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The Never-Ending Revisions Continue

X792 base Natsu was never scaled to Jellal's 7-A Sema. He was scaled to Brandish's island lift.

We can't scale their base to the CSK feat since that is x11 weaker than Ikusa who himself was casual about the swing and then got one shot by an attack which only KO'd a Spriggan and burnt his clothes off.

It is an outlier, every other feat/scaling makes perfect sense except for that single showing. There is no near borderline when the feat is casual and halfway through the tier.
 
We have done previously before I could have sworn we done that. And ok Ikusa swing was casual....Base Natsu still couldn't damage it with his win power so no again it's not an outlier and again if u read what I've said about the Spriggans then I would know why I argue about it. So let me ask u this, why r we scaling them to Spriggans in their base forms if they needed help? If they r equal then what was the point of using power ups? what was the point in needing help?? it was shown that they could only at best slightly damage them and even with help it still didn't prove anything unless power up or transformations. So I ask again why was that ever needed? TELL ME!

EDIT: also thank u for staying calm and civil and not accusing me of things. I really appreciate it
 
If we did that before, I sure wasn't here for it because that never happened in my time here.

The fact that the punch does not fit the rest of the scaling and is the only problem does make it an outlier. I have seen your reasoning and it consists of that punch not being called an outlier, Natsu using POF and apparently PIS. But do you know why that doesn't work? Because it means every other feat that doesnt conform with that single anti feat is thrown out the window. Those being half of the final arc.

Because they have been shown to take attacks from and harm Spriggans, why in gods name would they not scale when the next best feat in the series is over x10 weaker. Natsu used a stronger attack to end the fight, inside the guildhall, he was holding back immensely to the point that the moment he stops restraining his magic power, he starts hurting Jacob from the sheer heat even without making a single flame or trying.
 
Yeah that sheer heat was from FDKM though. Again I never said that his one hit in Neihart was PIS. Again though, FT members 1v1 on their own so they needed help or they would had gotten creamed. Plz don't ignore the fact they did SLIGHTLY DAMAGE to Spriggans on their own or with help cause that's also my argument. Why scale them fully to Spriggans when they did tiny amount of damage

Literally Base Natsu lunch staggering Ikusa is basically the same as FT members being able to do lightly damage to their opponent (no I'm not comparing their power but comparing how the situation is quite similar)
 
Okay, you need to stop with this "Barely did any damage to the Spriggans" when the Spriggans themselves barely did any damage with their hits on Natsu. It took repeated hits to actually give him a bunch of scuff marks. That alone throws out your attempt to scale them to 7-A Mard and CSK. That is with us ignoring that no character has a single reason to scale to that level beyond headcanon (your current argument).

If Ikusa is OK'd, X792 characters are going to High 7-A, yes that is in their base forms because their base forms have feats for it. End of story unless you have better that you have been holding out on.
 
Under your argument Blackejan, we'd still have to scale Base Natsu to Low 7-B, that would be ridiculous
 
No Base Natsu didn't use his normal attacks and used FDKM attacks so again that's not cutting it. Um....I can see u still ignore the "slightly damage" cause imma ask u again, how come they needed 2 people just to take on 1 spriggans? U still haven't answered me that yet but I'll say this cause this is in hope of taking them down but Spriggans still kicked their ass with them both. Naw Natsu was taking more damage from Spriggan hits then he dished out to them. Explain why was Base Natsu scared of Brandish then? He's suppose to be equal to them right?! he's suppose to be in their lvl right?! it took a PoF just for him to be on that lvl but that's where it stops.

@Demon

Under yur argument, u think they should fully scale when in fact they didn't do that much damage, that would be ridiculous. Beforehand u try to scale characters from Sema before Brandish calc so how is this anything ridiculous from what u done before?

I would honestly say that Base Natsu should have Likely High 7A with his Low 7B
 
Whew this went far fast. Anyway

The argument being made is Natsu used Igneel's Power to beat Ikusa right? Except that's not true. We see him specifically say "The Flames of Igneel, the Fire Dragon King". Furthermore, We see what he has to do when he uses Igneel's Remnants and that's Remove the wrapping around his arm, which he does 2x when he's tempted to use it. Also as others have said the Spriggans > Ikusa and Natsu has several Spriggans to choose from to scale to. It's far more likely FDKM and Spells are homages to Igneel and not the actual Remnants.
 
