So... let's talk about Sans

[JustANormalLemon]

Well, this is more focused on Sans battles. Beacuse I just noticed a thing

So, sinse undertale magic "Dura negation" has been extremely nerfed to the point of acting like regular atacks sans keept a form of Durability negation trough karma

But there is a big problem with that... Karma can't kill by It self

KARMA cannot exceed 40 and also cannot cause the protagonist's HP to fall below one. The more KARMA damage is built up, the faster it drains

So even trough Sans can do massive damage with Karma, he cannot use It to kill

And the problem with that? Sinse undertale magic now need to actually be able to damage the oponent like any regular atack Sans should be acctually unable to finish any of his targets trough Karma usage

So every battle sans fought against foes in much bigger AP levels are actually stomps as Sans would never be able to finish It's oponents

Another thing, Karma by It self takes long to damage thanks to the nature of doing damage overtime, sans atacks in game are "powerfull" thanks to It's habilit to do damage every frame the player is inside them

But against oponents that are... for exemple tier 6, sans wouldn't even be able to damage them with It's chiping damage

So, basically, all the sans battled that he eon trough ignoring conventional durability are really wrong

Even if the fact Karma can't kill be considered fame mechanics, the fact It takes long to do damage and It can only be go to "40" at maximun means sans wouldn't be able to take out most oponents before they become able to actually kill him

Freeza battle would be a great exemple, as he could just blow up the planet to deal with sans insitinctive reactions

In other words... We where wrong about Sans all along

Any way, I'm open to be proved wrong trough

 

[Comiphorous]

You got the reason why sans wasn't effected in the first place wrong. Karma isn't the reason he keeps full dura neg, it's the fact he ignores items that raise your defense no matter what, karma is just soul poison he inflicts with his attacks, the attacks themselves still ignore the durability of frisk regardless what defensive items they may be using.

he can, however, still hit physical things like flowey as he was able to kill them despite lacking a soul.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

You got the reason why sans wasn't effected in the first place wrong. Karma isn't the reason he keeps full dura neg, it's the fact he ignores items that raise your defense no matter what, karma is just soul poison he inflicts with his attacks, the attacks themselves still ignore the durability of frisk regardless what defensive items they may be using.

Wouldn't this be ignoring armor?

And ofcourse his normal atacks don't take frisk armour into account, the minimun damage is 1, It can't go lower no matter how much armor ou got

 

[StrymULTRA]

KARMA is not durability negation ONLY because of the poison effect, but because it ignores completely the DEF boost and inflicts the same damage whenever your DEF is 0, 4, 20, 99 or whatever else.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

KARMA is not durability negation ONLY because of the poison effect, but because it ignores completely the DEF boost and inflicts the same damage whenever your DEF is 0, 4, 20, 99 or whatever else.

Ye, 1 damage... the lower the damage can go anyway?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ye, 1 damage... the lower the damage can go anyway?

No, it's dura neg because thanks to the poison effect it always deals the same amount of damage.

Plus non-UT SOULs unless they have feats of resisting direct attacks they're assumed to have 20 HPs because of that being the baseline human SOUL (I mean, the peak DT Frisk with 2-B durability has still 20 HP lol).

 

[JustANormalLemon]

No, it's dura neg because thanks to the poison effect it always deals the same amount of damage.

Plus non-UT SOULs unless they have feats of resisting direct attacks they're assumed to have 20 HPs because of that being the baseline human SOUL (I mean, the peak DT Frisk with 2-B durability has still 20 HP lol).

1- so the karma is what makes It dura negate

2- This was disconsidered some time ago in a CRT

As long sans do 1 damage, this should be considered game mechanics sinse damage can't go lower (with the exeption of asriel dremure god of hyper death boss fight, but It's another thing entirely)

 

[StrymULTRA]

1- so the karma is what makes It dura negate

Yes?

2- This was disconsidered some time ago in a CRT

Where? Because mere AP/Dura increase does not make the HPs higher in Undertale, so it shouldn't be either for other verses.

As long sans do 1 damage, this should be considered game mechanics sinse damage can't go lower (with the exeption of asriel dremure god of hyper death boss fight, but It's another thing entirely)

You know, the whole point of Sans' fight it's that he always ignores DEF, no matter what. In the same game Frisk cannot deal damage to Mettaton or Asriel right because their DEF is too high, meaning that if it's not able to deal 1 damage, then it's 0 damage, but Sans just wouldn't care and still deals his usual 1 damage per frame, right because of the KR thing.

