About Sans Law Manipulation... (Potential downgrade.)

[Magicomethkuon]

Agree: 9 (7 users, 2 staff) @ShionAH , @Serlock_Holmes , @Planck69 (Staff vote), @XxZetsuxX (Disagreement at first, later conceded) , @Lou_change , @Hypertornado099, @ImmortalDread , @Adem_Warlock69, @Dereck03 (Staff vote)
Disagree:
Neutral:

Think it lacks substantial evidence to be considered law manipulation.

Limited Law Manipulation (Over the course of his battle with Chara, Sans has been shown to break and manipulate the battle mechanics of the Undertale world. Some examples are:

I'd like to go over a few.

Attacking while the player is on the menu,

No evidence for this to be law manipulation and not Sans attacking Chara while they are checking something in the middle of battle. There are no mentions of Sans messing with the interface during this attack that I remember, what the system does say is that it's not the best time to be checking on things or reading. Ergo, Sans is not giving Chara breathing room.

being the only monster that actually starts the battle with his turn,

This is just Sans being faster. Over many attempts, Chara makes up for their problems with Sans's attacks by predicting what they'll be like. Trial and error, save scumming. Nothing in the source material suggests that Sans has a special ability that allows him to always be the first to attack no matter the opponent.

making an unavoidable attack after Chara spares him,

Here Chara dropped their guard to spare him. This is no different from monsters being one-shotted after dropping their guard with no chance of fighting back, if the player chooses to attack instead of sparing.

manipulating the fight box to make it longer,

Sans attacking in a wider range...he's not even the only one who does it in the game. If this is enough to qualify for Law Manipulation, Ms. Muffet also gets it when it is just a way to show something bigger, like her pet, is coming. The game mechanics standards are being blatantly handwaved here.

and infinitely extending his turn, making the opponent unable to attack him given it's not their turn yet.[1]

The only one that has sufficient evidence and in-game acknowledgment to support it.
After much deliberation in the thread, the consensus for this is Combat-Applicable 4th Wall Breaking. If other updates happen, I will include.

If there is more evidence to this matter, I think it's high time that it's brought and indexed to his profile as well. Otherwise, with the exception of the infinite extension of his turn, none of these abilities should have the law manipulation green.

 

[ShionAH]

Those are only for supporting lol

The only one that can be used in combat is the infinite turn thing

 

[XxZetsuxX]

No evidence for this to be law manipulation and not Sans attacking Chara while they are checking something in the middle of battle. There are no mentions of Sans messing with the interface during this attack that I remember, what the system does say is that it's not the best time to be checking on things or reading. Ergo, Sans is not giving Chara breathing room.

Asgore can break the buttons, Sans can attack while the player is still choosing and Asriel can break the buttons too while others can't

Otherwise they would have done it

This is just Sans being faster. Over many attempts, Chara makes up for their problems with Sans's attacks by predicting what they'll be like. Trial and error, save scumming. Nothing in the source material suggests that Sans has a special ability that allows him to always be the first to attack no matter the opponent.

Toriel and other monsters are faster than Frisk LV1 but you don't see them attacking first, Do you?

Sans attacking in a wider range...he's not even the only one who does it in the game. If this is enough to qualify for Law Manipulation, Ms. Muffet also gets it when it is just a way to show something bigger, like her pet, is coming. The game mechanics standards are being blatantly handwaved here.

I'm suprised she doesn't have it XD

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Asgore can break the buttons, Sans can attack while the player is still choosing and Asriel can break the buttons too while others can't

It's cool that Asgore can break the Spare button, but Sans can't get other people's feats on his profile. And I don't even need to elaborate on Asriel who at that point had every other soul in the entire franchise at his command.

Already covered Sans attacking while the player is on the menu in the OP. Very straightforward case of Sans simply attacking while Chara is trying to do something else in the fight.

While others can't, otherwise others would have done it

The same monsters who treat battle the same way as sending a gift card like that one in Snowdin says, explain their powers like Papyrus, give Frisk a spear to defend themselves like Undyne, fight for entertainment and the ratings like Mettaton, don't have their heart in it like Napstablook, don't want to fight you like Toriel, among many other examples and then are considered inferior to humans multiple times over throughout the entire game, being fodderized in the geno route time and again. They wouldn't be able to be giving Frisk, let alone Chara, no room for breathing. A level 1 Frisk can defeat Asgore in battle. It's not even a contest.

More strange is to arbitrarily qualify something like Sans having an attack that threatens you at any moment in battle like sudden Law hax all on one's own. It's an immense logical leap without grounds to solidify what it is. This is why the purpose of the thread was also asking for better evidence, because so far all I see are interpretations that are far too deep in Sans's favor. Taking everything that he does as complex hax when the feats aren't nearly that solid.

Toriel and other monsters are faster than Frisk LV1 but you don't see them attacking first, Do you?

I have no idea where this about Toriel and other monsters being faster than Frisk is coming from. Humans are superior to monsters in every way, something that plot never gets tired of talking about. I don't see them attacking first because they're inferior. This is once again falling into territory of claiming things with no evidence to back it up. Sans catches Chara by surprise and has multiple evidences in battle that he somehow is faster than Chara, a gap that they need to bridge with trial and error predictions.

