This thing I don't understand about Sans' AP

[GodlyCharmander]

Your answer was--

Alright, a more straightforward answrr. "Why don't the low tier power character doesn't scale to the high tier power character"
Because Sans' magic attacks have 9-B potency, as he has 1 ATK, but his Dura Negation hax allows him to hurt anyone. That's why his magic doesn't have a AP rating, because of it's nature of being intangible and bypassing durability.
That's referring to the actual bullets, and blasts.

Telekinisis isn't scalable to other forms of magic, because he isn't using his magic power to attack Frisk in any way, he is just negating momentum, and throwing them hard enough to hurt them. That is done through the Lifting Strength of said Telekinesis, and Kinetic Energy, which is unrelated to magic.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Alright, a more straightforward answrr. "Why don't the low tier power character doesn't scale to the high tier power character"
Because Sans' magic attacks have 9-B potency, as he has 1 ATK, but his Dura Negation hax allows him to hurt anyone. That's why his magic doesn't have a AP rating, because of it's nature of being intangible and bypassing durability.
That's referring to the actual bullets, and blasts.

Fair, though is weird that you call Sans' attacks 9-B when they are rated 10-B outside of telekinesis.

Telekinisis isn't scalable to other forms of magic, because he isn't using his magic power to attack Frisk in any way, he is just negating momentum, and throwing them hard enough to hurt them. That is done through the Lifting Strength of said Telekinesis, and Kinetic Energy, which is unrelated to magic.

Again, why are you saying that dealing 1 point of damage against Frisk is the justification for his telekinesis to be 9-A, while saying that dealing 1 point of damage is the justification for Sans' attacks to not be 9-A?
And if Telekinesis is lifting strenght, then why is it measured as AP?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Fair, though is weird that you call Sans' attacks 9-B when they are rated 10-B outside of telekinesis.

Got mixed up. Sorry.

Again, why are you saying that dealing 1 point of damage against Frisk is the justification for his telekinesis to be 9-A, while saying that dealing 1 point of damage is the justification for Sans' attacks to not be 9-A?

I will admit, my point was presented poorly.

The telekinesis was used sparling throughout the fight, not once hurting the user.
But at the end, Sans exerts himself to an extreme, causing major damage by spamming the Telekinesis on Frisk, although incapable of killing them if their HP drop to 1. (Might be due to Frisk's Determination and refusing to die after passing through all the fight)

The other attacks shouldn't be in comparison to that, they negate durability, that's my mistake.

What I was trying to say is, if "Character X", who scales to a much lower value than "Character Y", damages them in an RPG (where the minimum damage is usually 1), then it wasn't a legit feat, it was just the game's own mechanics needing Character X's attack to do any form of damage because of the damage formula. Should we really scale an early game monster to a late-game final boss because the game couldn't do a damage lower than 1? It seems like circular scaling, you know?
But still, it's case-by-case.

In the case of the last telekinesis, it was very clearly portrayed as something meant to desperately reduce Frisk's HP in an attempt to kill them, doing significant damage, although at a rapid pace.

If you are still dubious about the legitimacy of the feat, we can downscale his telekinesis to baseline 9-A instead. How does that sound?

And if Telekinesis is lifting strenght, then why is it measured as AP?

Hax/LS Hax can be translated to AP if you can use them as an attack, and it scales above your normal statistics.

I can have 9-A AP, but 7-B Electricity Manipulation, for example.
Or 9-A AP, but 8-C with a specific move that depends on my LS.

We allow for those to be put in the AP section because it basically functions as an attack. Even things that don't apply to attacks, such as environmental destruction, lol.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

The telekinesis was used sparling throughout the fight, not once hurting the user.
But at the end, Sans exerts himself to an extreme, causing major damage by spamming the Telekinesis on Frisk, although incapable of killing them if their HP drop to 1. (Might be due to Frisk's Determination and refusing to die after passing through all the fight)

Ok.

The other attacks shouldn't be in comparison to that, they negate durability, that's my mistake.

By ignoring invincibility frames like his TK does, right?

What I was trying to say is, if "Character X", who scales to a much lower value than "Character Y", damages them in an RPG (where the minimum damage is usually 1), then it wasn't a legit feat, it was just the game's own mechanics needing Character X's attack to do any form of damage because of the damage formula. Should we really scale an early game monster to a late-game final boss because the game couldn't do a damage lower than 1? It seems like circular scaling, you know?