Does magic power always scale durability? As in, if someone has comparable magic power than someone who has High 7-A durability, do we automatically consider them to have High 7-A durability even if they don't have any feats? (This isn't about any character in particular).
 
@HsT

Yeah but the reason behind it is the his own power couldn't even damage Ikusa but his power using Igneel can. He needs a Higher with FDK attacks
 
@Damage

Yes, Magic scales to durability and AP, plus all transformations in Fairy Tail increase physical and magical abilities
 
So, to try and visualize this, what I think is being proposed is:

FDKM Natsu > Jacob = Brandish > Ikusa = High 7-A (2.02 Gigatons)

But what is also being basically implied is that:

Jacob = Base Natsu + Base Lucy, due to the two of them being able to damage Jacob (it's in their current justifications).

Which would make this be the case:

Jacob = Base Natsu + Base Lucy > Ikusa = High 7-A (2.02 Gigatons)

When it is pretty clear that Natsu and Lucy in base at least are far inferior to Ikusa and the Spriggans.
 
@Damage

Lucy only helped counter Jacob's hax really. When she was alone she almost got oneshotted, so she was just a "support" character, who managed to counter Jacob's hax. Physically, Natsu was matching Jacob pretty much equally.

Not to mention that:

Base Natsu >= Base Gajeel = Bloodman(Who is a Spriggan)
 
BlackeJan said:
@HsT

Yeah but the reason behind it is the his own power couldn't even damage Ikusa but his power using Igneel can. He needs a Higher with FDK attacks
Click to expand...
Except you've no basis to somehow assume he was using Igneel Remnants And not his normal FDKM.

>He never unwraps his arm which he has to in order to use it

>It's said that once he uses it, it's gone.

>Normal FDKM and Igneel's Remnants have a separate appearance.
 
Anyway with the scaling.

Lucy can either scale to Elfman and Lisanna or Jacob. Elfman and Lissana themselves have no need to scale to her when they beat Ajeel.

Mirajane scales off of being > Elfman and Lisanna and comparable to Erza

As I've said before Natsu has his Choice of Spriggans to scale from. Whether it be Ajeel, Amped Neinhart, or Jacob and arguably Historia God Serena.
 
I think Lucy can be scaled to Elfman. Not sure about Mirajane, Satan Soul Mira got owned by Irene's minions but she managed to contend with Jacob in base afterward. I think Natsu should be scaled to amped Neinhart, he was arguably holding back against Jacob since the fight happened inside of the guildhall and his fight with Historia Serena was too short.
 
@HsT

I'm guessing u didn't see the earlier one where we were arguing about Base Natsu. Did u read my message? if Base Natsu own power couldn't hurt Ikusa then start spouting off that he "needs Igneels help" then used an attack that FDKM uses then yeah of course it wasn't his own but a FDK Attack. It been known that Natsu can use FDKM without Igneels Power

@Captain

Natsu was getting tossed like a salad by Jacob even with Lucy help. The only time Natsu was actually able to hit Jacob was ONLY because of his weakness
 
I'm guessing u didn't see the earlier one where we were arguing about Base Natsu. Did u read my message? if Base Natsu own power couldn't hurt Ikusa then start spouting off that he "needs Igneels help" then used an attack that FDKM uses then yeah of course it wasn't his own but a FDK Attack. It been known that Natsu can use FDKM without Igneels Power

I did. You're arguing he used Igneel's Remnants to One Shot Ikusa and not his own FDKM, when I've already pointed out the problems with that. Also, you're under the impression that Blaze Dragon King Mode and Fire Dragon King Mode are 2 separate things, when they aren't. Just 2 different translations.
 
Dear lord what happened to this thread?

I still disagree with the idea of Natsu being below Ikusa/Spriggans in base, at least for the end of the series. While it can be argued that Natsu got stronger between the battles with Ikusa and Jacob (which is something that has been happening since BoS) I think that'd apply to that one arc alone, and at the moment the war begins he's Large Mountain.

So this'd need another key for Natsu, but I'm pretty sure nobody wants that.
 
Base Natsu logically has to be below Ikusa in base. His attack did virtually no damage to Ikusa from what I can tell - with the wizard on the ground saying it wouldn't affect Ikusa.

