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OG Dragon Ball 5-C Scaling to Roshi's Moon-Busting Feat Should be Removed

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We topic-ban or thread-ban people for causing undesirable heatness.
We had for months (or years, don't recall 110%) a rule for avoiding heatness in Naruto x Bleach threads, and have to this very day we have rules specifically to Marvel/DC scaling cuz it gave problems.
We literally have in the main point of discussion in this forum "Please avoid highly controversial topics" very high in the page, almost impossible to not have noticed.

And yet we do nothing against a topic that single-handedly keeps bothering everyone for at least 2000 days? Makes no sense to me.
What's needed for us to achieve this, a Staff Thread? Then imma try to pull it off in this very moment
 
noninho said:
We topic-ban or thread-ban people for causing undesirable heatness.
We had for months (or years, don't recall 110%) a rule for avoiding heatness in Naruto x Bleach threads, and have to this very day we have rules specifically to Marvel/DC scaling cuz it gave problems.
We literally have in the main point of discussion in this forum "Please avoid highly controversial topics" very high in the page, almost impossible to not have noticed.

And yet we do nothing against a topic that single-handedly keeps bothering everyone for at least 2000 days? Makes no sense to me.
What's needed for us to achieve this, a Staff Thread? Then imma try to pull it off in this very moment
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I actually agree with this
 
Damage3245 said:
I didn't say anything about Vegito or other characters. The argument I was bringing up was that if King Piccolo is casually Moon level, then destroying a city should've been a casual matter, but it looked like he had to visibly put effort into it. That was all. I didn't say that all DB characters are only as powerful as the biggest thing they've blown up.
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This is going directly against one of the first things we highlight in our Attack Potency page: that it's not at all equivalent to Destructive Capacity

What Rusty brings up is a perfectly apt comparison because he put his all into a Final Kamehameha that barely looks like Tier 7 against Fused Zamasu, yet we're not trying to downgrade Vegito Blue to Tier 7 are we?
 
Here we go again...

But anyway, I heavily disagree FRA. It's important to note this was 21st Budokai Roshi. And it was stated on multiple threads, Roshi has trained in secret between 21st and 22nd Budokai; given he just barely won last time. And Goku has strength multiplied since then. I can't make any base form growths, even his seriousness form is even stronger and/or more stable than it was when he did the Moon level feat. If anything, that only doubles down on why the Moon level should have scaling grownds this time around. Goku and Tien are stated by Roshi to be outright stronger than himself, or that Tien's Tri Beam "Surpasses the Kamehamaha."

King Piccolo is even more blatant. Master Roshi literally says in a head on fight, his chances of victory are 0. And he even called him "invincible" or something like that. Implying even the new improved Max Power Kamehameha would basically do 0 damage. And I do not need to explain what happens next, though even at Roshi's current state. He doesn't consider himself as strong as Mutaito, who also was unable even scratch King Piccolo. But that's subjective but consistent. Kami restoring the moon may be hypothesized and even I have doubts, but he upscales from everyone else before him regardless. With Goku and Piccolo during 23rd Budokai also being even stronger than Kami + Goku has his own Super Kamehameha that Piccolo tanked (Moon busting statement combined with it being far stronger than everyone before them in all).

And yes, a discussion rule I can support as well.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
What Rusty brings up is a perfectly apt comparison because he put his all into a Final Kamehameha that barely looks like Tier 7 against Fused Zamasu, yet we're not trying to downgrade Vegito Blue to Tier 7 are we?
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That was me, actually. Although I mostly made that comment as a joke. Though I do agree that saying Piccolo taking time to charge a city destroying attack isn't a viable outlier for him being 5-C, since if we were to scale based on DC, well, Dragon Ball would be a f*cking mess with its weird ass treasure trove of DC outliers.

At this point Earth should be 2-C
 
ReaperAndBlues said:
That was me, actually. Although I mostly made that comment as a joke. Though I do agree that saying Piccolo taking time to charge a city destroying attack isn't a viable outlier for him being 5-C, since if we were to scale based on DC, well, Dragon Ball would be a f*cking mess with its weird ass treasure trove of DC outliers.