Ok.

In the case of the last telekinesis, it was very clearly portrayed as something meant to desperately reduce Frisk's HP in an attempt to kill them, doing significant damage, although at a rapid pace.

Ok, I see I have to refrase:

When gauging power of a character, we don't take into account the means to pull of a feat (As long as it is feasible in a fight), but it's end result. So for example, if you damage a character that can tank your gunshots with your punches, then your punches scale to your gunshots even though pulling a trigger takes less effort than throwing a punch. Or backwards, if you damage a character that can tank you using a skyscrapper as a baseball bat against them with your punches, then your punches scale to the energy you output by using a skyscrapper as a baseball bat even though that takes more effort than throwing a punch.

Now let's look at Sans' attacks:
What do his bones and beams do? They deal one damage and ignore invincibility frames (Which we stablished to be the means for Sans to ignore durability).
What does his TK do? It deals one damage and ignores invincibility frames (Which we stablished to be the means for Sans to ignore durability).

Why are two attacks with the same result and properties rated differently? Moreover, if both attacks ignore durability but TK is more powerful, then why isn't TK dealing more damage?

If you are still dubious about the legitimacy of the feat, we can downscale his telekinesis to baseline 9-A instead. How does that sound?

Makes as much sense for me as putting minimaly determined Frisk as baseline 9-A for dealing 1 point of damage to Undyne. Or upgrading Frisk's 8-B key to baseline 8-A for dealing 1 point of damage against Photoshop Flowey.

Hax/LS Hax can be translated to AP if you can use them as an attack, and it scales above your normal statistics.

I can have 9-A AP, but 7-B Electricity Manipulation, for example.
Or 9-A AP, but 8-C with a specific move that depends on my LS.

We allow for those to be put in the AP section because it basically functions as an attack. Even things that don't apply to attacks, such as environmental destruction, lol.

Ok.
(Lifting Strenght Hax?)

 

[GodlyCharmander]

By ignoring invincibility frames like his TK does, right?

Telekinesis isn't a magical attack/bullet/blast that triggers invincibility frames, it's not really comparable.

Ok, I see I have to refrase:

When gauging power of a character, we don't take into account the means to pull of a feat (As long as it is feasible in a fight), but it's end result. So for example, if you damage a character that can tank your gunshots with your punches, then your punches scale to your gunshots even though pulling a trigger takes less effort than throwing a punch. Or backwards, if you damage a character that can tank you using a skyscrapper as a baseball bat against them with your punches, then your punches scale to the energy you output by using a skyscrapper as a baseball bat even though that takes more effort than throwing a punch.

Ehhh, kinda inaccurate.
If you have a rapid-fire attack, and said attack damages a 9-A character, then that attack in particular will scale to 9-A, even if a singular attack doesn't.
Example being Luffy.

His punches and attacks are 7-C, but he can do Low 7-B damage with Gomu Gomu no Storm, which is literally just him punching in a rapid-fire.

Now let's look at Sans' attacks:
What do his bones and beams do? They deal one damage and ignore invincibility frames (Which we stablished to be the means for Sans to ignore durability).
What does his TK do? It deals one damage and ignores invincibility frames (Which we stablished to be the means for Sans to ignore durability).

Why are two attacks with the same result and properties rated differently? Moreover, if both attacks ignore durability but TK is more powerful, then why isn't TK dealing more damage?

TK isn't "more powerful" or "less powerful". Both are not even in the same field of comparison.

His magic bypasses durability, it doesn't have a established power level, so saying TK is more, less, or comparatively powerful is redudant.

Again, I have to insist, Telekinesis is not an magical attack, a magical bullet, a magical energy beam, or projectile. These things have been shown to trigger INV frames, while Sans' attacks, bullets, and beams don't. Therefore it's dura neg hax, because his bullets are blatantly bypassing something other bullets aren't capable of.

We're comparing bullets to bullets here.

Now, with Telekinesis. Magic isn't being used at all in an offensive form. It's just physically throwing them into a wall, the game doesn't respond to this as a bullet coming into contact with you, it's not even registered as an attack, because it's literally just natural kinetic energy.

Sans' bullets, unlike other bullets, don't trigger INV frames due to hax.

Sans' telekinesis, much like other (scarce) situations of just physics being physics, do not trigger INV frames because the game itself doesn't trigger them.

