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[Fairy Tail] Minor (maybe) Erza, Lucy and Gray CRT

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Saqphire

Saqphire

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Sorta simple. Gray, and those who scale to him, should scale to Natsu in their respective arcs. Erza, and those who scale to her, should scale above Natsu in their respective arcs.

Why? WOG statements from 2022 (aka after 100 YQ was released). Video link for accessibility. Gray video link (statement is at the 10 minute mark).

When does Natsu (and Gray) not get affected by this statement? Simple, when he fights:

• Zeref (Natsu was amped by FOE (and even then he still didn’t finish Zeref off))
• Jellal in the Tower of Heaven arc (Natsu was amped by Etherion, it’s why he used Dragon Force that early in the series)
• Zero in the Oracion Seis arc (Natsu was amped by Golden Flame)
• Mercphobia (Mercphobia was at 50% + Natsu was amped by Ignia’s flames)
• Aldoron (Aldoron got nerfed for each orb destroyed)
• Dogramag (Same reason + Natsu was amped by Unison Raid)
• Acnologia (Natsu was amped by like, every non-villain in the OG manga)
• Mard Geer (Erza had no chance to fight Mard Geer anyway, aswell as the fact that Gray/Natsu had no chance against Mard Geer like at all, not even when Natsu was amped by Dragon Force. The only reason Natsu even won that was because Gray’s hax was just perfect for that hyperspecific situation twice (Memento Mori + Ice Bow) + Zeref intervened).

If I’ve forgotten a villain that Natsu or Gray defeats in a similar manner who scales above Erza in the arc they’re in, include that villain in the exception list aswell.

Mashima has stated several times that Natsu is the main character, with Mashimyre (Mashima’s literal self-insert) even describing Natsu’s characteristics when talking about the three main characters in Mashima’s verses in Heroes.

Even then, Lucy being referred to in the video would just make no sense as whenever Lucy is talked about in this way in other times, it’s not for her strength but about her intellect. Especially considering both mangas re-iterate how Lucy is the weaker of the four. Also the feats which I will go into here.
——
This is supported via recent and not-so recent feats and statements, I will split these into two spoiler sections.

Erza vs. The Strongest
—
Erza, while holding back, is relative to a full power, bloodlusted Laxus (White Magic either completely erases magic, or amps it up to the max. Since Laxus uses his magic here along with the previous statement that Laxus is at full power, it’s clearly not the former in his case), with Laxus practically saying he thought he would be the one to lose to her. They’re both stated to be the two strongest in the guild with Laxus being stated to be a contender for THE strongest in the guild, twice. Gildarts just got blown out of the water huh

Side note: Erza’s raw durability and speed should scale to FP Laxus’ attack potency and speed as she was tanking and dodging countless physical and magical attacks from him during that fight using her Clear Heart armor, which essentially gives her zero defense and focuses solely on offense. Saying she dosen’t scale to Laxus and that the wholeeeee fight was an outlier would be disingenious.

Erza > Current Natsu
——

There’s Natsu also not being able to handle Black Athena yet Erza can fight relative to the Signario Sisters and one-shot both of them back to back. This just means the sisters definitely scale above a pre-Natsu amp Athena II, and possibly even above Athena II in general (Delineation in a spoiler box below). Upcoming Gold Owl CRT will show this.

”But Natsu two-shots Duke who should be stronger than the sisters, with LDM”
Click to expand...

Four possibilities.
1. Duke is just not that much stronger than the Signario Sisters, as the statement from God Serena puts all three of them in a similar tier.

2. Blatant outlier

3. Mashima has plans to make Erza stronger than LDM Natsu in the future as he has done with Erza before.

4. This is just one of those temporary amps that I mentioned at the start with this one just being unexplainable, as Natsu gets back his fire dragon powers after defeating Duke.

Demon Slayer Mark (DSM) Gray being very relative to END Natsu is a start. This is already accepted but I’m just using it to emphasize the relativity to Natsu.

Rival Bond being stated to transform the opponent into someone of similar strength, and that person being Natsu for Gray

Tbh this is like the only support Gray has, as Gray has become lackluster in feats recently (The WOG statement even mentions this).

A battle-fatigued Erza stopped both DSM Gray and END Natsu from killing each other. She then goes on to fight arguably the second strongest Spriggan along with Wendy while she’s still fatigued and damaged. This Erza’s durability also scales to END Natsu/Irene’s AP as she was in her cloth armor at both times.