Meaning that Sans should always be able to deal 1 damage, no matter what, right because of his KR ignoring DEF completely. This is not like the normal monsters' magic where they have to also deal with the physical durability in order to deal damage, because the KR ignores it completely and just depletes the HP of the SOUL.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Where? Because mere AP/Dura increase does not make the HPs higher in Undertale, so it shouldn't be either for other verses.

That was some time ago, I can try fiding It

Yes?

So It's the thing that can't kill the reason he can negate dura

You know, the whole point of Sans' fight it's that he always ignores DEF, no matter what. In the same game Frisk cannot deal damage to Mettaton or Asriel right because their DEF is too high, meaning that if it's not able to deal 1 damage, then it's 0 damage, but Sans just wouldn't care and still deals his usual 1 damage per frame, right because of the KR thing.

there is a big gap betwing 999 defense and 99 defense from the the locket, right.

Do "one damage" was also discarded as a scaling for deltarune chapter 1 characters from chapter 2 before we knew Jevil beated up spamton.

any way, I really don't belive doing 1 damage could be considered "ignore conventional dura" in the context of undertale

 

[StrymULTRA]

So It's the thing that can't kill the reason he can negate dura

No because it still attacks the SOUL which is still vulnerable to Sans' attacks.

there is a big gap betwing 999 defense and 99 defense from the the locket, right.

I was talking about the 255 from MTT here.

Do "one damage" was also discarded as a scaling for deltarune chapter 1 characters from chapter 2 before we knew Jevil beated up spamton.

Deltarune =/= Undertale. They may be made from the same person but there's no evidence they work the same.

any way, I really don't belive doing 1 damage could be considered "ignore conventional dura" in the context of undertale

Actually it does. Pokémon's Dragon Rage is counted as Dura Neg as it always deals 40 HPs no matter what. If in Undertale it's canon that high enough DEF can completely null damage, but Sans just ignores said statistic, then is dura neg.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Actually it does. Pokémon's Dragon Rage is counted as Dura Neg as it always deals 40 HPs no matter what. If in Undertale it's canon that high enough DEF can completely null damage, but Sans just ignores said statistic, then is dura neg.

idk about the rest but this isn't a good comparision, unless monsters can deal zero damage to you in certain circunstances, this is more akin to lvl 1 pokémon still dealing 1 damage to lvl 100 pokémon

 

[StrymULTRA]

idk about the rest but this isn't a good comparision, unless monsters can deal zero damage to you in certain circunstances, this is more akin to lvl 1 pokémon still dealing 1 damage to lvl 100 pokémon

I mean that Sans is straight up said that he'll deal just a single damage, and that KR will always guarantee it.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Actually it does. Pokémon's Dragon Rage is counted as Dura Neg as it always deals 40 HPs no matter what. If in Undertale it's canon that high enough DEF can completely null damage, but Sans just ignores said statistic, then is dura neg.

1- Pokemon =/= just what you just said about deltarune

2- Even if was, pokemon has a minum possible damge of 1, so always doing 40 would indead be dura negation

I was talking about the 255 from MTT here.

The gap is still much higher them 1 to 99

No because it still attacks the SOUL which is still vulnerable to Sans' attacks.

As I said, I will find the CRT. but keep in mind is the same that putted the quote bellow into basically all monsters profiles

Limited Durability Negation (Monster magic attacks the SOUL but is still affected by conventional durability)

That I just notice also links to the Thread this came from :V

I mean that Sans is straight up said that he'll deal just a single damage, and that KR will always guarantee it.

1- Sans also knows he is in a game and that the Game mechanics affect how the fight will play out, so him using the game mechanics to his advantage isn't surprising

2- Gerson also say that he know the player can't atack him inside the shop and the likes of Bratty and Catty still runned away, so It seens a clear case of Game mechancs x Cannon in undertale sinse both pass trough one another so much

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

sans dura neg comes from him ignoring frames pretty sure

 

[JustANormalLemon]

sans dura neg comes from him ignoring frames pretty sure

Nah, this is him ignoring game rules so his atacks don't disapear and the player has no invulnerability frames

Sans dealing damage every frame is like 100.000 ants vs a human, they are much waker but the human will be overwhelmed pretty fast

 

[JustANormalLemon]

What I mean is, sans probable could take the likes of... IDK a tier 8-B, maybe a tier high 8-A at best with his chip damage, but all his battles against tier 2 character? tier 3? tier 4? etc? probable a bit of a strech, I would say the best you can argue is that sans could weeken them enough and use social influence so they give up on the fight, but as It stand, sans probable would be destroyed by basically every one of the fights he was putted against character a lot above his tier

 

[StrymULTRA]

What I mean is, sans probable could take the likes of... IDK a tier 8-B, maybe a tier high 8-A at best with his chip damage, but all his battles against tier 2 character? tier 3? tier 4? etc? probable a bit of a strech, I would say the best you can argue is that sans could weeken them enough and use social influence so they give up on the fight, but as It stand, sans probable would be destroyed by basically every one of the fights he was putted against character a lot above his tier

This is literally just a whole fuckton of assumption with 0 basis with only argument from incredulity.