And how would that even make sense? We have established, magic isn't being used to damage Frisk, it's just impact. How would one argue that Sans can slam someone and hurt them even though their durability should resist the impact? Unlike with the bullets, you cannot use magic to justify that.

Ok.
(Lifting Strenght Hax?)

Hax's that take LS into consideration, such as Telekinisis.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Telekinesis isn't a magical attack/bullet/blast that triggers invincibility frames, it's not really comparable.

So the argument is that only contact with magical attacks (Or bullets, as Flowey and the Library call them) triggers invincibility frames, right?

Ehhh, kinda inaccurate.
If you have a rapid-fire attack, and said attack damages a 9-A character, then that attack in particular will scale to 9-A, even if a singular attack doesn't.
Example being Luffy.

His punches and attacks are 7-C, but he can do Low 7-B damage with Gomu Gomu no Storm, which is literally just him punching in a rapid-fire.

That's... what?
Shouldn't the wording be along the lines of "9-A after several uses of Telekinesis" or something like that then?

TK isn't "more powerful" or "less powerful". Both are not even in the same field of comparison.

His magic bypasses durability, it doesn't have a established power level, so saying TK is more, less, or comparatively powerful is redudant.

Ok, I'll refrase:
If Sans telekinesis makes Frisk experience a higher number of [Insert your prefered unit of measurement of energy here] than his bullets, and both his telekinesis and his bullets ignore durability, why isn't his TK removing more units of HP per hit?

Again, I have to insist, Telekinesis is not an magical attack, a magical bullet, a magical energy beam, or projectile. These things have been shown to trigger INV frames, while Sans' attacks, bullets, and beams don't. Therefore it's dura neg hax, because his bullets are blatantly bypassing something other bullets aren't capable of.

We're comparing bullets to bullets here.

Now, with Telekinesis. Magic isn't being used at all in an offensive form. It's just physically throwing them into a wall, the game doesn't respond to this as a bullet coming into contact with you, it's not even registered as an attack, because it's literally just natural kinetic energy.

Sans' bullets, unlike other bullets, don't trigger INV frames due to hax.

Sans' telekinesis, much like other (scarce) situations of just physics being physics, do not trigger INV frames because the game itself doesn't trigger them.

And how would that even make sense? We have established, magic isn't being used to damage Frisk, it's just impact. How would one argue that Sans can slam someone and hurt them even though their durability should resist the impact? Unlike with the bullets, you cannot use magic to justify that.

Again, just to make sure of what you're saying: the argument is that only contact with bullets triggers invincibility frames, right?

 

[Newendigo]

Sans is rated 9-A with telekinesis for being able to harm Frisk with it.

So I'm wondering why his telekinesis is considered so much stronger than his other attacks when:
*Is done with magic like any of his other attacks (Unless the implication is that his telekinesis is not magic).
*It deals the same damage as any of his other attacks (Which is not a game mechanic, is actually aknowledged in the check option).

Dunno, there is not real power system in Undertale in which you can say that every attack scale to one another, specially with Sans's who main method of attack is vastly different from the other ones.

Your link is also dead.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

I see the image perfectly.

 

[Newendigo]

Well, I don't. If someone can't see something they can't analyze it.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Here:

Not sure why you couldn't see it.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

So the argument is that only contact with magical attacks (Or bullets, as Flowey and the Library call them) triggers invincibility frames, right?

Bullets, blasts, and other projectiles IIRC.
Do we have other instances where the INV frames are triggered by something?

That's... what?
Shouldn't the wording be along the lines of "9-A after several uses of Telekinesis" or something like that then? Ok, I'll refrase:
If Sans telekinesis makes Frisk experience a higher number of [Insert your prefered unit of measurement of energy here] than his bullets, and both his telekinesis and his bullets ignore durability, why isn't his TK removing more units of HP per hit?

Let's say "joules".

... Sans bullets don't make Frisk experience any amount of joules, they ignore their durability.
TK doesn't.

Both are not comparable.

Again, just to make sure of what you're saying: the argument is that only contact with bullets triggers invincibility frames, right?

Projectiles.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Bullets, blasts, and other projectiles IIRC.
Do we have other instances where the INV frames are triggered by something?

Yes, we do.

Let's say "joules".

... Sans bullets don't make Frisk experience any amount of joules, they ignore their durability.

I'm sorry, did you just say that Sans has an attack potency of 0 joules? What?

TK doesn't.

It does. You can see it.
Unless ignoring invincibility frames ISN'T ignoring durability.