Gray got shocked by Misaki’s power, who Erza willingly fought and won against singlehandedly. This is already accepted, however I am willing to show these scans if requested.

Gray got horribly blitzed by Athena II post-Natsu amp, while a tired battle-ready Erza got distracted by Duke, allowing Athena II to off-guard her.

Lucy got transformed into Brandish with Rival Bond, meaning any Brandish feats in 100 Years Quest upscale Lucy and viceversa via the arguments provided for the Gray section.

In conclusion: This should effectively fortify Erza and Gray’s scaling + adds upscale potential to Erza for any non-temp amped Natsu. The scaling chain should be like this: Non-nerfed Laxus ~ His opponents >= Erza ~ Her opponents > Natsu ~ Gray ~ Their opponents > Lucy ~ Brandish ~ Their opponents.
 
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“She is very strong and stronger than the protagonist”

A completely unspecific statement that could refer to any forms of the two characters and could refer to any point of the story of Natsu and Erza. For all we know, he could be referring to the beginning of the story, where this is true, but this statement being applied to make Erza stronger than Natsu in every single arc is pure melarky… Especially when Natsu consistently has vastly superior feats… Especially with his best forms. The only thing Erza is consistently above is “Base” Natsu basically, but apart from that, Natsu consistently has feats that outright surpass Erza, especially in X792 and X793
 
Did OP just try to make the arguement Erza could have defeated Zeref and Aldo and Mard Geer?

Genuinely at a loss for words.

Natsu straight up nuked Aldo who was only somewhat weakened and we are trying to argue Erza is still stronger based off a vague author statement that's contradicted by nearly every serious Natsu feat there is.
 
Not to ******* mention, Natsu was handling Black Athena two pretty easily and the only reason she got any hits in was because Duke used Wendy as a hostage.

'Was amped by FOE and even then didn't finish Zeref off' Natsu blatantly overpowered him and burnt away his magic. Erza wasn't even stronger than Human Irene and needed 5 stacks of plot armor to destroy Dues Sama, Natsu overpowered Fairy Heart ******* Zeref in broad daylight and we still trying to argue this?
 
Also do we just get to arbitrarily throw out feats as outliers all the sudden, by that logic I can call Erza stopping Natsu and Gray an outlier because it's infinitely stupider than Natsu being strong enough to two tap Duke after easily handling Black Athena 2
 
XXBenShapiroXx said:
Also do we just get to arbitrarily throw out feats as outliers all the sudden, by that logic I can call Erza stopping Natsu and Gray an outlier because it's infinitely stupider than Natsu being strong enough to two tap Duke after easily handling Black Athena 2
Click to expand...
Alright dude, the message is received…
 
XXBenShapiroXx said:
Did OP just try to make the arguement Erza could have defeated Zeref and Aldo and Mard Geer?

Genuinely at a loss for words.
Click to expand...
I didn’t say that at all? All of them are in the exception list for a reason. And yes, a weakened Aldoron would definitely be defeated by current Erza.
DemonGodMitchAubin said:
“She is very strong and stronger than the protagonist”

A completely unspecific statement that could refer to any forms of the two characters and could refer to any point of the story of Natsu and Erza. For all we know, he could be referring to the beginning of the story, where this is true, but this statement being applied to make Erza stronger than Natsu in every single arc is pure melarky… Especially when Natsu consistently has vastly superior feats… Especially with his best forms. The only thing Erza is consistently above is “Base” Natsu basically, but apart from that, Natsu consistently has feats that outright surpass Erza, especially in X792 and X793
Click to expand...
Yeah and this is why we add context to the statement instead of using it at face value, otherwise you’d literally just goon Erza to be above the Natsu that defeated Acnologia with the statement alone, which is just insanely wrong.

”He could be referring to Erza in the beginning of the story” - As I said, it was dropped after 100 Years Quest was released, meaning he had already written each and every Natsu/Erza feat beforehand before saying this. This would mean he still considers Erza to be superior to Natsu at that moment.

