The Ghost of the Uchiha versus Monkey Boy

[karo_senpaii]

I think there's definitely some confusion here which I'll explain.

The Haki page is pretty odd admittedly since it doesn't list each individual resistance it grants. Currently it's just listed as "being able to block out all Devil Fruit abilities."

I'd actually agree with you that this makes it incredibly difficult for people who aren't familiar with One Piece to understand properly. Awhile ago I suggested listing everything Haki is resistant to instead of "all devil fruit abilities." Since the latter is vague as **** but ultimately I was out voted. Imo the page should be updated to make it easier for those who aren't familiar with the verse to understand what resistances they actually have.

Haki negates devil fruit abilities it is different from being resistant. I pretty much explained it.
Madara isn't resistant to all jutsu existing because light and shadow style negate all ninjustu. Negation means the ability won't be used on him in the first place making it absolutely impossible for him to be resistant.
In the simplest way I can ask.

Is there any showing of someone shadow removed and because of haki they did not get erased?

And seriously Resistance to EE and Deconstruction are pretty significant abilities. If haki resist such it would definitely be on the page.

 

[Arkenis]

You're actually wrong. It is not supernatural willpower but just "willlpower". Oh wait so now spiritual energy is involved? If that's true then madara would just be straight up immune to luffy haki based attacks

Why would he be immuned? They still cause physical damage like a regular punch

 

[karo_senpaii]

Why would he be immuned? They still cause physical damage like a regular punch

Yeah no that's not what I was arguing about. Someone was arguing luffy can just pass haki through the tso covering and doesn't need to touch him. Either way you look at it, it ain't getting through

 

[LordGinSama]

Anyway Luffy still has counters to the TSO. Not sure why Naruto fans are acting like it's an indefinite concept erasure. TSO are limited in numbers and Madara can run out of them.


Might Guy was able to interact with them via sheer strength alone. Luffy on the other hand has more AP than Might Guy to my knowledge, and has the added benefit of being able to touch Madara without physical contact. If Might Guy who doesn't resist TSO can break through them with sheer strength with no resistance to EE then it can be assumed someone stronger than him can do the same.


Outside of that there are also Haki emissions which can simply eat the EE for him without Luffy ever needing to touch the TSO. They also can't be used at a great range, only going up to 70 meters which Luffy can easily evade. They can't male more TSO once destroyed or used up.

Haki negates devil fruit abilities it is different from being resistant.

Not really. Currently Buso is accepted to be resistance instead of power nullification.

Madara isn't resistant to all jutsu existing because light and shadow style negate all ninjustu.

To be perfectly honest i have no idea what this particular reply is supposed to mean. I wasn't referring to anything Madara can do, I was just elaborating on what Luffy can do so this has me lost.

Negation means the ability won't be used on him in the first place making it absolutely impossible for him to be resistant.
In the simplest way I can ask.

Is there any showing of someone shadow removed and because of haki they did not get erased?

Look at Law vs Doc-Q. Using Haki Law was able to reverse the effects of the DF hax. In this case it'd be the same effect with the Kage-Kage fruit.

And seriously Resistance to EE and Deconstruction are pretty significant abilities. If haki resist such it would definitely be on the page.

Agreed 100% hence why I suggested listing individual resistances for Haki but **** me ig lol. Anyway even without all those things Luffy still has the means to avoid them. Either by dodging them with Kenbunshoku Haki, using emissions to take the hit for him, or depending if the TSO are resistance to transmutation hax Luffy can just transmute them into rubber instead of them being composed of Yin + Yang.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Anyway Luffy still has counters to the TSO. Not sure why Naruto fans are acting like it's an indefinite concept erasure. TSO are limited in numbers and Madara can run out of them.


Might Guy was able to interact with them via sheer strength alone. Luffy on the other hand has more AP than Might Guy to my knowledge, and has the added benefit of being able to touch Madara without physical contact. If Might Guy who doesn't resist TSO can break through them with sheer strength with no resistance to EE then it can be assumed someone stronger than him can do the same.

I have to say is wow. Here I am taking my time to go over the other side of the argument to make sure I'm making sense. Didn't know we can just do this. Absolutely none of what you said above happened. Might guy never interacted with tso. Literally he had to not get hit by it. You can't overwhelm it with ap, you need resistance. Madara is immune to it. Might guy used madara as a meat shield to break it.

Outside of that there are also Haki emissions which can simply eat the EE for him without Luffy ever needing to touch the TSO. They also can't be used at a great range, only going up to 70 meters which Luffy can easily evade. They can't male more TSO once destroyed or used up.

And those emissions would be erased. You're still saying the same thing. And yes they have a range. So like luffy is gonna stay out of range for the whole fight? What's his way forward keep running? I will let you know that madara can just well go after him while being covered with his tso sword. And yes he can't make more. Okay like who's gonna destroy it?

Not really. Currently Buso is accepted to be resistance instead of power nullification.