Both are not comparable.

I'm not comparing attacks, I'm comparing the effects of attacks

 

[Newendigo]

Here:

Not sure why you couldn't see it.

So that is.

Well I'm not entirely sure, I guess they could scale. Tho it would have to be pointed out that Sans telekinesis's and subsequent slamming doesn't have any KR effect as it just conventional impact damage.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Yes, we do.

"Do we have instances of things other than projectiles triggering INV?"
"Yes, [shows two videos of projectiles triggering INV frames]"

Dante, that has to be a meme. Somehow I knew exactly what both were.

I'm sorry, did you just say that Sans has an attack potency of 0 joules? What?

Nah, I didn't say that.
I said the amount of joules behind Sans' attack are irrelevant (it's 300 joules, since he is 10-B), because it's not taken into consideration when damaging Frisk, because of dura neg.

It does. You can see it.
Unless ignoring invincibility frames ISN'T ignoring durability.

It doesn't.
Literally, it doesn't ignore invincibility frames, it never triggers then to begin with, it's not an attack, Frisk is just hitting a wall very hard. Much like what happened with Chara.

I'm not comparing attacks, I'm comparing the effects of attacks

Not comparable at all.

 

[Newendigo]

I think is better to call other people that know this but you guys aren't never going to reach an agreement.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

"Do we have instances of things other than projectiles triggering INV?"
"Yes, [shows two videos of projectiles triggering INV frames]"

Dante, that has to be a meme. Somehow I knew exactly what both were.

Buddy, you said:

Sans' telekinesis, much like other (scarce) situations of just physics being physics, do not trigger INV frames because the game itself doesn't trigger them.

And how would that even make sense? We have established, magic isn't being used to damage Frisk, it's just impact. How would one argue that Sans can slam someone and hurt them even though their durability should resist the impact? Unlike with the bullets, you cannot use magic to justify that.

AKA, impact against a physical object can't trigger invncibility frames. I showed you instances of impact against physical objects triggering invincibility frames.

Nah, I didn't say that.
I said the amount of joules behind Sans' attack are irrelevant (it's 300 joules, since he is 10-B), because it's not taken into consideration when damaging Frisk, because of dura neg.

Then it doesn't matter how much effort Sans puts into his attacks, he will always deal the same damage.

It doesn't.
Literally, it doesn't ignore invincibility frames, it never triggers then to begin with,

Pick one.
Does it respect invincibility frames or not?

it's not an attack, Frisk is just hitting a wall very hard. Much like what happened with Chara.

At the beginning of the game?
Was there an animated cutscene I didn't see where Chara's invincibility frames are not triggered?

Not comparable at all.

Damaging someone is not comparable with damaging someone?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Buddy, you said:
AKA, impact against a physical object can't trigger invncibility frames. I showed you instances of impact against physical objects triggering invincibility frames.

"impact against X",
You didn't show the SOUL being slammed into anything, you showed projectiles being thrown, and being treated as any other projectile. Lmfao.

Then it doesn't matter how much effort Sans puts into his attacks, he will always deal the same damage.

Congratulations, that's the right answer.

Pick one.
Does it respect invincibility frames or not?

The INV frames are not triggered by the SOUL being slammed into the battle box.

Damaging someone is not comparable with damaging someone?

Slamming someone is not the same as throwing a projectile, yes.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

"impact against X",
You didn't show the SOUL being slammed into anything, you showed projectiles being thrown, and being treated as any other projectile. Lmfao.

I like the implication that slamming someone against a wall would have a different result to slamming a wall against someone.

Congratulations, that's the right answer.

So the 9-A should be removed from Sans' profile.

The INV frames are not triggered by the SOUL being slammed into the battle box.

Well, I'm sure you have examples to back that up, right?

Slamming someone is not the same as throwing a projectile, yes.

Cool, I'm still not comparing the attacks, but it's effects.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I like the implication that slamming someone against a wall would have a different result to slamming a wall against someone.

In a game, yes, surely.
if the wall was a projectile.

So the 9-A should be removed from Sans' profile.

Nah, it's through telekinesis, not a magical attack.

Well, I'm sure you have examples to back that up, right?

Oh yeah, there was this one time with a battle against a skeleton, forgot his name though.

Cool, I'm still not comparing the attacks, but it's effects.

Cool, the effects are not comparable.