At this point Earth should be 2-C
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I mean apparently planets have life energy as shown in the Moro arc
 
Only read the thread and few of the replies. As of now;

Heavy disagree because, wow. The amount of assumptions here and just the over-complication of everything is just, stunning. DB always had stuff like characters suddenly jumping tiers. Take Goku growing from like 4-B to 2-C, there are many instances, and why they are inconsistent? Because surprise surprise, authors kind of don't give a shit and aren't exactly counting joules for every thing a character does. I mean, I doubt they go "Hmm, this character only destroyed a building before, we can't give him an attack that can destroy the moon because it destroys the power scale/the balance.". No, they go "This shit looks sick as hell, make it more blue, make it destroy the moon and give it to the perverted old man." Additionally, if you used the whole "King Piccolo only destroyed a city", then might as well downgrade almost all the DBS character. Zamasu? Vegito? Habibi city level, take it or leave it.

So, regardless, let's see the statements. Roshi said his students are stronger than him, plain and simple. Said no version of kamehameha will work vs Tri-beam, very nice.

How did you manage to take these clear statements and somehow manage to make an argument about how the 5-C feat is invalid, or how "no one, even King Piccolo, scales to it since he didn't use it on King Piccolo"?
Also it's absolutely wild that you want Roshi to say "Hmm, yes, not even my 100% MAX POWER Kamehameha is as strong as them" when it comes to him saying his students surpassed him. Why would he even need to specify anything, when just mentioning the fact they have surpassed him, is consice and more than enough to know they are stronger? Also, lmao at the whole "It could be they surpassed him in other things", brother we are in dragon ball. Raw power is kind of their thing.

Anyways, can't argue much to be honest since I'm going off of pure memory from like, quite a long time ago. But from what I recall and the few rereads of chapters I just did, as well as the scans, I heavily disagree with this.
 
Omegabronic said:
well, now more staff in this thread are.....at least neutral on making 22td Budokai peeps not 5-C in base stats, as for the arguments?......i dunno
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Not 5-C on the basis of what?

Allow me to vent for a sec

We had a solid thread explaining exactly why they deserve their ranking earlier this year and not even 12 months later someone comes along and brings up the same things discussed in 2019/2020 on the basis of things already debunked and many assumptions, one of the most egregious ones being that guidebooks like dainzenshuu is constantly inconsistent to the point where we can’t use it for even the most basic stuff, and y’all jump on that shii like it’s a breathe of fresh air yet on two separate threads (speaking on Damage specifically here) you agree on the 5-C scaling. Hell you even made a thread getting them down to possibly which not only failed but you ended very abruptly mind you. It’s time to put this Roshi stuff to rest at this point. I didn’t even list all of the threads talking about this one topic back and forth.
 
AwkguyDB said:
Not 5-C on the basis of what?
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Roshi only being that strong with his Max Power form + Max power Kamehameha...........not that i will argue for this, i can see the value, but meh, like other staff, i don't really care

AwkguyDB said:
We had a solid thread explaining exactly why they deserve their ranking earlier this year and not even 12 months later someone comes along and brings up the same things discussed in 2019/2020 on the basis of things already debunked and many assumptions, one of the most egregious ones being that guidebooks like dainzenshuu is constantly inconsistent to the point where we can’t use it for even the most basic stuff, and y’all jump on that shii like it’s a breathe of fresh air yet on two separate threads (speaking on Damage specifically here) you agree on the 5-C scaling. Hell you even made a thread getting them down to possibly which not only failed but you ended very abruptly mind you. It’s time to put this Roshi stuff to rest at this point. I didn’t even list all of the threads talking about this one topic back and forth.
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i.......am not jumping on "that shii" tho, i agreed on keeping DKP at solid 5-C......i understand the frustration............but i don't really get why say this to me and not Damage, as he is the one you are renting about
 
A topic rejected several times based on these arguments has no right to pass on the umpteenth attempt.

Disagree FRA and for every reason mentioned in every other thread that failed.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
This is going directly against one of the first things we highlight in our Attack Potency page: that it's not at all equivalent to Destructive Capacity

What Rusty brings up is a perfectly apt comparison because he put his all into a Final Kamehameha that barely looks like Tier 7 against Fused Zamasu, yet we're not trying to downgrade Vegito Blue to Tier 7 are we?
Click to expand...

How many times do I need to say this isn't my argument? I feel like nobody ever actually understands what I mean when I bring up this point, but it doesn't matter since I've moved on from this.



