Tien Shinhan High 4-C upgrade

[DivineAura44]

I meant to respond to every point you made, rather than just one (but I accidentally sent it.) I'm gonna stop to address every point so every argument is compiled.
I just wanna point out that by your argument, 17 would have been off guard anyways so he would have been one shot yet for some odd reason Tien doesn't do it there.

 

[Just_Butchering]

All the Z-Fighters took dumbass decisions in this arc, let's not pretend Tien not using the Tri-Beam is incoherent lol.

Like, the arcs happens because a time traveler told them about the androids and they decided to train instead of prevent this lmao

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

All the Z-Fighters took dumbass decisions in this arc, let's not pretend Tien not using the Tri-Beam is incoherent lol.

Like, the arcs happens because a time traveler told them about the androids and they decided to train instead of prevent this lmao

PIS isn't a justification for this. If your only argument is that he didn't use it because he was stupid, then this is not a good sign. Tien himself stated they can't beat them, so even if he'd have gotten a clear shot with the neo tri beam on them it wouldn't work, even though a blast that is stronger than Android 16 will one shot both of them

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I just wanna point out that by your argument, 17 would have been off guard anyways so he would have been one shot yet for some odd reason Tien doesn't do it there.

17 wouldn't try to prevent Tien from doing this as he's pretty cocky and he wouldn't know Tien is capable of such a blast. And given Tien thought they will lose even if he tried to use it on them means it wouldn't have worked on them

 

[CloverDragon03]

PIS isn't a justification for this. If your only argument is that he didn't use it because he was stupid, then this is not a good sign. Tien himself stated they can't beat them, so even if he'd have gotten a clear shot with the neo tri beam on them it wouldn't work, even though a blast that is stronger than Android 16 will one shot both of them

You're actually very much able to write something off as PIS if the scaling is justified and the only reason [X] thing you're mentioning doesn't happen is because of plot

Like, you really can't deny that the Neo Tri-Beam did more to Semi-Perfect Cell than Android 16 ever did

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Like, you really can't deny that the Neo Tri-Beam did more to Semi-Perfect Cell than Android 16 ever did

Both did nothing. Cell was only knocked back by the tri beam, and I can defintely say when it contradicts earlier statements from Tien himself. If he had this much power already, he would've known the power of the neo tri beam is far stronger than SSJ Vegeta, but Tien still treats Vegeta and Goku's power as vastly above everyone else, including his own, even though he's aware of his own technique

This will also lead to absurd matches such as Tien VS 17, where you can make an argument Tien wins because of this even though in the manga he said directly none of them stood a chance, especially after Vegeta was defeated by 18

The scaling makes no sense when Tien himself stated every Super Saiyan was far above him and everyone else, so:

Tien with Tri Beam > Android 16 >> Android 17 > SSJ Vegeta >>> Tien (Including the tri beam) ???

 

[Huesito88]

This will also lead to absurd matches such as Tien VS 17, where you can make an argument Tien wins because of this even though in the manga he said directly none of them stood a chance, especially after Vegeta was defeated by 18

Well it's a good thing we now have established rules for in universe matches (cough thank you Zeno vs Hit cough)

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Well it's a good thing we now have established rules for in universe matches (cough thank you Zeno vs Hit cough)

I mean I don't think anyone seriously suggests Hit can kill Zeno or even blitz him. Meanwhile this upgrades suggests Tien could kill Android 17 in a VS battle match even though in universe he can't win. People will literally claim this if it goes through

Also Hit VS Zeno was because of Zeno not resisting hax supposedly, while Tien VS 17 would be just AP vs durability. These are 2 different scenarions so the rule isn't relevant here

 

[Damage3245]

Fused Zamasu is way more powerful than Vegeta, yet Vegeta could still blast him to pieces and Zamasu only survived because of his immortality.

Moro with Seven-Three absorbed is way more powerful than Goku, yet Goku could still blast his arm off. If he had blasted Moro's head clean off, he'd have killed him.

Tien having a move that could kill Android 17 in theory isn't that big of an issue. It's like Krillin's Kienzan could've theoretically killed Frieza if he'd decapitated him instead of just hitting his tail. If Krillin could've killed the Androids by cutting them in half with his Kienzan, it would've been bad writing to have him not even try it but it wouldn't be impossible just because he never got the chance to do it.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Tien having a move that could kill Android 17 in theory isn't that big of an issue. It's like Krillin's Kienzan could've theoretically killed Frieza if he'd decapitated him instead of just hitting his tail.