We're just going in circles here. TK is not bypassing durability, that doesn't even make sense.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

In a game, yes, surely.
if the wall was a projectile.

Do you undersand how invincibility frames work?
No, I don't mean in Undertale, I mean in videogames in general.

You get hit, your invincibility frames kick in. If something damages you, whatever it might be, your invincibility frames will be triggered.

If you want to claim that something that damages you wouldn't trigger your invincibility frames, you better have similar examples where something damages you without triggering invincibility frames.

Nah, it's through telekinesis, not a magical attack.

Pick one

Oh yeah, there was this one time with a battle against a skeleton, forgot his name though.

Your example of getting hit against a wall and your invincibility frames not working comes from a battle where there aren't invincibility frames to begin with.

Cool, the effects are not comparable.

Damaging someone is not comparable to damaging someone.

We're just going in circles here. TK is not bypassing durability, that doesn't even make sense.

"In fiction, use reality as a ruler, never as a rule."

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Do you undersand how invincibility frames work?
No, I don't mean in Undertale, I-

If you're not talking about Undertale specifically, then I don't care.

INV frames don't happen to all kinds of damage in Undertale. You specifically need to be hurt by an attack.
The "laws of physics" don't count as an attack.

Pick one

Why should I? Both don't oppose each other.
Telekinesis isn't a magical attack, it's a magical hax. Slamming someone is just KE.

Your example of getting hit against a wall and your invincibility frames not working comes from a battle where there aren't invincibility frames to begin with.

Because of Sans attacks being intangible. I don't think slamming someone into the wall counts as an "intangible attack that bypasses durability" though

Damaging someone is not comparable to damaging someone.

Boil down the details about how that damage came to be. It matters not.

"In fiction, use reality as a ruler, never as a rule."

There is no in-universe explanation, so you can't pull my own philosophy.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Wow, I feel bad.

Like, physically bad. I have a cold and my body is in pain, I'm in no condition to keep going in this thread for now.

Do we close it or what?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Wow, I feel bad.

Like, physically bad. I have a cold and my body is in pain, I'm in no condition to keep going in this thread for now.

Do we close it or what?

Oh! Please, go take care of your health, homie

You can leave it open, or close it, it's your decision, but take your time!

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Thank you.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Ok, I think I'm feeling better now.

If you're not talking about Undertale specifically, then I don't care.

INV frames don't happen to all kinds of damage in Undertale. You specifically need to be hurt by an attack.
The "laws of physics" don't count as an attack.

An attack is an action done with the intent of harming someone or something (Though not always). This is an attack, this is an attack, and this is an attack.

And even if you somehow argue that that last one shouldn't be considered an attack (Even though is one by definition), that description you showed isn't even talking about everything that can trigger your invincibility frames, hazards like the lasers in Hotland/CORE also trigger your invincibility frames.

Why should I? Both don't oppose each other.

You said that Sans exceted himself in order to harm Frisk with telekinesis, but you also agree that the damage Sans' deals wouldn't be affected by how much effort he puts into his attacks.

Telekinesis isn't a magical attack, it's a magical hax. Slamming someone is just KE.

Throwing anything with mass at anyone is KE, be it a spear, a knife, or... a bone.

Because of Sans attacks being intangible. I don't think slamming someone into the wall counts as an "intangible attack that bypasses durability" though

You're offering an explanation to how Sans ignores invincibility frames that doesn't exist.
Also, you're calling them intangible because they go through you and don't dissapear in contact? Because that's not excusive to Sans attacks.

Boil down the details about how that damage came to be. It matters not.

You're talking about cause, I'm talking about effect.
A blast of magical energy and slamming a child against a wall (The causes) are not equivalent in any way, and I agree.
However, dealing one point of damage without triggering invincibility frames (The effect) is something they can do, something you can compare, and something that is rated in two different ways in the same profile.

There is no in-universe explanation, so you can't pull my own philosophy.

Well, I agree.
There's no in universe explanation to how Sans ignores invincibility frames, therefore we can't say in which context it wouldn't work until we see it.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Ok, I think I'm feeling better now.

Welcome back!

An attack is an action done with the intent of harming someone or something (Though not always).

Not working.

This is an attack, this is an attack, and this is an attack.

And even if you somehow argue that that last one shouldn't be considered an attack (Even though is one by definition)

This is literally
"WeLl, AcTuALLy".

