This thing I don't understand about Sans' AP

[Rodri_"Dante"]

You're made out of water, does that mean a human using Water Manipulation should have their physicals scaled to it? Nah, that's terrible logic.

But like, every example we have of a monster both using projectiles and physically attacking you has the monster deal about the same damage.

He also has magical telekinesis where he manipulates gravity and flings the target as fast as his hands can go. He can hurt a 9-A child with it, and Dante wants to scale his telekinesis to his other magic.

That's not my prefered solution.

What I want is for Sans' page to take an interpretation for him dealing 1 point of damage to Frisk while ignoring their INV frames and stick to it. If that means downgrading his AP via TK or upgrading his regular attacks is something up to a hypotetical CRT.

If doing that proves to be too dificult, I want a justification for Sans page being the way it is that isn't "Sans attacking your soul while ignoring your INV frames are ignored is considered to be Sans ignoring your defense, meanwhile Sans attacking your soul while ignoring your INV frames are ignored is not and works under completly different mechanics."

Gravity Manipulation would be a good explanation as damage dealt using it doesn't have anything to do with your AP, but:
1) It shouldn't be 9-A but instead vary depend on the mass of the target.
2) It still doesn't explain why Sans' page considers him ignoring INV frames to mean two different things at the same time.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

I think I might have found a solution for this. Let's talk game mechanics and interpretation said mechanics:

When in combat, Frisk loses HP when coming into contact with an attack, and they can also lose HP by consuming a Bad Memory. Consuming said object works under completly different rules than receiving an attack, yet both have a common denominator (Frisk losses HP) which is the abstract representation of something that happens in both instances (Frisk got hurt).

Other example would be Frisk attack being increased: It can happen in different ways, like them equipping a stronger weapon or by consuming a Legendary Hero in combat. Consuming said item works under different rules than equiping a stronger weapon, yet both have a common denominator (Frisk's attack is raised) which is the abstract representation of something that happens in both instances (Frisk's AP increased).

Now let's examinate Sans' regular attacks against his final rush. Regardless of how you think they work, you cannot deny their common denominator (Frisk receives 1 point of damage and their INV frames are ignored). The obvious question here is: Why is the same mechanic receiving two different interpretations at the same time?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Now let's examinate Sans' regular attacks against his final rush. Regardless of how you think they work, you cannot deny their common denominator (Frisk receives 1 point of damage and their INV frames are ignored). The obvious question here is: Why is the same mechanic receiving two different interpretations at the same time?

Because one ignores INV frames through bullets, which are shown to trigger said INV frames.

The other "ignores/doesn't trigger" INV frames through a completely abnormal way of damaging the SOUL, which we can't say for certain would even trigger said INV frames in the first place.

Your bad memory example proves that simply taking damage from something unusual (that's not accounted as a bullet) doesn't trigger INV frames, which puts the burden of proof on your side.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Because one ignores INV frames through bullets, which are shown to trigger said INV frames.

The other "ignores/doesn't trigger" INV frames through a completely abnormal way of damaging the SOUL, which we can't say for certain would even trigger said INV frames in the first place.

I didn't ask for the mechanics behind it, I'm asking why it means different things

Your bad memory example proves that simply taking damage from something unusual (that's not accounted as a bullet) doesn't trigger INV frames, which puts the burden of proof on your side.

You cannot consume Bad Memory in a context where INV frames would be useful, so no need to code it to trigger them.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I didn't ask for the mechanics behind it, I'm asking why it means different things

Because it's done through different means, mechanically. (Game Mech is canon in Undertale).

INV negation through bullets is Dura Neg because mechanically the game is coded to trigger them.

We cannot say that to any other type of damage.

You cannot consume Bad Memory in a context where INV frames would be useful, so no need to code it to trigger them.

Why would Toby code INV frames for a kind of damage that's used in one fight, too?

We cannot be certain.

Like, it's pretty ambiguous, and damaging through slamming isn't magic, so it wouldn't make sense to trigger Sans' magical ability.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Because it's done through different means, mechanically. (Game Mech is canon in Undertale).

INV negation through bullets is Dura Neg because mechanically the game is coded to trigger them.

We cannot say that to any other type of damage.

You don't seem to understand what I'm asking.
There ARE cases were a singular mechanic can be used to represent different things.

Can't think of one for Undertale, so let's go with... Sonic, I guess.
In Sonic games, losing rings is the representation of your character being hurt, but when you become Super your loss of rings stops meaning that you're being hurt, but rather that your Super form is running out.
Why do we know that losing rings is not hurting our character when they are super? Because Sonic games emphasize your character being hurt with facial expressions and/or cries of pain, which are not present while being Super even though you're losing rings.

So yes, I get that you're arguing for those 2 attacks to work under different mechanical rules. The question is: what reason is there for their shared mechanic to MEAN different things? NOT the mechanic explanation of how they do what they do, but the... I guess "lore-wise" difference between those attacks that lets you say "This mechanic is the abstract representation of this thing, but in this context it stops meaning that".

Why would Toby code INV frames for a kind of damage that's used in one fight, too?

We cannot be certain.

I think the better question is "Why would Toby Fox bother to give different coding to two attacks happening in the same context (A monster hurts you while your soul is contained in the battle board)?". Is not like having your INV frames triggered in that particular attack would break the internal logic or the lore of the game.

Like, it's pretty ambiguous, and damaging through slamming isn't magic, so it wouldn't make sense to trigger Sans' magical ability.

You're using magic to explain the only thing that Sans attacks don't have in common to other magic attacks.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

You don't seem to understand what I'm asking.
There ARE cases were a singular mechanic can be used to represent different things.

Your entire text is based on a faulty assumption, and false equivalency, you're not a programmer. So I will simply ignore this useless wall of text.

The code isn't simply
If HP < X
then "INV_F" = True

It has a whole code for hitboxes interacting and resulting in the damage, and the INV being a trigger (it has a whole-ass value for it)

so yes, Slamming triggering INV frames would need to be coded in.


Sans Telekinesis don't bypass durability and don't scale to other magic, for the love of god.

You don't have a question, you're looking for a change because you simply disagree with the rating. You need EVIDENCE for these claims, because you can't just say

"Hurr durr, slamming bypasses INV frames" when you literally don't ******* know that. INV frames are triggered by hitboxes and bullets, that's LITERALLY THE ONLY INSTANCE WHERE THAT HAPPENS.


Slamming a child at 9-A doesn't mean your magic bones are 9-A (and this creates circular scaling)
Slamming a child doesn't trigger dura neg hax, that makes no ******* sense and it's not implied in the game.


That's final. Leave Undertale alone.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Ok, if that's how you wanna do things, at least answer this:

During Sans final rush, your INV frames don't trigger. In that context, what does "your INV frames not triggering" mean?

 

[Crabwhale]

Btw I was asked to close this thread.