Krillin wouldn't have been able to kill Frieza though. He survived getting sliced by his own version of the Kienzan. Frieza even was shown to survive as chopped pieces, meaning Trunks only killed him when vaporizing him, so that's not really a good example to use

If Krillin could've killed the Androids by cutting them in half with his Kienzan, it would've been bad writing to have him not even try it but it wouldn't be impossible just because he never got the chance to do it.

That wasn't confirmed, as when he tried shooting at Perfect Cell, but Cell's ki alone blocked Krillin's Kienzan

Fused Zamasu is way more powerful than Vegeta, yet Vegeta could still blast him to pieces and Zamasu only survived because of his immortality.

Goku blasted Cell's entire head off and he wasn't stronger than Cell at all. Also, that was Infinite Zamasu. It's very likely he let himself be blown up precisely because he was immortal and each time he regenerated he basically multiplied. so Vegeta blasting him only made him stronger

 

[Damage3245]

Goku blasted Cell's entire head off and he wasn't stronger than Cell at all.

That's exactly my point.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

That's exactly my point.

Though unlike with the Androids, all the villains mentioned had regeneration, or were caught off guard when it happened. Goku used a Kienzan to slice Super Buu in half too but no one would say Goku was stronger

All of the examples you listed are from weaker foes being able to damage stronger beings and potentially kill them with weaker attacks (Goku's Kamehameha, Vegeta's Blast, the Kienzan on Frieza/Cell/Buu, Goku blasting Moro), but the upgrade suggests instead that the tri beam is actually stronger than Android 17 because of that even though we saw many examples like that before and they don't get upgraded. No one will scale Goku to Cell because of the instant kamehameha for example

 

[Damage3245]

Though unlike with the Androids, all the villains mentioned had regeneration, or were caught off guard when it happened. Goku used a Kienzan to slice Super Buu in half too but no one would say Goku was stronger

Nobody is saying that Tien is stronger than the Androids either... It's just with one specific attack.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Both did nothing. Cell was only knocked back by the tri beam, and I can defintely say when it contradicts earlier statements from Tien himself. If he had this much power already, he would've known the power of the neo tri beam is far stronger than SSJ Vegeta, but Tien still treats Vegeta and Goku's power as vastly above everyone else, including his own, even though he's aware of his own technique

Plot-Induced Stupidity. Let's not forget the arc we're talking about here

Also the fact remains that knocking down Cell to the point that he couldn't escape even when he was desperately trying to get to 18 is a more impressive feat than anything 16 could do to him. Tien treating Vegeta and Goku's power above his own makes complete sense btw, because he can only amp his power to that level via one technique that would literally kill him to use. Anyone can amp themselves by a lot in exchange for their life. That's not a foreign concept

This will also lead to absurd matches such as Tien VS 17, where you can make an argument Tien wins because of this even though in the manga he said directly none of them stood a chance, especially after Vegeta was defeated by 18

The scaling makes no sense when Tien himself stated every Super Saiyan was far above him and everyone else, so:

Tien with Tri Beam > Android 16 >> Android 17 > SSJ Vegeta >>> Tien (Including the tri beam) ???

"It will result in VS matches I don't like" isn't a reason to oppose a CRT. The rest I've addressed already

 

[Just_Butchering]

"It will result in VS matches I don't like" isn't a reason to oppose a CRT. The rest I've addressed already

Yeah, and tbf, unless speed is equalized and Tien is bloodlusted or has prior knowledge, he ain't using Tri-Beam (actually, this is just Neo Tri-Beam I think) in-character as an opening attack

 

[DivineAura44]

And given Tien thought they will lose even if he tried to use it on them means it wouldn't have worked on them

So you think the move that stunned Semi-Perfect Cell wouldn't have worked on A17? Are we serious right now? This is why I gotta respond to the other points.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

So you think the move that stunned Semi-Perfect Cell wouldn't have worked on A17? Are we serious right now? This is why I gotta respond to the other points.

It would've stunned 17, but not kill him, because Tien himself said as such

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Nobody is saying that Tien is stronger than the Androids either... It's just with one specific attack.

Literally yes you do with the tri beam. With the tri beam you scale him to above 16.

It's like I'd give Cell Games Goku a rating of "higher" with the Kamehameha and scale him above Perfect Cell for blowing his head out, or DBS Manga SSB Goku gets scaled above UI Sign Goku with the Kamehameha as well because he blew up Moro's Arm

 

[CloverDragon03]

It would've stunned 17, but not kill him, because Tien himself said as such

Tien did not say this, you are extrapolating it

 

[Damage3245]

It's like I'd give Cell Games Goku a rating of "higher" with the Kamehameha and scale him above Perfect Cell for blowing his head out, or DBS Manga SSB Goku gets scaled above UI Sign Goku with the Kamehameha as well because he blew up Moro's Arm

Yeah, that's what I think should be the case. Though it's more like 'up to' that high since it varies.