No, I know slamming someone into a wall is an attack in technical terms. I'm saying what the game sees as an attack, aka, a "bullet pattern", usually colored white, blue, or orange.
Those are attacks.
Slamming isn't an attack, in that sense.

all the examples you showed were portrayed as attacks, and are unrelated to slamming the SOUL.

You said that Sans exceted himself in order to harm Frisk with telekinesis, but you also agree that the damage Sans' deals wouldn't be affected by how much effort he puts into his attacks.

?
This is non-sense. Both quotes are talking about two different situations.

Yes, Sans put all his efforts into harming Frisk with Telekinesis, which doesn't bypass durability.
But he doesn't need to do that for any of his bones, or blasters, because they bypass durability.

Both affirmations can co-exists, as they're talking about totally different contexts. Will you address the arguments instead of saying "Well, you contradicted yourself"?

Throwing anything with mass at anyone is KE, be it a spear, a knife, or... a bone.

Magical Intangible Bone, Magical Spear, don't pull that shit.

The knife was treated as a bullet/attack.

You're offering an explanation to how Sans ignores invincibility frames that doesn't exist.
Also, you're calling them intangible because they go through you and don't dissapear in contact? Because that's not excusive to Sans attacks.

Slamming someone isn't magic, therefore Sans' hax shouldn't apply.
Done, are you satisfied? No? Too bad.

It's intangible because it's phasing through the SOUL and ignoring INV Frames. Yes, two consequences through the same effect.
And saying "Look!!!! It happens here too!!!!" isn't a counter.

You're talking about cause, I'm talking about effect.
A blast of magical energy and slamming a child against a wall (The causes) are not equivalent in any way, and I agree.
However, dealing one point of damage without triggering invincibility frames (The effect) is something they can do, something you can compare, and something that is rated in two different ways in the same profile.

No shit, Sherlock!
Both effects are caused by different things, and have different reasoning to why said effect happens.

A magical blast does 1 dmg per frame because Sans' magical ability to just shut down invisibility frames, and bypass them.

Slamming someone into a wall strong enough to do 1 dmg does one damage because it was strong enough to accomplish that, and it doesn't trigger invisibility frames because it isn't an attack/bullet. It cannot activate Sans' Karma because it literally isn't magic.

Well, I agree.
There's no in universe explanation to how Sans ignores invincibility frames, therefore we can't say in which context it wouldn't work until we see it.

Monsters have hax through magic, determination/SOUL Power. This is a constant in the universe, Sans' ability is absolutely a derivative of one of the two, as assuming he just has an ability from a power source never addressed is a much extraordinary claim, and has no support.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Not working.

???

This is literally
"WeLl, AcTuALLy".

No, I know slamming someone into a wall is an attack in technical terms.

"Technical"?
Something that meets the criteria to be considered something is that something.

I'm saying what the game sees as an attack, aka, a "bullet pattern", usually colored white, blue, or orange.
Those are attacks.
Slamming isn't an attack, in that sense.

all the examples you showed were portrayed as attacks, and are unrelated to slamming the SOUL.

At what point does the game say that an attack is exclusively harmful things contained within bullet patterns and nothing else?
Because last I checked, this is called an attack.

Sans put all his efforts into harming Frisk with Telekinesis, which doesn't bypass durability.
But he doesn't need to do that for any of his bones, or blasters, because they bypass durability.

Again, does harming someone without triggering their invincibility frames mean they are ignoring their durability or not? Because what I'm saying is that the same mechanic is interpreted in two different ways for no reason

Magical Intangible Bone, Magical Spear, don't pull that shit.

The knife was treated as a bullet/attack.

Yes I get that.
What I'm saying is: Sans can produce 9-A ammounts of KE by throwing a child against a wall using magic. Why can't he do the same while throwing bones using his magic?

Slamming someone isn't magic, therefore Sans' hax shouldn't apply.

Why? What statement do we have that says that's how Sans durability negation works?
As far as we know, it could be a status effect inducement and anything harmful to Frisk would ignore their durability.

Now, am I saying that that's how Sans durability negation works? No, I'm just saying that we don't know how it work, therefore we can't say where it wouldn't work.

It's intangible because it's phasing through the SOUL and ignoring INV Frames. Yes, two consequences through the same effect.
And saying "Look!!!! It happens here too!!!!" isn't a counter.

