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The Never-Ending Revisions Continue

U literally said it yourself @Demon

I'm not confusing anything. What u just said @Captain is what I've been saying. The one against Jacob is weaker cause he doesn't have Igneels Power with it. No Natsu could had used a hint of its power cause of needing "Igneels Help" but vs Jacob, he doesn't have the mark anymore so he's using own power

I'm going by how it looks in the manga and what was shown not by What I think. FT scaling and it's issues with Spriggans is what makes no sense but this still doesn't miss the fact that Base Natsu did jack crap to Ikusa which meant he went all out with his own power cause of that wasn't true then he wouldn't need to escort using FDK attacks
 
This is the scaling

Likely High 7-A: Lucy, Lisanna, Elfman etc.

High 7-A: Base Natsu, Base Gajeel, Spriggans etc.

At least High 7-A: FDKM Natsu, Laxus, Jellal etc.

Gildarts stays the same

This is really easy and shouldn't really be contested, Lucy, Lisanna, and Elfman damaged Spriggans and we can't scale them to a weaker feat, because there is none
 
Now we have a more solid number, actually. With FDKM Natsu scales far above 2.2GT which is consistent with the 1.7GT feat as collateral damage.

I agree with the Spriggans scaling to Iku, but I think we should judge who scales to them.
 
BlackeJan said:
U literally said it yourself @Demon
I'm not confusing anything. What u just said @Captain is what I've been saying. The one against Jacob is weaker cause he doesn't have Igneels Power with it. No Natsu could had used a hint of its power cause of needing "Igneels Help" but vs Jacob, he doesn't have the mark anymore so he's using own power

I'm going by how it looks in the manga and what was shown not by What I think. FT scaling and it's issues with Spriggans is what makes no sense but this still doesn't miss the fact that Base Natsu did jack crap to Ikusa which meant he went all out with his own power cause of that wasn't true then he wouldn't need to escort using FDK attacks
Click to expand...
The attack he used on ika didn't have igneel flame/power as well
 
I still have problem with Base form scaling to Spriggans since while it's true they could damage them, it is a VERY small amount + they needed help since they would outright get their cheeks clapped if 1v1 and they r only able to actually beat them when it comes to power ups or transformations

EDIT: there r 2 people who agree that Base Natsu shouldn't scale to Ikusa
 
@Blackejan

Tell me the exact comment that mad you think I said Fire Dragon King Mode = Igneel's Power

"Natsu could had used a hint of its power cause of needing Igneels Help"

Speculation don't mean jack, Natsu said he could only use Igneel's Power once and it only activates when he unleashes the tatoo and has red fire, so that doesn't mean anything for scaling
 
Look above and read some of the comments u said. Look I don't care about Spriggans > Ikusa cause it's already known but it's their BASE FORMS that shouldn't scale

@Beast That was with PoF since beforehand when he met her, he got scared and was going to use FDKM
 
Spriggans scale above Ikusa-Tsunagi

Natsu fought and damaged Jacob and Neinhart, and melted Invel's ice and impressed him, and he also scales to Base Gajeel who matched Bloodman in power

The only reason FT Members have trouble with the spriggans is mostly due to the spriggans having hax, the only contestion to Base Natsu not scaling is that his One Normal punch didn't do a ton against Ikusa-Tsunagi, which isn't really solid

Most of the arguments against are Arguments from Incredulity
 
Everything about scaling has been said before, nothing changes about scaling, just the results of the feat, so why are we still talking about this stuff, Blackejan is just bring up arguments that were rejected before
 
Not only that, if Natsu is really afraid of Brandish, how come he didn't feel the same when he faced the other Spriggans?

Also, just because the attack has "Fire Dragon King" on it doesn't mean he use the mode when using it, just like he did against the Alvarez fodders when he toasted them with FDK roar. He will shouts out "Modo Enryuo" when he entered the mode just like he did against Zeref and Jacob.
 
@Beast

No....doesn't matter cause again Natsu himself STILL got scared of Brandish yet like a couple days later, he starts spouting of friendship then proceeds to one shot

@Demon

The thing is though....they needed help! and not only that cool they got a hit, but it only did a tiny amount of damage. It basically tells u that Spriggans > Base FT so they needed to team up to take them down and it was ONLY thanks to power ups and transformations that actually beat them and Idr Base Gajeel actually able to hurt Bloodman. Not all Spriggan have had like for example Intel just used Ice, Ajeel with sand, Newhart with memory, Wahl with technology and Jacob as well. Heck @Lsir even said it wouldn't make sense for character to be comparable to stronger characters just cause they got them to get a nose bleed from a punch. Brandish even went to hold back vs Lucy who's weaker then Natsu himself and outright said she could had killed her if she actually felt like it

EDIT: there r people who still feel that Base Natsu shouldn't scale to Ikusa
 
@Blackejan

You have added nothing new, I've seen these comments before, and I still think they're wrong

^The sad thing is that I've even said that before

The scaling we have now is what we should use, nothing has changed from then to now, you're just taking another opportunity to talk about the same crap in hopes more people will agree with you now
 
It does matter actually, since they were many people who is stronger than Brandish. And couple of feats of Base Natsu contending againsts people on her level/stronger supporting that.