”Applying this to Erza above Natsu in every arc is pure melarky, he has consistently better feats” - Yeah, most of these are thanks to either a handicap for the enemy or a temporary buff to Natsu that I’ve already stated in the list. Erza has better overall feats without either of those in almost every arc, hell I even emphasise on this with the Laxus fight.
DemonGodMitchAubin said:
I also find it funny you say Natsu can’t handle Athena 2 with those scans… When the only reason she did that well is cause Natsu couldn’t attack cause he didn’t want Duke to hurt Wendy, when Natsu was actually fighting Athena 2 and blatantly overpowering her
Click to expand...
Blatantly overpowering her is an overstatement when we know Athena II was tanking and regenerating each attack from Natsu thanks to Wendy’s magic. Also later in the fight we see Athena I fighting Athena II after the scan I dropped, allowing Natsu to fight without restraints against Duke, and yet he still lost.
XXBenShapiroXx said:
Also do we just get to arbitrarily throw out feats as outliers all the sudden, by that logic I can call Erza stopping Natsu and Gray an outlier because it's infinitely stupider than Natsu being strong enough to two tap Duke after easily handling Black Athena 2
Click to expand...
Comparing each and every battle in 100 Years Quest alone, with Erza defeating people who have stronger narrative than Natsu’s enemies except for the Dragon Gods that he defeated thanks to certain conditions that I’ve already stated in the exception list, it’s completely reasonable to throw out the outlier argument for the recent Duke one considering Natsu just has way less magic power against Duke in the second round.
Excel616 said:
So you assume Erza is stronger than Natsu since the Writer said she is stronger than the protagonist?
Click to expand...
Most of the time, she is stronger than him, yes. And the times he is stronger than her have already been adressed.
 
Saqphire said:
I didn’t say that at all? All of them are in the exception list for a reason. And yes, a weakened Aldoron would definitely be defeated by current Erza.
Click to expand...
Hell no she doesn't, when are we gonna start accepting as a society that current Dragon Force Natsu slams current Erza?
Saqphire said:
Yeah and this is why we add context to the statement instead of using it at face value, otherwise you’d literally just goon Erza to be above the Natsu that defeated Acnologia with the statement alone, which is just insanely wrong.

”He could be referring to Erza in the beginning of the story” - As I said, it was dropped after 100 Years Quest was released, meaning he had already written each and every Natsu/Erza feat beforehand before saying this. This would mean he still considers Erza to be superior to Natsu at that moment.

”Applying this to Erza above Natsu in every arc is pure melarky, he has consistently better feats” - Yeah, most of these are thanks to either a handicap for the enemy or a temporary buff to Natsu that I’ve already stated in the list. Erza has better overall feats without either of those in almost every arc, hell I even emphasise on this with the Laxus fight.
Click to expand...
None of the things you show for Erza are actually superior to Natsu though, whether you're comparing her base form to his base form, or comparing her strongest armors to something like Fire Dragon King Mode... Especially in Tartaros, dude grew to eventually take on Mard Geer alongside Gray (and yes, both End of Tartaros Natsu and Gray are superior to Erza in Tartaros)

Natsu just genuinely rivals or surpasses her. Like, come on.
Saqphire said:
Blatantly overpowering her is an overstatement when we know Athena II was tanking and regenerating each attack from Natsu thanks to Wendy’s magic. Also later in the fight we see Athena I fighting Athena II after the scan I dropped, allowing Natsu to fight without restraints against Duke, and yet he still lost.
Click to expand...
First off, you admit that she keeps up as much as she does because of Wendy's magic, not because of her own power. And also, we know that Natsu lost to Duke because he got whited out, so that part holds literally no weight.
Saqphire said:
Comparing each and every battle in 100 Years Quest alone, with Erza defeating people who have stronger narrative than Natsu’s enemies except for the Dragon Gods that he defeated thanks to certain conditions that I’ve already stated in the exception list, it’s completely reasonable to throw out the outlier argument for the recent Duke one considering Natsu just has way less magic power against Duke in the second round.
Click to expand...
The battles that... don't actually place Erza above Natsu? They put her as equal to him, but she's not superior. And even then, his Dragon Force has way better feats. So yes, this just turns into "I don't like this feat so I'll just discard it." Natsu is equal to or superior to Erza. Full stop.
Saqphire said:
Most of the time, she is stronger than him, yes. And the times he is stronger than her have already been adressed.
Click to expand...
Most of the time they're about equal with Natsu being stronger with his highest forms, including ones like Dragon Force that he can access on his own. Take Alvarez for instance. Erza needed all her power + an emotion amp to destroy Irene's Deus Sema, whereas Natsu with his own Dragon Force that he can access at will is relative to Zeref, who is superior to Irene.
 
Saqphire said:
I didn’t say that at all? All of them are in the exception list for a reason. And yes, a weakened Aldoron would definitely be defeated by current Erza.