EDIT: I already know this thread isn't getting accepted so this point is just more of a thought experiment, but; Master Roshi has already displayed imprecise control with his Max Power Kamehameha when he wiped out an entire mountain and castle on top of it when he was aiming to just blow away the fires on it. If Master Roshi had attempted to use it on Demon King Piccolo, who knows if he might've blown up a significant portion of the world he was trying to save? Like I said though, this isn't a serious argument so feel free to ignore it, and I know there are other arguments already in support of the current rating.
 
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Damage3245 said:
Master Roshi has already displayed imprecise control with his Max Power Kamehameha ………. If Master Roshi had attempted to use it on Demon King Piccolo, who knows if he might've blown up a significant portion of the world he was trying to save? Like I said though, this isn't a serious argument so feel free to ignore it, and I know there are other arguments already in support of the current rating.
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This is such a weak argument, there is literally no reason to entertain it. If imprecise control of the Kamehameha is its flaw, why even use it at all let alone teach it to 3 other people whom you know you want to surpass you in strength? Are we saying the Moon level feat was imprecise yet he deliberately destroyed it? Roshi said explicitly there is no way at all ever will they be able to stand up to Piccolo in combat. Also keep in mind when he destroyed Frypan mountain he for sure was capable of destroying the moon at that time and yet he doesn’t. Did he overdo it sure but the Muten knew he wasn’t going to blow up half the world with it.
 
AwkguyDB said:
This is such a weak argument, there is literally no reason to entertain it. If imprecise control of the Kamehameha is its flaw, why even use it at all let alone teach it to 3 other people whom you know you want to surpass you in strength? Are we saying the Moon level feat was imprecise yet he deliberately destroyed it? Roshi said explicitly there is no way at all ever will they be able to stand up to Piccolo in combat. Also keep in mind when he destroyed Frypan mountain he for sure was capable of destroying the moon at that time and yet he doesn’t. Did he overdo it sure but the Muten knew he wasn’t going to blow up half the world with it.
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My point was moreso that when targeting the Moon Master Roshi didn't need to worry about precision and he could blow it up without risk of affecting his surroundings. I acknowledge that it's a weak argument though; not a serious one.
 
Damage3245 said:
For future reference, if you're confident in some proposal being wrong then just supply the counter-evidence / counter-arguments and have faith that it'll be easily dismissed. Complaining that people are bringing up proposals you don't like "in the current year" is just silly and not productive for the thread. We get it.
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Not to be antagonistic but you don’t get it if you don’t realize that you’ve agreed to this scaling not even that long ago and are now backtracking based off of ridiculous headcanon and baseless assumptions. Topaz made a thread countering your own thread and you agreed with it! Now you are back tracking because……new evidence? Can’t be since this is all again the same evidence for years. Your fellow staff even agree this needs to be a rule at this point.
 
AwkguyDB said:
Not to be antagonistic but you don’t get it if you don’t realize that you’ve agreed to this scaling not even that long ago and are now backtracking based off of ridiculous headcanon and baseless assumptions. Topaz made a thread countering your own thread and you agreed with it! Now you are back tracking because……new evidence? Can’t be since this is all again the same evidence for years. Your fellow staff even agree this needs to be a rule at this point.
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I think you missed earlier in the thread where I said I don't agree with the thread's proposals?
 
AwkguyDB said:
I’m just going off of this point here
Click to expand...
Yes, my very first post in the thread where I explicitly didn't give a vote one way or the other but just approached the OP with an open mind and waited to see the counter-arguments and other opinions of users and staff members.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Roshi’s max power Kamehameha is faster than everyone else in the verse at this point if they do not scale to it at all. Which means he should be able to blitz King Piccolo with it and kill him in a single hit.

Why is he saying there is no way for him to kill King Piccolo as if jumping him while he charges the Kamehameha to blitz and one shot him isn’t an option.
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That's assuming King Piccolo will just stand by and watch as Master Roshi pumps up to his maximum power and prepare his Kamehameha. He doesn't even need to dodge the blast as it's fired, he can just get behind Roshi or interrupt the attack before it's fired. Too many flaws exist with firing the MAX Power Kamehameha to make the assumption that King Piccolo is strong enough to endure it. It also assumes any of the fighters were strong enough to jump King Piccolo at the time, which is blatantly false.
 