And spouting about friendship, he didn't do that against Jacob and Invel.
 
@Demon

No....people from the comments before also think the Base Natsu isn't stronger the Ikusa and what's said is I've said the same thing while ignore in hope FT members get that upgrade that u desperately want while also ignoring actual facts that was seen in the manga just of course again so u can make sure people get an upgrade, heck u proved that to me when u had a mental breakdown over fictional characters (which to me is sad) so don't come at me with a rude tone and accuse me of something that's not even true since beforehand I had agreed to the scalings and I never agree to bade forms being as strong as the Spriggans when somenone also said they shouldn't scale just cause they could have someone stagger or people able to damage someone stronger that doesn't even hurt that much.

@Beast

It doesn't matter and I already told u why and only the strongest of the Spriggan r stronger then Brandish. Against Jacob Natsu needed help and was able to beat him using FDKM and Intel didn't even try when it came to freezing them (fairly sure he can make his ice stronger by the output)
 
Damage agreed when he thought Igneel's Power = Fire Dragon King Mode, which is wrong, and Lancer did agree with you, I'll give you that

But I'm done argument, you're repeating the same things that I've debunked before, so I'm not arguing agan
 
U didn't debunked anyone and @Damage still agreed to what I've said about Base Natsu. If other people say basically what was on my mind then it's u who have been debunked and I've debunked many times already U just choose to ignore the facts l....but yur right we r done
 
Why did Natsu say 'this is the fire of Igneel' when he used the Demolition Fist to destroy Ikusa, if Igneel's Power wasn't used?

Also, if base Natsu's power = Spriggan's power, why would the Fairy Tail group be shocked by the Spriggan's power if base Natsu was just as strong as them?
 
^^^^

Most of what everyone is going by the notion that just b/c they damaged (even though it's very slightly) then that means they r on their lvl but really they aren't
 
@Damage

"this if the fire of igneel" was simply a homage to igneel. His Fire Dragon King attacks are based after Igneel's attacks, hence the "fire dragon king". Him using the tatoo makes far less sense, since he stated that that is a one-time power up only, which he plans to use on Zeref.

As for the fairy tail group being shocked by the Spriggan's power, it is the classic villain hyping. Fact remains that base Natsu did match a Spriggan's power, meaning that base Natsu = Spriggan
 
Igneel's power was stated by natsu to only be capable of being used once. Simple as that, if he used it on iku he wouldn't have access to it anymore.

If you disagree that's your headcanon against something stated in series.
 
On a somewhat related note, I've realized that the justification for Lucy's AP are:

> Damaged Jacob and Brandish

And Brandish's durability justification is:

> Took hits from Lucy

So the mention of Brandish should probably be removed from Lucy's profile to avoid circular reasoning.

The same problem exists with Natsu and Jacob.

Natsu gets his AP rating from harming Jacob.

Jacob gets his Durability rating from tanking Natsu's hits.
 
This argument is dumb and there is a very simple solution. Base Avatar Natsu is weaker than base Alvarez Natsu. Avatar Natsu clearly is not on the level of Ikusa in base while Alvarez Natsu (a bit into the arc) is able to fight against characters far stronger than Ikusa. Why are we trying to even keep his X792 base as one key when its pretty obvious it isn't.
 
@Yoyco

Yet he used a FDK move on ikusa but his own fire fist didn't do anything? It was said that FDKM was Natsu using Igneels Power while BDKM (just using this so u know what I'm taking about) is Natsu using his own power.

Other then Natsu having PoF to one shot Neihart then where is it that Base Natsu = Spriggans yet he needed help to take on Jacob and had to use a mode to actually beat him? U want to know someone that could equal a Spriggan? Gildarts (though they weren't using their full power cause they were semi-dead but it's still impressive)
 
Stop using Headcanon, Natsu never used Igneel's Power against Ikusa-Tsunagi and Natsu beating Neinhart isn't PIS when he damaged Jacob and Melted Invel's Ice, you're just ignoring the evidence because it doesn't fit your narrative

@Anonymous

Natsu never trained from the end of Avatar to Alvarez, so we keep the keys the same, plus there is nothing saying Base Natsu couldn't beat Ikusa-Tsunagi if he used some of his stronger Base form attacks
 
Stop using headcanon, no that was compete PoF when he was scared of Brandish beforehand so stop ignoring real facts. Congrats he melted Invels Ice who didn't even put effort into his ice attack + already told u he SLIGHTLY damage Jacob with the help of Jacob AND he had to use a mode to defeat him so again debunked. Yur just ignoring proof just so u can fulfill yur desire for an upgrade AND AGAIN! in going by what the manga shows, NOT MY OWN WORDS
 
You just want Natsu beating Neinhart to be PIS so you're right, but since he fought jacob and impressed Invel, not to mention he should be comparable to Base Gajeel who matched Bloodman in terms of power, it isn't inconsistent
 
@Blacke

Natsu was physically on par with Jacob and just activating that mode was already hurting Jacob, the actual attack one shot him. You also have to remember that Natsu was thrown out of the hall so that he could actually use his power (the passive heat that melts giant stadiums) without holding back.