Yeah and this is why we add context to the statement instead of using it at face value, otherwise you’d literally just goon Erza to be above the Natsu that defeated Acnologia with the statement alone, which is just insanely wrong.

”He could be referring to Erza in the beginning of the story” - As I said, it was dropped after 100 Years Quest was released, meaning he had already written each and every Natsu/Erza feat beforehand before saying this. This would mean he still considers Erza to be superior to Natsu at that moment.

”Applying this to Erza above Natsu in every arc is pure melarky, he has consistently better feats” - Yeah, most of these are thanks to either a handicap for the enemy or a temporary buff to Natsu that I’ve already stated in the list. Erza has better overall feats without either of those in almost every arc, hell I even emphasise on this with the Laxus fight.

Blatantly overpowering her is an overstatement when we know Athena II was tanking and regenerating each attack from Natsu thanks to Wendy’s magic. Also later in the fight we see Athena I fighting Athena II after the scan I dropped, allowing Natsu to fight without restraints against Duke, and yet he still lost.

Comparing each and every battle in 100 Years Quest alone, with Erza defeating people who have stronger narrative than Natsu’s enemies except for the Dragon Gods that he defeated thanks to certain conditions that I’ve already stated in the exception list, it’s completely reasonable to throw out the outlier argument for the recent Duke one considering Natsu just has way less magic power against Duke in the second round.

Most of the time, she is stronger than him, yes. And the times he is stronger than her have already been adressed.
Click to expand...
You thinking current Erza could beat Aldoron tells me all I need to know.

Notice you didn't respond to my Zeref point.

Natsu's enemies are almost always the arcs big bad so the Erza's enemies being stronger than Natsu is untrue 80% of the time.

Also, as for what Mashima said about Erza being stronger than Natsu, in last years July 7th live stream he also said he'd have no idea who'd win in a fight currently between natsu and laxus. So either he just contradicted himself, or those statements were made in the context of the beginning of the series.

Also Duke beat Natsu by taking away his magic, not in a straight up fight.
 
DemonGodMitchAubin said:
“She is very strong and stronger than the protagonist”

A completely unspecific statement that could refer to any forms of the two characters and could refer to any point of the story of Natsu and Erza. For all we know, he could be referring to the beginning of the story, where this is true, but this statement being applied to make Erza stronger than Natsu in every single arc is pure melarky… Especially when Natsu consistently has vastly superior feats… Especially with his best forms. The only thing Erza is consistently above is “Base” Natsu basically, but apart from that, Natsu consistently has feats that outright surpass Erza, especially in X792 and X793
Click to expand...


But in all seriousness, OP is wrong for the previously stated reasons and is cherrypicking a lot of things for the proposal.
 
Like there honestly isn't that many conditions to Natsu beating Aldoron, not any that give Natsu an advantage. Aldoron was only somewhat weakened and has two of his five seeds left. He was also highly resistant to fire.

Natsu just got brutally and fatally impaled and got back up despite his injuries and nuked Aldo so hard we literally see Erza with the rest of the guild ******** themselves at the site of the blast.

Aldo was weakened, but so was Natsu. There is also Natsu having fire comparable to Igneel so there's that.
 
To just add on more, I have many issues with the statement from Hiro. He uses it as a term to describe Erza in general, which doesn’t give us any noteworthy timeframe as opposed to his Gray statement, in which he says current Gray should be around as strong as Natsu. But the statement about Erza could mean in their first appearance, it could only mean Base to Base, it could mean peak to peak specifically at the time, but is he accounting for any of Natsu’s forms? Specifically Dragon Force or FDKM? He didn’t even say “Natsu” in the statement, so while I agree he probably means Natsu, the statement is so vague, it gives us zero point of reference. He also said this before the Gold Owl Arc even started, so it wouldn’t even apply to their latest feats… This is why we look to feats from the manga itself to give us the answers. As for narrative… The previous arc BASE Natsu was doing just as well against Dogramag as Suzaku was… The same Suzaku that both Misaki and Erza scale to… So Base Natsu is already on Peak Erza’s level in his Base Form… Then he goes on to beat Duke and overpower Athena 2, both of which are above the Signario Sisters… So like…

What’s more likely? Hiro’s statement is just an offhanded comment that may only apply to the weakest versions of Natsu and aren’t concrete enough to scale any version of Erza to any version of Natsu? Or the countless feats we have for these two showing Natsu is stronger are disregarded to support the Erza agenda?
 
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