Dalesean027 said:
This is heavily sourced dawg this is the consistent lore of Goku's kamehameha here

How you feel doesn't matter when what is says is as objective and blatant as it is
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If you wanna go the route of using heavily sourced materials, then you could also use the Weekly Jump & Daizenshuu statement which says King Piccolo's full power is equivalent to a small nuclear bomb. That is directly supported by the fact King Piccolo took quite a lot of time and effort to gather the energy he needed in order to level a city. That is King Piccolo's strongest visible feat supported by a statement. It's not objective and blatant that King Piccolo and Post-Divine Water Goku are strong enough to endure Roshi's MAX Power Kamehameha when the next strongest feat is only city level, when Roshi's most powerful attack has a massive charge time that gives his opponent plenty of time to either get behind or rush Roshi before he can even fire the Kamehameha, and when there's no direct statement that even Roshi's MAX Power Kamehameha is insufficient against King Piccolo or Tien.
 
Emerald said:
Tbf Piccolo saw Goku charging a Kamehameha, shit his pants thinking it was Mafuba while Goku was charging the attack, and just stood there flabbergasted. Bro didn't even try to dodge
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I explained that in the OP, Piccolo only chose to tank it when he witnessed Goku's power firsthand and realized it wasn't the Kamehameha. He knew it wouldn't hurt him, and it's why he chose to tank it. There's no guarantee King Piccolo would just stand there and tank Roshi's MAX Power Kamehameha, and even if it's possible, Roshi wouldn't gamble the fate of the planet on something King Piccolo might do.
 
I'd be fine with keeping all the 23rd Budokai characters 5-C based on some supporting statements, but I still believe all the 5-C scaling before that except for Roshi's MAX Power Kamehameha should be removed. Even if Tienn's Tri-beam is 5-C, it's still a dodgeable move that takes a lot of charge-up time and doesn't reflect his general AP.
 
CiscoTheSoto said:
I'd be fine with keeping all the 23rd Budokai characters 5-C based on some supporting statements, but I still believe all the 5-C scaling before that except for Roshi's MAX Power Kamehameha should be removed. Even if Tienn's Tri-beam is 5-C, it's still a dodgeable move that takes a lot of charge-up time and doesn't reflect his general AP.
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I recommend putting your proposal for the affected characters in a sandbox, then a final decision can be made regarding the proposal.
 
CiscoTheSoto said:
I'd be fine with keeping all the 23rd Budokai characters 5-C based on some supporting statements, but I still believe all the 5-C scaling before that except for Roshi's MAX Power Kamehameha should be removed. Even if Tienn's Tri-beam is 5-C, it's still a dodgeable move that takes a lot of charge-up time and doesn't reflect his general AP.
Click to expand...
Even before the 23rd Budokai, you still have plenty of statements that make characters scale to 5-C before then. It’s stated clearly that all of Roshi’s students surpassed him and you have people like Yamcha performing 5-C feats against Kami. Also, Roshi stating that the kamehameha wouldn’t work on him.
 
I think that the scaling should be covered in a different thread. As for this one, I think we've seen enough of this drivel go on to warrant a discussion rule seeing its repeated discussion, and disapproval.... after disapproval.... after disapproval... after, you get the point
 
ReaperAndBlues said:
I think that the scaling should be covered in a different thread. As for this one, I think we've seen enough of this drivel go on to warrant a discussion rule seeing its repeated discussion, and disapproval.... after disapproval.... after disapproval... after, you get the point
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Out of curiosity how many threads have there actually been for this topic in recent times? I don't doubt there's been a lot of discussion but I can't recall how many proper CRTs there've been.
 
After reading reading the thread and rereading dragon ball [something some people here should do.] The notion that Maximum Kamehameha requires Bucktown of time to set up, charge and hit the target is...uhh, uhm...kinda just a balant lie? The Kamehameha literally only needed like 3 to 4 panels and boom It happened, it was quick af.
So uh the argument that it's usable because it requires alot of time, and people could Interrupt it in that charging time is...kinda wrong.
 
Ruphas_Mafahl123 said:
This topic regarding 5-C Dragon Ball should be banned, to be honest. Becouse it's a headache.... ̶W̶e̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶a̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶r̶i̶s̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶S̶e̶t̶h̶ ̶b̶u̶l̶l̶y̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶u̶s̶ ̶a̶g̶a̶i̶n̶ ̶l̶o̶l̶
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That'd require a more in-depth discussion among staff as to whether a rule is required IMO. Proving the actual frequency of it will be important, it shouldn't just be the vibes of "This feels like a frequent topic".
 
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