Plus you forget that Sans' whole reason behind dura neg is not just SOUL attacks, but the fact that he can damage stack, making the "death from a million cuts" logic on a spiritual level.

You lack proof of KR being limited from the DEF stat unlike the other monsters, given that what we have in hand show him just ignoring it.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

This is literally just a whole fuckton of assumption with 0 basis with only argument from incredulity.

Plus you forget that Sans' whole reason behind dura neg is not just SOUL attacks, but the fact that he can damage stack, making the "death from a million cuts" logic on a spiritual level.

You lack proof of KR being limited from the DEF stat unlike the other monsters, given that what we have in hand show him just ignoring it.

Well them, I will sound dumb but could you list the reasons sans should keep his dura negating again? In a list please

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well them, I will sound dumb but could you list the reasons sans should keep his dura negating again? In a list please

You're making weird assumptions because of KR dealing max 40 HP of damage, when HPs were never a thing for ATK/DEF, as shown with Frisk who increases their stats depending on how much DT they have, but always having 20 HPs.

Second, Sans' KR whole thing is to completely ignore the DEF stats, and it has never shown to decrease its damage depending on the DEF raise. And in the canon, high enough DEF can lower the damage to the point that if it's high enough, it's impossible to deal damage against. Frisk has 0 DEF?

It kills ya instantly at 1st attack.

Frisk has 20 DEF?

Same.

Frisk has 99 DEF?

Same.

It's whole purpose is to completely ignore the DEF and inflict the same stacked damage no matter what. It's shown to act as such, it has no anti feats, and has a mechanic that justifies it, meaning you cannot say it's NLF.

 

[ShionAH]

Sans deals 1 damage no matter what ignores durability, ignores inv frames, poisons the SOUL

 

[ShionAH]

he can, however, still hit physical things like flowey as he was able to kill them despite lacking a soul.

He uses KARMA for that btw which is what we accept rn

 

[JustANormalLemon]

I'm getting more confused

 

[ShionAH]

I'm getting more confused

Karma lets Sans negate durability, ignore invicibility frames, poison the soul and the body

So yes Sans has busted dura neg in both spiritual and physical level

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Karma lets Sans negate durability, ignore invicibility frames, poison the soul and the body

So yes Sans has busted dura neg in both spiritual and physical level

Karma can't kill trough, that's the point of the Thread

It takes time to drain helth and can't go under one by It self

 

[ShionAH]

Karma can't kill trough, that's the point of the Thread

It takes time to drain helth and can't go under one by It self

Karmas poison cannot kill but Karma can still kill on its own with the durability neg. You do know the poison goes fast when you are hit right also what are we even discussing rn what do you want to know

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Karmas poison cannot kill but Karma can still kill on its own with the durability neg. You do know the poison goes fast when you are hit right also what are we even discussing rn what do you want to know

Just tring to understand

Simple, if sans fight someone with 2-A dura for exemple, he could do a lot of damage, but couldn't finish the target off

 

[ShionAH]

Just tring to understand

Simple, if sans fight someone with 2-A dura for exemple, he could do a lot of damage, but couldn't finish the target off

Why tf would he not be able to finish them off? You do know he literally defeats frisk (9-A) while Sans is 9-B right??

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Why tf would he not be able to finish them off? You do know he literally defeats frisk (9-A) while Sans is 9-B right??

I just think 9-B to 9-A is a bit of a lower diference them 9-B to... Low 2-C for exemple

 

[StrymULTRA]

I just think 9-B to 9-A is a bit of a lower diference them 9-B to... Low 2-C for exemple

And? A 9-B still cannot harm a 9-A normally.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

And? A 9-B still cannot harm a 9-A normally.

Not necessaraly

 

[StrymULTRA]

Plus your point about it being unable to kill the target is dumb. How would Sans be even able to kill us?

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Plus your point about it being unable to kill the target is dumb. How would Sans be even able to kill us?

