The Never-Ending Revisions Continue

[BlackeJan]

No no votes. It would basically be people who either wanna vote just for the upgrade or disagree on it just because

We need more staff on this. If more staff agree then I'll back down

 

[DragonEmperor23]

It's just an explanation for two different reasonings. Can both sides summarize the argument for each side?

 

[The_Calaca]

While it can be argued that Natsu got stronger between the battles with Ikusa and Jacob (which is something that has been happening since BoS) I think that'd apply to that one arc alone, and at the moment the war begins he's Large Mountain.

So this'd need another key for Natsu, but I'm pretty sure nobody wants that.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Honestly, at the end of the day, keys are made for a reason. If it properly categorizes the character's power when it changes in large amounts then I don't see the problem. Having less keys but making it more inaccurate doesn't make sense.

 

[The_Calaca]

That's a thing, yes.

I could totally see Natsu being below Ikusa-Tsunagi in base but being above Spriggans in base as well if those are two different keys.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Natsu should still scale to Ikusa-Tsunagi in the Avatar Arc, Natsu gets incrementially stronger as the series goes on, but the Natsu who fought Ikusa-Tsunagi would still scale to High 7-A, unless you wish to scale him to Low 7-B

Natsu physically matches and damages Jacob

Natsu punches Ajeel in the face and it damages him

Natsu defeats Neinhart

Natsu melts Invel's Ice and impresses him in base form

Natsu should be comparable to Gajeel who matches Bloodman

Natsu fought against 1st Devil Mark Gray in the Avatar Arc, the same who damaged and fought Invel

Natsu scales above Elfman and Lisanna who beat Ajeel

Natsu progressively gets stronger, but he starts at High 7-A to begin with

The only point against Natsu scaling to just High 7-A is that he didn't beat Ikusa-Tsuangi with one normal fire punch, which isn't a good argument, cause what if Natsu had a full on fight with Ikusa-Tsunagi using only his base form and going all out he could still dammage him and have a good fight, everything leans to Natsu being High 7-A anyways

Edit: Not to mention Natsu, gajeel, and Erza are constantly taking hits from the Spriggans and keeping up with them jsut fine, even if Natsu isn't necessarily stronger, he is comparable

 

[The_Calaca]

Avatar Arc Base Natsu did nothing against Ikusa-Tsunagi. We can't say that he could arguably win in base if they fight more. With the available info he shouldn't scale in base to Iku while his FDKM will scale far above him.

Alvarez Arc Base Natsu, however, does scale to the Spriggans (albeit lower than some of them) with FDKM being able to fodderize them.

This is the way I see it. We might need another key for Natsu which might be like this:

Unknow, at least Low 7-B, at least High 7-A with FDKM.

Or we delete the Low 7-B part. Natsu obviously became stronger, but we have no clue of how much he did, and I don't think we should scale him to an arguably stronger himself when the displays of his power are this different.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

^I completely disagree, that's an unnecessary key, Natsu didn't get far stronger from Avatar Arc till the Alvarez Arc, I won't agree to compromise on this one, because I think the other side is completely incorrect

 

[The_Calaca]

The other side says that Base Natsu shouldn't scale to the Spriggans at all, while I say that he does, but only in the final arc, while the previous arc is clearly different.

 

[BlackeJan]

If Base Natsu is scaling to Spriggan then he should have a Likely High 7A. Of course I won't ignore that that he cause damage, if wasn't significantly amount to them or it wasn't even that much + due to the fact that he was getting tossed around while still having help until Jacob weakness was exposed

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Natsu never trained between the Avatar and Alavarez arc at all, that is the silliest thing I ever heard, Natsu scales to straight up High 7-A in both Avatar and Alvarez Arcs, anything else would just be wrong

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Literally not complicated, the Spriggans have always been portrayed and cited as superior to everything the FT guild had ever faced before, which would include the War God

 

[The_Calaca]

Saying that Natsu didn't get stronger because he doesn't train doesn't say a thing. Natsu becomes stronger overtime without training, being the last timeskip the only one who did have a training.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Still disagree with 2 different keys

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Strongly against adding another keys. It is completely unnecessary.

 

[BlackeJan]

That reminds me but what happened to @Homu?

 

[The_Calaca]

I don't care about adding more keys. It was a suggestion, but I know that now you might be somewhat against touching Natsu's profile more than it currently is.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

I'd agree with more keys, it always seems a trope in shounen series to be stronger in future arcs. Plus we know Natsu gets stronger over time.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

If the majority rule against if, I am fine with that but until then, I for the separate Arc keys.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Completely against more keys

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

If we goes down with adding key based on arc, then we should add bunch of keys from pre timeskip arc, then a couple more from post timeskip arc, and then Natsu profile would be even more clusterfuck than it already is.

 

[The_Calaca]

That'd be the case if said arcs have different numbers to scale, but that's usually not the case with FT. The characters usually share the same tier between some arcs, jumping in power with transformations.