At this point, Ikusa taking a punch to the face is just an outlier.
 
I'm sure that Base Gajeel couldn't touch Bloodman so he need DF to beat him and I never said that it was PIS but PoF. Ok he impressed by how he CASUALLY threw ice at Natsu just how Beerus was impressed by SSG Goku yet he is still a lot stronger then him. U just want Natsu besting Neihart to prove that yur right. I'm literally debunking everything you've said

@Anonymous

When was he physically on par cause I remember Jacob beating the crap out of Base Natsu then even when Lucy came in they were able to take him on but it STILL wasn't enough until using Jacob weakness. So I will have to disagree with u on the fact that Base Natsu is an outlier when it can be an outlier that Base Natsu was scared of Brandish but one shotted Neihart w/ PoF but I'm not saying it is (though I feel like it) but really it's PoF that done the job
 
@BlackeJan

Let's say you're right, you're not, but still, let's assume

What Tier would you have Base Natsu at, if you can at least give me justification for what Natsu would be, then I'll at least consider your argument
 
Except you are wrong? Natsu was physically on par as shown by them being able to match each other. Jacob only started slapping when he went invisible and kept sneak attacking NaLu.

It also can't be the outlier in this situation when Natsu could beat amped Neinhart, melt Invel's ice (casual Spriggan's are above Ikusa), block August's flames, Gajeel (has always been portrayed equal to Natsu) can fight and match Bloodman in hth if not for intang, Elfman can fight Ajeel (Natsu was able to throw down with Elfman earlier in the arc). You have literally one panel to say that Base Natsu doesnt scale while every other showing says otherwise.
 
Also the Power of Friendship Argument is dumb, Natsu is always using his emotions tto empower himself, even in his base form, magic uses emotion, so saying he is different because he using friendship power is silly, Natsu is always using Friendship Power
 
@Demon

Let say I am right (which I am) but let's still know I am. Base Natsu would still be At Least 7-A due to the fact that while I will not ignore the fact that he damage a Spriggan (very slightly though just like everyone else) he still needed help + he needed to use a mode to take down someone. If it wasn't for the fact that he was scared of Brandish then I would had wholeheartedly agree to Base Natsu scaling

Hiro showed us that in order to beat a Spriggan that u need to 2v1 or u need a power up
 
So you would scale Natsu to At least 7-A, that makes 0 sense

You believe we can't scale Natsu to Spriggans, so we won't here

We don't know if Base Natsu can compete with Mard Geer, or that is stronger than the CSK, we also don't know if Base Natsu surpassed any of his forms

so at best, Natsu becomes At least Low 7-B because he is stronger than his previous base form, that's what your argument entails, that is if we can't scale to spriggans

I don't think I have to say what is wrong with this argument
 
I don't have to say what's wrong with what u think of them scaling to Spriggans when it's already know they could only slightly damage them at best. U say u think that U don't know if Base Natsu surpasses CSK or his forms yet u want Base Wendy and Lucy to be able to surpass CSK and Mard Geer? U know what's even funnier?! u just admit in a way that Base Natsu can't compete with Mard Geer cause he had help and slightly damage the demon but won't say the same thing for the Spriggans? u got to be kidding me, u can't even stick to what u say
 
Well u already know what I've said but yet I could had sworn that they scale to CSK but u want to know what also funny? Jellal > Base Natsu but beforehand with 7A we scaled his Sema to Natsu so no he's just saying that cause he wants the High 7A but this is what we have done back then and NOW he doesn't want that happening? this is honestly terrible if u can follow through by what u say. How do u not see how his scaling makes no sense from what he's trying to do? It his scaling that doesn't make sense since I'm going by what we have been doing and what he always proposed
 
No they do not and no one has ever said that Tartaros arc BASE Natsu scales to base Mard. The only Natsu we have ever scaled to Mard is Tartaros DF Natsu to Etherious Mard. I do however agree with your notion that Natsu should not have scaled to Jellal's 7-A since the reasoning was headcanon of Mard being above Jellal who he had never met.

In this situation however, Mitch's reasoning is perfectly logical and the only inconsistency involved is Ikusa taking a punch from base Natsu unharmed. Remove that and all of the numerous other feats make absolutely perfect sense. That means Ikusa is the outlier here.
 
No it doesn't and I'm sure yur my understanding what I've said. BEFOREHAND when Jellals Sema was 7A, we scaled Alvarez arc FT to it yet and we all know Jellal > Base Natsu and NOW we have to feel like we can't scale them to CSK cause we don't know yet we tried scaling them to a stronger ally before? No Ikusa not taking damage isn't an outlier and if u have already seen my argument when it came to the Spriggan then u know that they shouldn't scale even when they only did SLIGHTLY damage especially to someone at High 7A that's near borderline
 
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