What I'm saying is, if other attacks also phase the soul without ignoring invincibility frames, then either Sans' attacks phasing the soul is not an indication of intangibility, or phasing the soul is irrelevant to ignoring invincibility frames and shouldn't even be taken into account

No shit, Sherlock!
Both effects are caused by different things, and have different reasoning to why said effect happens.

A magical blast does 1 dmg per frame because Sans' magical ability to just shut down invisibility frames, and bypass them.

Slamming someone into a wall strong enough to do 1 dmg does one damage because it was strong enough to accomplish that, and it doesn't trigger invisibility frames because it isn't an attack/bullet.

That last part.
Show me an instance of being slammed against a wall both dealing damage and not triggering invincibility frames, IN a context where you have invincibility frames.
On the other hand, if you want to argue that Sans' final rush is not an attack, show me an instance where you take damage from being slammed into a wall and someone or something specifies that that is indeed not an attack.

It cannot activate Sans' Karma because it literally isn't magic.

I thought we stablished that ignoring invincibility frames and karma were two different things.

Monsters have hax through magic, determination/SOUL Power. This is a constant in the universe, Sans' ability is absolutely a derivative of one of the two, as assuming he just has an ability from a power source never addressed is a much extraordinary claim, and has no support.

It would be if the instance we have of Sans damaging you with something that is not a magical attack didn't work under the same "No INV frames" mechanic, and if we didn't have to say that an attack is not an attack in order to justify it.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

???

I can't access the links.

"Technical"?
Something that meets the criteria to be considered something is that something.

Wow, it's almost there other contexts to certain words
Your lack of interpretation is honestly astounding.

Let me illustrate this for you.

It's like a turn-based RPG attack, you know, the ones you select in a menu.
If someone punches a character from a turn-based RPG in a cutscene, is that an attack in the context of the RPG? One that consumes mana, or a turn? Obviously not.
It's an attack on a literal context, but not in-game context.

Having to give you a basic English class here, Dante.

At what point does the game say that an attack is exclusively harmful things contained within bullet patterns and nothing else?
Because last I checked, this is called an attack.

Yes, the protagonist attacking is an attack, that's how RPGs works.
Enemy attacks are bullet patterns, that's what an Bullet Hell is, lmfao.

Again, does harming someone without triggering their invincibility frames mean they are ignoring their durability or not?

If it's done through a way the game usually sees as an attack yes. If you bypass INV frames with bullets, the only scenario where the game triggers them, then you are basically bypassing the mechanics.

But it's not if you,

attack in a way the mechanics don't account for, such as slamming some into the battle box for example.
or if you somehow do damage off-screen without triggering battle mode, (Which never happened, ig)

for no reason

Except the ones I gave.

Yes I get that.
What I'm saying is: Sans can produce 9-A ammounts of KE by throwing a child against a wall using magic. Why can't he do the same while throwing bones using his magic?

Sans doesn't procude the energy through magic. And he can't use telekinesis on his magical bones ("why????" Because he has never shown to do so).

Why? What statement do we have that says that's how Sans durability negation works?
As far as we know, it could be a status effect inducement and anything harmful to Frisk would ignore their durability.

Which would need to be accomplished through magic, as that's the UTverse's power system.
The same way a particular hax is usually done through chakra in Naruto, or Ki/Magic in DB unless the show implies otherwise.

Now, am I saying that that's how Sans durability negation works? No, I'm just saying that we don't know how it work, therefore we can't say where it wouldn't work.

"You have to prove a negative" is basically what you're saying.
Burden of proof is on you. An ability is accomplished through the game's power system.

Kinetic energy is not a magic attack.

What I'm saying is, if other attacks also phase the soul without ignoring invincibility frames.

OR!
And this might souns crazy.

The SOUL becomes intangible when it goes into INV frames!
The reason the attacks don't vanish is because their durable enough to keep going, lmao.

Show me an instance of being slammed against a wall both dealing damage and not triggering invincibility frames, IN a context where you have invincibility frames.

You realize you're the one making the extraordinary claim, right? You need to prove the non-magical/bullet-like attack would trigger INV frames in a bullet-hell game.

There isn't another instance where slamming the SOUL into the battle box happens (and it deals damage) in UT.

On the other hand, if you want to argue that Sans' final rush is not an attack--

Naaah, that's the fun part. I don't have to do that.
The same way I don't have to prove a cutscene punch is an attack in a RPG, I don't have to prove a non-bullet-like "attack" isn't being accounted for as an Attack in the bullet game.

I thought we stablished that ignoring invincibility frames and karma were two different things.