I'm suprised she doesn't have it XD

To claim that Muffet should get law manipulation because the game needs to extend the window to show us her pet coming is a very wrong statement. Please re-consider your standards for accepting hax to any fictional medium.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

It's cool that Asgore can break the Spare button, but Sans can't get other people's feats on his profile. And I don't even need to elaborate on Asriel who at that point had every other soul in the entire franchise at his command.

Just being able to attack in the menu to me is already considered law hax

Already covered Sans attacking while the player is on the menu in the OP. Very straightforward case of Sans simply attacking while Chara is trying to do something else in the fight.

Still falls under law hax to me being able to attack out of your turn in a turn based RPG with they being able canon since characters can interact with the menu

The same monsters who treat battle the same way as sending a gift card like that one in Snowdin says, explain their powers like Papyrus, give Frisk a spear to defend themselves like Undyne, fight for entertainment and the ratings like Mettaton, don't have their heart in it like Napstablook, don't want to fight you like Toriel, among many other examples and then are considered inferior to humans multiple times over throughout the entire game, being fodderized in the geno route time and again. They wouldn't be able to be giving Frisk, let alone Chara, no room for breathing. A level 1 Frisk can defeat Asgore in battle. It's not even a contest.

More strange is to arbitrarily qualify something like Sans having an attack that threatens you at any moment in battle like sudden Law hax all on one's own. It's an immense logical leap without grounds to solidify what it is. This is why the purpose of the thread was also asking for better evidence, because so far all I see are interpretations that are far too deep in Sans's favor. Taking everything that he does a complex hax when the feats aren't nearly that solid.

The battle box is a canon thing based on what i said above

I have no idea where this about Toriel and other monsters being faster than Frisk is coming from. Humans are superior to monsters in every way, something that plot never gets tired of talking about. I don't see them attacking first because they're inferior. This is once again falling into territory of claiming things with no evidence to back it up. Sans catches Chara by surprise and has multiple evidences in battle that he somehow is faster than Chara, a gap that they need to bridge with trial and error predictions.

Toriel is hypersonic while Frisk with minimal DT is subsonic+ and some monsters are supersonic+

Yet Frisk attacks first, Not because humans are stronger, Sans wouldn't attack first based on your logic

To claim that Muffet should get law manipulation because the game needs to extend the window to show us her pet coming is a very wrong statement. Please re-consider your standards for accepting hax to any fictional medium.

What i said above

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Just being able to attack in the menu to me is already considered law hax

Still falls under law hax to me being able to attack out of your turn in a turn based RPG with they being able canon since characters can interact with the menu

The battle box is a canon thing based on what i said above

Toriel is hypersonic while Frisk with minimal DT is subsonic+ and some monsters are supersonic+

Yet Frisk attacks first, Not because they are stronger, Sans wouldn't attack first based on your logic

What i said above

It is not. Not when there is no indication in the source material of any sort to support that, and it is all perfectly explained with normal feats and game mechanics. With enough imagination and disregard for evidence to back it up, I could make an argument for those sorts of attacks being nearly anything in the index of powers that these forums have to offer.

Look, you can tell me that you still believe it falls under law hax as many times as you wish, but it doesn't change that no evidence to it is being brought to the table. And let me repeat this. Other character's feats don't fall under Sans's profile.

And one more thing. When first meeting Flowey, the player enters the system's battle window while still talking Flowey proceeds to explain to Frisk about the bullets friendliness pellets and Flowey very much gets the first turn because Frisk wasn't expecting a fight to begin with. And Toriel burns him away from outside the screen without even being there, by throwing a fireball from afar. So yeah. Another proof that this has nothing to do with some never spoken of absolute law of the world that no matter what, Frisk always attacks first and Sans defies that.

It literally is just who attacks first.
Don't equate strength to speed and hax. And Toriel was testing Frisk. Toriel doesn't even kill Frisk in that fight no matter what. This is not hard to conclude. And there is never any given statement in the game that Frisk was at 0 determination through each of these fights instead of, you know, some determination level to match the monsters. Which they reacted to. And defeated.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Jesus christ i'm bad at debating, You win, No need to go overkill against me

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I completely agree. Sans needs some fixing.

 

[Planck69]

Other than the infinite turn, which feels a little dubious but I'll digress, I agree with the OP that the rest don't really have any actual lore or in-game indicators of being law manipulation and seem closer to stylised utilisation of the game mechanics and HUD in the fight than anything.

 

[ShionAH]

Other than the infinite turn, which feels a little dubious but I'll digress, I agree with the OP that the rest don't really have any actual lore or in-game indicators of being law manipulation and seem closer to stylised utilisation of the game mechanics and HUD in the fight than anything.

so we are gonna remove the supporting evidence?

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Other than the infinite turn, which feels a little dubious but I'll digress, I agree with the OP that the rest don't really have any actual lore or in-game indicators of being law manipulation and seem closer to stylised utilisation of the game mechanics and HUD in the fight than anything.