Us? any way, as I said, a 9-B atack should be able to damage a 9-A oponent if is the same atack hitting multiple times in the same spot, as you said prior, chip damage

but against someone that makes the AP gap this big... no, It wouldn't work unless he has ages to keep hitting

Unless we are considering that every character that has no feats of taking damage directly to their soul has a 9-B dura as well as a Baseline

 

[StrymULTRA]

Us? any way, as I said, a 9-B atack should be able to damage a 9-A oponent if is the same atack hitting multiple times in the same spot, as you said prior, chip damage

but against someone that makes the AP gap this big... no, It wouldn't work unless he has ages to keep hitting

Based on what? This stems off argument of incredulity like a lot.

We already shown you that it completely ignores whatever durability increase you get.

Unless we are considering that every character that has no feats of taking damage directly to their soul has a 9-B dura as well as a Baseline

I mean, why would their SOUL be comparable to their physical body without feats? (Not that it matters, as Sans still treats it as having 9-B dura at max).

 

[Greatsage13th]

Disagree

 

[QrowBarr]

Hard disagree. OP assumes that people tiers above Sans can somehow tank his attacks without soulhax resistance, which is ridiculous and pretty funny.

Besides, KR ignores physical def anyway, so that's proof enough

 

[JustANormalLemon]

We already shown you that it completely ignores whatever durability increase you get.

Nah, as I still unconvinced about the 1 damage not beingh a game mechanics thing

Hard disagree. OP assumes that people tiers above Sans can somehow tank his attacks without soulhax resistance, which is ridiculous and pretty funny.

Besides, KR ignores physical def anyway, so that's proof enough

1-Accepted CRT that heavely nerfed how the "ignora conventional durability trough soul hax" stuff

2-Poison that does damage over time, and can't bringh firsk under 1 HP

 

[StrymULTRA]

2-Poison that does damage over time, and can't bringh firsk under 1 HP

Are you sure about that?

1-Accepted CRT that heavely nerfed how the "ignora conventional durability trough soul hax" stuff

Same CRT says that Sans won't be affected because of his reason for Dura Neg being way different than the other monsters.

 

[QrowBarr]

1-Accepted CRT that heavely nerfed how the "ignora conventional durability trough soul hax" stuff

Only because of how physical items/def can somewhat defend it, which Sans completely and utterly ignores

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Are you sure about that?

Same CRT says that Sans won't be affected because of his reason for Dura Neg being way different than the other monsters.

Only because of how physical items/def can somewhat defend it, which Sans completely and utterly ignores

Ye ye ye, that's why I made this CRT

Okay, let's see if I understood

San's only deal 1 damage by It self

Karma drains damage over time

Sans apply Karma with every atack

Beingh hitted with Karma make It drains much faster

Karma by It self can't make someone go under 1 hp

I belive thouse are correct

Now here is the problem

We are considering the fact sans atacks do 1 damage always means It does dura negation, even trough It seens a lot more like Game mechanics, after all this is the minimun amount of damage a monster can do to the player.

Counter arguments of this are, No damage is a thing against monters like MTT

If high enough defense can make you do take no damage, sans beingh able to do 1 damage against someone with 99 defense should be dura negation

but here is the problem, whem we get to fight Mettaton, the most damage we can have is 12 with the empty gum, and mettaton box form has 225 defense, so the diference between Frisk damage and mettaton defense is a 213 gap

While for the sans 1 damage and frisk 99 defense with the lock, It's a only a 98 gap

Mettaton gap is more them twice the size of the gap between sans and frisk gap, It's to big for we to say "It would do no damage"

Okay, I read here something about "Karma also increase sans damage" that I honestly didn't understanted much and couldn't find enything on the undertale wiki about sans base damage beingh increased by Karma, could only find at best that the more Karma the player has, the faster It drains

 

[StrymULTRA]

We are considering the fact sans atacks do 1 damage always means It does dura negation, even trough It seens a lot more like Game mechanics, after all this is the minimun amount of damage a monster can do to the player.

Game Mechanics in Undertale

Oh good ******* lord...

but here is the problem, whem we get to fight Mettaton, the most damage we can have is 12 with the empty gum, and mettaton box form has 225 defense, so the diference between Frisk damage and mettaton defense is a 213 gap

While for the sans 1 damage and frisk 99 defense with the lock, It's a only a 98 gap

Mettaton gap is more them twice the size of the gap between sans and frisk gap, It's to big for we to say "It would do no damage"

Can you prove me that Sans wouldn't be able to damage MTT? Because he's shown to deal the same damage through KR whenever your DEF is 0 or 99 with no reduction.