 

[DivineAura44]

It would've stunned 17, but not kill him, because Tien himself said as such

So it visibly stuns Semi Perfect Cell but 17 would have survived it? He would have just been stunned? Are you serious?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yeah, that's what I think should be the case. Though it's more like 'up to' that high since it varies.

So you will scale Goku's Kamehameha above Perfect Cell because of this logic? Or SSB Goku above UIS Goku for blasting Moro's Arm off? Both cases are absurd and contradicted by the narrative, so granting them this tier of power makes no sense

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Tien did not say this

Yes he did. He says it verbatim

 

[Damage3245]

So you will scale Goku's Kamehameha above Perfect Cell because of this logic? Or SSB Goku above UIS Goku for blasting Moro's Arm off? Both cases are absurd and contradicted by the narrative, so granting them this tier of power makes no sense

Both cases are contradicted by the narrative? Huh? How could Goku blast Perfect Cell's upper body to pieces if his blast wasn't strong enough to do that? And it's not a matter of saying SSB Goku > UIS Goku... It was specifically with a charged-up Kamehameha at point-blank range. If UIS Goku did the same, then it would be even more powerrful.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Both cases are contradicted by the narrative? Huh? How could Goku blast Perfect Cell's upper body to pieces if his blast wasn't strong enough to do that?

Just like how Vegeta's final flash destroyed part of Cell's arm even though Vegeta wasn't stronger than Cell and he directly said as such? Not to mention Goku's instant kamehameha caught Cell off guard as he did not expect Goku to do it

And it's not a matter of saying SSB Goku > UIS Goku... It was specifically with a charged-up Kamehameha at point-blank range. If UIS Goku did the same, then it would be even more powerrful.

Goku charged a Kamehameha in UIS, and it doesn't do nearly as much damage to Moro when he didn't absorb 73, so Goku in SSB scaling above UIS Goku's Kamehameha makes no sense

 

[Damage3245]

Just like how Vegeta's final flash destroyed part of Cell's arm even though Vegeta wasn't stronger than Cell and he directly said as such? Not to mention Goku's instant kamehameha caught Cell off guard as he did not expect Goku to do it

I don't understand how you can't see that this is the exact point that the opposition are bringing up? Vegeta normally isn't as strong as Perfect Cell. Vegeta, with all the time in the world to charge up his Final Flash, can inflict a lethal wound on Perfect Cell.

Goku charged a Kamehameha in UIS, and it doesn't do nearly as much damage to Moro when he didn't absorb 73, so Goku in SSB scaling above UIS Goku's Kamehameha makes no sense

Obviously that wasn't charged up as much. Hence why I said it varies; not every single Kamehameha he emits is going to be at full power.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yes he did. He says it verbatim

Tien did not say that his Neo Tri-Beam would be ineffective against Android 17 like you are claiming

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Tien did not say that his Neo Tri-Beam would be ineffective against Android 17 like you are claiming

He said they can't win, and he is aware of his own tri beam. Arguing he doesn't know about it for some reason is stupid

I don't understand how you can't see that this is the exact point that the opposition are bringing up? Vegeta normally isn't as strong as Perfect Cell. Vegeta, with all the time in the world to charge up his Final Flash, can inflict a lethal wound on Perfect Cell.

That's not what you say. You say Vegeta's full power even when charged up will be stronger than Perfect Cell when it was made clear he's not. The only reason it would've killed him (and even then it's debatable because of Cell's regeneration). We see Vegeta being at awe of Goku's power on the Cell Games, despite charging the final flash and collecting all his ki he couldn't come close to Goku or Cell

 

[CloverDragon03]

He said they can't win, and he is aware of his own tri beam. Arguing he doesn't know about it for some reason is stupid

There's two of them. What's stopping one from attacking him even as he's hitting the other one. 17 and 18 are kinda the masters of jumping people

You should also be careful with how you phrase things, because you were talking as if Tien specifically mentioned his Neo Tri-Beam being ineffective when that just never happened.

(This is all assuming that the idea of the Neo Tri-Beam was even a thing around this time)

 

[Dust_Collector]

(This is all assuming that the idea of the Neo Tri-Beam was even a thing around this time)

Honestly, even tho it is a meta reason, I think the biggest reason the Neo Tri-Beam wasn't considered as a viable attack prior to using it on cell was because Toriyama hasn't thought of it at that point. He was already writing the arc by the seat of his pants and had to deal with having to keep changing who the actual villain was due to his editors (19 and 20/Gero were actually the ones who destroyed the future until he got told they didn't look cool enough or whatever so that had to be retconned quickly into 17 and 18).