I am neutral on the infinite turn one, didn't seem as self-evidently a misconception as the others, and honestly I don't know exactly what to call that so I am fine with it staying as is. But if staff deems that it is also iffy or that there is a more accurate way to index that I'll go along with the final decision on it as well.

Thank you for the feedback! I should start counting the votes so far.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

No idea how it would work in a battle though. Would the enemy be stopped while Sans remains still? Can he move?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

So yah not even removing the Law Hax?
A wording change is neat too Ig

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

So yah not even removing the Law Hax?
A wording change is neat too Ig

All are removed except extending his turn. And we could talk about how that works.

 

[Planck69]

so we are gonna remove the supporting evidence?

At the very least. Frankly I'm not all that sure about Law Manipulation generally when I look at the remaining feat on its own. But I'll wait for what other staff have to say on that..

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

At the very least. Frankly I'm not all that sure about Law Manipulation generally when I look at the remaining feat on its own. But I'll wait for what other staff have to say on that..

Would this thread be good to talk about how this would be used in a normal battle?

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Can he attack infinitely while extending his turn?

He didn't attack because he didn't want to and didn't have energy

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

I always (not really) viewed the infinite turn thing as more of a verse-rule that exists in every single battle in UT, but sans was the only one clever enough to utilize it to force a stalemate, kinda like how Gerson exploited the fact that Shopkeepers can't be fought against Genocide Frisk

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I always (not really) viewed the infinite turn thing as more of a verse-rule that exists in every single battle in UT, but sans is the only one clever enough to utilize to force a stalemate, kinda like how Gerson exploited the fact that Shopkeepers can't be fought and stuff

What about what i said?

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Can he attack infinitely while extending his turn?

He didn't attack because he didn't want to and didn't have energy

If Sans attacks, he'll have taken his turn and it'll end. So no, he must do absolutely nothing.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

If it still exists I would like for it to be cleared up on how it would work for battles.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

If Sans attacks, he'll have taken his turn and it'll end. So no, he must do absolutely nothing.

He attacked during the final phase and it still was on his turn though?

 

[Magicomethkuon]

He attacked during the final phase and it still was on his turn though?

Sans stopped his turn short of ending. He can't extend the turn attacking infinitely though, by his own words he must do nothing at that point, “even if it means standing still until the end of time”.

 

[MusicRelaxing]

Other than the infinite turn, which feels a little dubious but I'll digress, I agree with the OP that the rest don't really have any actual lore or in-game indicators of being law manipulation and seem closer to stylised utilisation of the game mechanics and HUD in the fight than anything.

Possible Law Manip...?

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Sans stopped his turn short of ending. He can't extend the turn attacking infinitely though, by his own words he must do nothing at that point, “even if it means standing still until the end of time”.

Right

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Bump

 

[ShionAH]

Bump

bro absolutely HATES sans

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

bro absolutely HATES sans

Now let's not be spreading baseless rumors.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Extending his turn is probably not even law manipulation. What if its just sans not attacking and thus not using up his turn?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Extending his turn is probably not even law manipulation. What if its just sans not attacking and thus not using up his turn?

I mean that's the overall point. It's just a game mechanic used in a meta way. Like if I were to play a turn based game and just leave it at my turn and go cook something. You could say it's law manipulation but the intent was just for it to be a fun detail to other turn based games.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Extending his turn is probably not even law manipulation. What if its just sans not attacking and thus not using up his turn?

Perhaps a combat applicable breaking of the fourth wall would be a more accurate way to index it than law-manipulation. Sans acknowledging the game mechanic of a turn existing and not ending it.

 

[ShionAH]

Perhaps a combat applicable breaking of the fourth wall would be a more accurate way to index it than law-manipulation. Sans acknowledging the game mechanic of a turn existing and not ending it.

The general idea was combat system are "laws" of undertale and Sans can semi break them

 

[Planck69]

The general idea was combat system are "laws" of undertale and Sans can semi break them

...Is this even acknowledged in-game? Cause Sans just breaking the fourth wall and not using his turn is a more straightforward answer.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

...Is this even acknowledged in-game? Cause Sans just breaking the fourth wall and not using his turn is a more straightforward answer.

Yeah that's what's most likely happening considering he is literally just not doing anything so that the battle doesn't proceed and he can keep staying in his own turn.

 

[ShionAH]

...Is this even acknowledged in-game?

Gerson.

 

[Planck69]

Gerson.

Does he specifically acknowledge them as in-universe laws? There's a difference between characters just being aware of game mechanics and those mechanics being universal laws in that sense.

And like, Sans isn't actually manipulating anything regardless. If a setting had a magical law where "you can't take damage in a school" and I camp out there, that's not really Law Manipulation, is it?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Well damn.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

The sans tactic kinda has to make it an actual rule, or it wouldn't really make sense in-universe?
Kinda like how SAVEs and LOADs are canon because of the Flowey shenanigans

 

[ShionAH]

Does he specifically acknowledge them as in-universe laws? There's a difference between characters just being aware of game mechanics and those mechanics being universal laws in that sense.

Save and Load proves the game mechanics are canon, Gerson supports this.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Only the game mechanics stated to actually work like that.