After Goku powers up, though, he trounces Tien.

Tien even admits, "Whenever I go head to head against him... even I am at a disadvantage."
Goku was greatly superior.

I feel like the third one is a bit misleading, Tien was caught off-guard by Goku being unaffected from the Solar Flare. Could probably say the same about the first one, since that's when Goku started using his full power. Think we could also attribute most of these to Tien just being at a skill disadvantage.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Power Levels detailed in guidebooks are largely tertiary and are, more often than not, contradicted by the source material.
That, and they aren't even accepted by the Wiki, are they?

Oh ye, and the entire reason why Tien is even 5-C at all is because he has a PL of 180, which is superior to 23rd Budokai Yamcha's PL of 177.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Oh ye, and the entire reason why Tien is even 5-C at all is because he has a PL of 180, which is superior to 23rd Budokai Yamcha's PL of 177.

No, it's because Roshi said he would've outright beaten him had they actually fought all out.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

No, it's because Roshi said he would've outright beaten him had they actually fought all out.

Nah, that Roshi only became 5-C once Tien did, he used to be similar to his "21st Budokai" key, a.k.a "8-C, far higher with MAX Power, 5-C with MAX Power Kamehameha"

 

[SlendVeny]

Don't Tien and Goku both have the same PL of 180?

Something something Saiyans get stronger as they fight

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Think we could also attribute most of these to Tien just being at a skill disadvantage.

He gets floored one, two, three, four times.
He was physically outmatched.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Something something Saiyans get stronger as they fight

The funny thing is that you can argue Tien got a little stronger too due to a mental amp since Toriyama has said Ki involves "right mindedness" and Tien noted he never felt more free in his life.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Assuming the thread continues past 3:00 PM, my replies are going to be less frequent because I have to work until 7:30 PM.

 

[Nierre]

Neutral so far.

the aura that indicates the gathering and amplification of strength.

Off-topic but does the Z era ever use this aura at all? Or did Toriyama stop using it after OG.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Off the top of my head, when Goku arrives before Vegeta and Nappa and reveals his full power for the Saiyans and when Krillin uses the Scattering Bullet.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Neutral so far.

Off-topic but does the Z era ever use this aura at all? Or did Toriyama stop using it after OG.

I think it's used as Frieza's full power aura as well in the namek saga.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

 

[Sus]

might sound slow but what about the aura? is it artistical implication that tien got stronger?

while i do agree that the attack seems to enhance ap, the scaling chain is iffy

 

[Nullflowerblush]

The aura indicates Tien is either (1) unleashing his full power, (2) is concentrating his strength into his arms, which amplifies his power (and is confirmed by Adventure Special), or (3) both.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Oh is it different?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

bump

 

[AwkguyDB]

bump

 

[Sus]

probably tag staff

 

[Nullflowerblush]

i can't do that.

 

[Sus]

i can't do that.

i meant like asking staff to comment

 

[AwkguyDB]

bump