 

[Just_Butchering]

So you will scale Goku's Kamehameha above Perfect Cell because of this logic?

More like, SS Goku ≈ Suppressed Perfect Cell << Goku's Full power Kamehameha << Cell's Full Power

 

[Vizer04]

It's like I'd give Cell Games Goku a rating of "higher" with the Kamehameha and scale him above Perfect Cell for blowing his head out

Cell never used his full power against Goku, he was holding back the whole fight.

 

[Dalesean027]

Toriyama hasn't thought of it at that point. He was already writing the arc by the seat of his pants and had to deal with having to keep changing who the actual villain was due to his editors (19 and 20/Gero were actually the ones who destroyed the future until he got told they didn't look cool enough or whatever so that had to be retconned quickly into 17 and 18).

Actual realest shit ever said, no made bullshit up as they go on the fly and also made it work quite like him

 

[Vizer04]

You can't say it's an outlier because it's legit the only time Tien used this attack ever. The real outlier is Tien not using it before, that's it. We do the same with Krillin not using the Kienzan.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Actual realest shit ever said, no made bullshit up as they go on the fly and also made it work quite like him

That's why he was the GOAT

 

[Vizer04]

Honestly, the fact that the Android Arc is readable at all despite all the last-minute changes and meddling is a miracle ngl

 

[Vizer04]

Y'all have to understand that the Z-Fighters have a "honor code" of sorts. They don't interfere in fights unless they're one-sided or for survival. You may not agree with this mindset or think it's stupid, but it's how they operate.

18 agreed to fight Vegeta uninterrupted and 17 respected that. 17 only jumped in when Trunks tried to interfere.

All of this happened so fast that Tien didn't have time to plan a Tri-Beam at all.

This happened again when they let Piccolo fight 17 (but in that case they we're waiting for Vegeta and Trunks to exit the Time Chamber)

 

[Damage3245]

Honestly, even tho it is a meta reason, I think the biggest reason the Neo Tri-Beam wasn't considered as a viable attack prior to using it on cell was because Toriyama hasn't thought of it at that point. He was already writing the arc by the seat of his pants and had to deal with having to keep changing who the actual villain was due to his editors (19 and 20/Gero were actually the ones who destroyed the future until he got told they didn't look cool enough or whatever so that had to be retconned quickly into 17 and 18).

This is actually the truth. Cell didn't even exist yet in concept when Android 19 and Dr. Gero were around.

If there's inconsistency with Tien's portrayal over the course of the arc we can blame it on retcon at the end of the day.

That's not what you say. You say Vegeta's full power even when charged up will be stronger than Perfect Cell when it was made clear he's not. The only reason it would've killed him (and even then it's debatable because of Cell's regeneration). We see Vegeta being at awe of Goku's power on the Cell Games, despite charging the final flash and collecting all his ki he couldn't come close to Goku or Cell

Did you forget to finish a sentence here? "The only reason it would've killed him..."?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

This is actually the truth. Cell didn't even exist yet in concept when Android 19 and Dr. Gero were around.

If there's inconsistency with Tien's portrayal over the course of the arc we can blame it on retcon at the end of the day.

That is true, but shouldn't the wikia aim for consistency in ther profiles?

Did you forget to finish a sentence here? "The only reason it would've killed him..."?

My bad, I was meant to say that the only reason it'd have killed (debatably since Cell can regenerate from a single cell, and they needed to make sure they're all destroyed) is because Cell was off guard, as he only braced himself at the very last moment before it hit

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Y'all have to understand that the Z-Fighters have a "honor code" of sorts. They don't interfere in fights unless they're one-sided or for survival. You may not agree with this mindset or think it's stupid, but it's how they operate.

That's not really the point. It's not like they said they could've done this but due to the honor code / pride or whatever, Tien never had a chance to use it and win (since a blast strong enough to overpower 16 would vaporize 17 and 18), but that Tien outright can't use this to defeat the Androids, and insisted they can't win. Tien also did not train in the days since the battle, so he already knows the about neo tri beam

This happened again when they let Piccolo fight 17 (but in that case they we're waiting for Vegeta and Trunks to exit the Time Chamber)

18 and 16 just watched from the sidelines while Piccolo fought 17. Here they didn't have any rules they couldn't fight 18 but they still didn't. Even more so since they know killing 18 will prevent Cell from becoming Perfect