His attacks against Jacob in base at best winded him or drew a single drop of blood (when he and Lucy kicked him at the same time). Keeping up with him in a hand-to-hand fight mostly just shows comparable skill, not that he's equal to him in AP.

With FDKM, Natsu one-shot both opponents. The difference between his base state and these FDKM attacks is huge.

Whether he's stronger or not by the end of the series, I can't say. But in these two fights, it definitely seems to me that he is significantly weaker.
 
Another option is to just backscales Base Natsu to Ikusa's feat, he would be Large Mountain level but below whatever result that the calc is.
 
@HsT

No....I know the difference. I can't stress it enough what I've said about the translation. I'm using the difference in name so u guys know what part I'm talking about. I still feel like u ignore the part of Base Natsu and his iron fist that did nothing but his demolition fist did. I'm not the only one who thinks that he utilized FDKM

I can HOWEVER agree to him having 2 keys for base form but I know that he should have a Likely High 7A then since he was getting his ass kicked to Jacob
 
I'm not ignoring it. It's clearly shown he was able to stagger him with a base Iron Fist. Furthermore I agree with Plum's option. I was actually going to mention that.
 
Ignoring the fact I said Natsu should have two separate Base keys for X792 hours ago, he was getting his ass handed to Jacob due to Stealth and not any lack of power/skill, Natsu scales fully to Spriggans.
 
Hst master said:
I'm not ignoring it. It's clearly shown he was able to stagger him with a base Iron Fist. Furthermore I agree with Plum's option. I was actually going to mention that.
Click to expand...
Staggering him isn't the same as hurting him. In the page I linked up above, base Natsu's attack clearly did no damage.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
Ignoring the fact I said Natsu should have two separate Base keys for X792 hours ago, he was getting his ass handed to Jacob due to Stealth and not any lack of power/skill, Natsu scales fully to Spriggans.
Click to expand...
Still doesn't matter if your a lot stronger then your enemy. Partial END demolished Dimaria and her timestop did jack crap to her
 
Base Natsu also matched 1st Devil Slayer Mark Gray in the Avatar Arc, and that Gray damaged and defeated Invel, so another thing that scales Base Natsu to Spriggan level
 
Base Natsu never matched DS Gray what? that was all a fake tattoo for undercover or Gray wasn't even trying. He defeated Invel cause he was pissed (which is a power boost) and iirc he used DS magic on him as well
 
Still doesn't matter if your a lot stronger then your enemy. Partial END demolished Dimaria and her timestop did jack crap to her

That's a complete false equivalence. Natsu being thrown around by Jaco via Stealth is nowhere near the same as Natsu being unaffected by dimaria's timestop. And this isnt mentioning Natsu has like 2 other Spriggans to scale to. So if he can't scale to Jacob, he'll scale to either Neinhart, Ajeel, or the several weaker or comaprable characters that do scale to spriggans.
 
That's a good equivalence like what? That's a prime example of someone is a lot stronger then u then the hax wouldn't work. If we were to say FOR EXAMPLE that Natsu perception (or whatever that makes so sense something) was ALOT better then Jacobs then even with Stealth Natsu would had dodged all his attacks. The mere fact that Jacob was still bodying them tells that they aren't in his lvl in base. His hit on Neihart was PoF but the man was scared of Brandish not even long ago. Don't know why he needs to scale to other Spriggans in base when he never went against them in the 1st place
 
Base Natsu should be comparable to Spriggans, not stronger necessarily, but comparable
 
BlackeJan said:
That's a good equivalence like what? That's a prime example of someone is a lot stronger then u then the hax wouldn't work. If we were to say FOR EXAMPLE that Natsu perception (or whatever that makes so sense something) was ALOT better then Jacobs then even with Stealth Natsu would had dodged all his attacks. The mere fact that Jacob was still bodying them tells that they aren't in his lvl in base. His hit on Neihart was PoF but the man was scared of Brandish not even long ago. Don't know why he needs to scale to other Spriggans in base when he never went against them in the 1st place
Click to expand...
Except it's 2 different situations? END is completely no selling Dimaria's Timestop which affects everything around her, while Jacob's stealth solely affects him. Also Did you just forget about him casually decking Ajeel in Alvarez and his sand(Who he also was wary about) and Natsu was only pissed off about Neinhart and still stomped him without issue.
 
I don't want to do a vote, but can we at least find out who agrees with scaling Base Natsu to Spriggan level, cause I do
 
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