Where? You're acting like Karma can't be the cause of both.

It would be if the instance we have of Sans damaging you with something that is not a magical attack didn't work under the same "No INV frames" mechanic, and if we didn't have to say that an attack is not an attack in order to justify it.

???? This reply made zero sense, rephrase properly.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

As I was writting my response, I came to the conclusion I just don't care anymore.

I'm not "sad" or "frustrated", just... drained. I cannot bother to write down why I disagree with your explanations anymore.

I guess I'll just wait for more people to reply, and see of other people have the same problems as me and my doubts are validated, or if everyone else is just fine with the current state of Sans' page and I'll have to live with that.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

I can't access the links.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot.
I linked to the check stats of Greater Dog and Vulkin, showing that a monster can attack you without meaning to harm you.
I have no idea why people are having a hard time seeing the images, I'm just linking to the images shown in that blog that has all of Undertale's check stats.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Guys, you don't separate physicals from magic in AP

You do that for Striking Class

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Guys, you don't separate physicals from magic in AP

You do that for Striking Class

That's because his Magic is weaker than his Telekinesis. It specifically notes this in his Profile already.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

That's because his Magic is weaker than his Telekinesis. It specifically notes this in his Profile already.

Sans using magic to move a bone produces way less joules than Sans using magic to move a child.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Sans using magic bones via Bone Manipulation has less energy than a completely different hax that negates gravity and flings things as fast as his arm can move and therefore isn't scalable.

"That's crazy.", KT.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Sans using magic to move a bone produces way less joules than Sans using magic to move a child.

His Magic is Dura Neg, his Telekinesis is not. His Stats are literally the absolute lowest in the game, below even character's Frisk at the very start of the game can One-Shot. It's not that hard to figure out.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Guys, let me recap the arguments for why Sans' page is the way it is:

"Sans' telekinesis deals one point of damage like any of his other attacks and is also done with magic, why is it rated higher than his other attacks?"
"That's because Sans regular attacks ignore Frisk defense in order to hurt them (Which is represented as Frisk INV frames being ignored), while his telekinesis doesn't and is just that strong."
"But Sans' telekinesis also ignores INV frames, why isn't it considered to also ignore Frisk's defence?"
"That's because only attacks trigger INV frames and Sans' final rush is not an attack. An attack in Undertale is defined as a magical, white, blue, or orange projectile contained in a bullet pattern, meanwhile everything else that is also done by a monster in order to hurt you while your soul is inside the battle board (Like slamming your soul against a wall, which is a physical object) is not an attack [Citation Needed].
So while Sans attacking your soul while ignoring your INV frames are ignored is considered to be Sans ignoring your defense, Sans attacking your soul while ignoring your INV frames are ignored is not"
"But there are examples of physical things damaging the soul and triggering your INV frames, like Mad Dummy's knife or Photoshop Flowey's vines"
"Those also fall under the definition of an attack that I described prior, obviously impact against physical objects that damages you works under a different system than an impact against a physical object that damages you."

Now, I know I'm far from being the brightest person, but I think there's a big gap between me not understanding an explanation because I'm dumb, and someone making fun out of me.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Guys, you don't separate physicals from magic in AP

You do that for Striking Class

Also, not sure of how much sense makes separating physicals from magic with a race that is made out of magic.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Also, not sure of how much sense makes separating physicals from magic with a race that is made out of magic.

You're made out of water, does that mean a human using Water Manipulation should have their physicals scaled to it? Nah, that's terrible logic.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Also, not sure of how much sense makes separating physicals from magic with a race that is made out of magic.

Meh, that's just how I treat it, Attack Potency has no restrictions based on physicals since AP doesn't need to address specifically physicals

A dude who only shoots lasers can have fodder physicals and 6-B lasers and I would personally just rate his AP 6-B while notifying in SC and Durability that his physicals are fodder

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Meh, that's just how I treat it, Attack Potency has no restrictions based on physicals since AP doesn't need to address specifically physicals

A dude who only shoots lasers can have fodder physicals and 6-B lasers and I would personally just rate his AP 6-B while notifying in SC and Durability that his physicals are fodder

Sans' physicals are literally the worse in the verse, and his magic bypasses durability.

He also has magical telekinesis where he manipulates gravity and flings the target as fast as his hands can go. He can hurt a 9-A child with it, and Dante wants to scale his telekinesis to his other magic.