 

[BlackeJan]

Don't we have calcs from brfore they were discarded? Or can we calc Base Natsu's uname roar he used to one shot Bluenote? cause I still think though that Base Natsu should have a "Likely"

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I don't think the roar that he shot Bluenote will even hit Low 7-B.

 

[BlackeJan]

Well that sucks. Well we have @Captn and @Demon + lots of new calculation have come by so we shouldn't at least give it a try

 

[Davidsteel1]

Wait, now this has become an argument that Natsu in Avatar is weaker than Natsu in Alvarez? Even though there has been little to no time passed between both arcs?

And even if the argument is to be made that base Natsu gets stronger between arcs, his greatest jumps in power have always been over significant points in time (the 1 year Timeskip) or with a clearly outlined powerup (second origin). His base never actually experiences any drastic changes in power between arcs, especially not arcs that take place almost back to back.

 

[Davidsteel1]

I feel like this is being treated as far more complicated than it actually is.

Natsu with his most basic move and with literally no show of extraordinary effort on his part made Ikusatsunagi take a knee. That at the very least shows that there power is somewhat comparable.

Natsu when he actually puts his back into it can go from contending with, to oneshotting certain Spriggans. It's straight forward and spending hundreds of replies on this is straight up ludicrous

 

[Damage3245]

You're overselling Natsu's attack; he didn't make Ikusa take a knee. He did virtually no damage to Ikusa at all.

Here is a shot of Ikusa's head (with Natsu on top of it) after Natsu did his attack in base. No damage.

 

[Davidsteel1]

I suppose using "take a knee" was a bit too literal of an expression, so a bad on my part.

But that's neither here nor there in regards to my point. Natsu staggered Ikusatsunagi, if he was not comparable on some level that in and of itself would have been impossible.

 

[The_Calaca]

@David Even if in the manga he doesn't suffer great jumps from arc to arc without powerups, if the previous display of his base power is inferior to his EoS then it's pretty obvious that he wasn't as strong.

On a related note, I'm reading the chapter and before hitting Iku's head Natsu's talking about friendship and stuff, so I don't think the attack is that casual even if it's not an Ougi move.

 

[BlackeJan]

It wasn't casual at all. U can tell he was going Plus Ultra there

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Natsu not severely damaging Ikusa-Tsunagi with one-punch is the only inconsistency in the manga with scaling Natsu the spriggans, why are treating it like both sides have equal arguments here, the evidence of scaling X792 Natsu to the Spriggans far outweighs the evidence against, we shouldn't add another key or need a likely, Base Natsu has tons of feats of matching Spriggans and should scale to them, if we randomly added an Avatar arc key to appease the other sides argument, we'd have to add one for every character, plus it'd be ignoring the story and plot

We shouldn't add more keys, Natsu in base is High 7-A, now can we please get staff members to look at this

 

[BlackeJan]

U mean that he didn't even do that much damage? well we need staff members who also know FT

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

@Blackejan

Just want to say I'm sorry for getting rude, I was tired last night, and when I see something I completely disagree with, I can get a little heated, that's nothing against you as a person

 

[Damage3245]

I suppose using "take a knee" was a bit too literal of an expression, so a bad on my part.
But that's neither here nor there in regards to my point. Natsu staggered Ikusatsunagi, if he was not comparable on some level that in and of itself would have been impossible.

I'm doubtful towards that.

To give an example from another series, Monkey D. Luffy was able to knock Kaido flat on his back twice with a barrage of attacks, but he didn't leave so much as a scratch on Kaido, and he's definitely not comparable to him.

 

[BlackeJan]

@Blackejan

Just want to say I'm sorry for getting rude, I was tired last night, and when I see something I completely disagree with, I can get a little heated, that's nothing against you as a person

I won't lie I was a little hurt by some accusation u thought I had but then I forgot of how much ya love FT. It's alright my man we r gonna disagree but that can't break that bond we have

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Yeah, I disagree with you, but that's doesn't justify me making accusations at you and being uncool like that, I just want to resolve this

 

[1997KD]

Saying that Natsu didn't get stronger because he doesn't train doesn't say a thing. Natsu becomes stronger overtime without training, being the last time skip the only one who did have a training.

You want to give natsu Accelerated Development? Getting stronger without doing anything? Cause between Alvarez and avatar arc there is only 7-10 day gap(or maybe less)

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

We always take the strongest Natsu has been in his base form and that's what we use that as his tier for his base form withing the key, so we should do the same for X792, treat Natsu's base form punch against Ikusa-Tsunagi as an outlier and have him in X792 just be High 7-A, this is really not complicated guys

 

[1997KD]

I seriously didn't understand what going on here. But Base natsu<Base natsu use fdk/lfd spell<natsu in fdk/lfd mod, it's not that hard to understand