I didn't dispute this. And luffy would be resistant to mora removing his shadow. That's does not give him resistance to the EE thar occurs when you don't have a shadow

To be perfectly honest i have no idea what this particular reply is supposed to mean. I wasn't referring to anything Madara can do, I was just elaborating on what Luffy can do so this has me lost.

Just explaining that madara negating is different from resisting

Look at Law vs Doc-Q. Using Haki Law was able to reverse the effects of the DF hax. In this case it'd be the same effect with the Kage-Kage fruit.

Getting more interesting but we are back to the same issue. Key word "the devil fruit hax" it's not the same as the kage-kage fruit. You know why? Coz EE isn't a hax of the fruit. The hax is controlling and removing your shadow. It just so happens that when you don't have a shadow you can't survive and you are immediately erased.
Key thing is the fruit does not erase you. The erasure is due to lack of a shadow. So haki won't have resistance to the EE because the EE got nothing to do with the fruit. In simpler terms if they find a way to remove a person's shadow in OP the person would be erased. Be it scientifically removed or any other way. So Haki won't stop someone that his shadow has already been removed from being erased. Hence it has resistance to the devil fruit ability (having it's shadow removed) but not a natural occurence that happens if you don't have a shadow (being erased)

Agreed 100% hence why I suggested listing individual resistances for Haki but **** me ig lol. Anyway even without all those things Luffy still has the means to avoid them. Either by dodging them with Kenbunshoku Haki, using emissions to take the hit for him, or depending if the TSO are resistance to transmutation hax Luffy can just transmute them into rubber instead of them being composed of Yin + Yang.

Both of them have ridiculous precog and speed boost. Eventually it's gonna hit sooner or later. You can't just say "he continues dodging forever " let's not forget he would run out of stamina first. Also yin-yang are essentially life force. You'd have to prove luffy can transmutation life force.

 

[LordGinSama]

I have to say is wow. Here I am taking my time to go over the other side of the argument to make sure I'm making sense. Didn't know we can just do this. Absolutely none of what you said above happened. Might guy never interacted with tso.

You sure about that buddy?

Literally he had to not get hit by it. You can't overwhelm it with ap, you need resistance. Madara is immune to it. Might guy used madara as a meat shield to break it.

Read above. He clearly made explicit contact with the TSO in one way or another.

And those emissions would be erased.

i want you to do me a favor and read my reply. I said they'd take the hit for him, not them being resistant. (Even though they logically are via the Haki page.)

You're still saying the same thing. And yes they have a range.

Of 70 meters which is ass.

So like luffy is gonna stay out of range for the whole fight?

Luffy can definitely stay out of the range of 70 meters. Back in East Blue he already had better range, and Ryou has a significant range advantage over TSO.

What's his way forward keep running? I will let you know that madara can just well go after him while being covered with his tso sword.

Which is meaningless as Luffy can attack him from a distance where Madara can't. TSO swords are made from the normal TSO so they'd have the same range.

And yes he can't make more. Okay like who's gonna destroy it?

Luffy via stronger attacks. Might Guy already interacted with a TSO and broke it.

I didn't dispute this. And luffy would be resistant to mora removing his shadow. That's does not give him resistance to the EE thar occurs when you don't have a shadow.

Once the shadow is removed the EE takes place. Haki can defend against the after effects of Devil Fruit's as even indirect effects of DF's are still based on the DF itself. MonkeyOfLife already provided scans for this above.

Just explaining that madara negating is different from resisting.

Fairm

Getting more interesting but we are back to the same issue. Key word "the devil fruit hax" it's not the same as the kage-kage fruit. You know why? Coz EE isn't a hax of the fruit.

it is.

Both of them have ridiculous precog and speed boost.

Madara doesn't have Precognition, only Luffy does here. Madara only has Analytical Prediction which is shit in comparison to something that reads minds on a vast level, sees the future, etc. Sharingan Prediction isn't anywhere near the level of actual Precognition like Kenbunshoku.

 

[karo_senpaii]

You sure about that buddy?

Read above. He clearly made explicit contact with the TSO in one way or another.

I honestly have no idea what's going on. You and I can see guy punch madara and it was madara body which has resistance to all tso hax that broke the tso and you're still arguing this. Like where exactly is the explicit contact. If this is the type of argument we are going to continue having then my brain is paining me. Like seriously I am very close to accusing you of straight ul lying very soon. What part isn't clear here?

i want you to do me a favor and read my reply. I said they'd take the hit for him, not them being resistant. (Even though they logically are via the Haki page.)

They can't take the hit for him. They would get erased and continue heading straight for him.

Of 70 meters which is ass.

Luffy can definitely stay out of the range of 70 meters. Back in East Blue he already had better range, and Ryou has a significant range advantage over TSO.

That's not the issue here. The issue is not one of luffy attacks can touch madara because they would get erased before they even touch him. so what you're saying is luffy would just stay out of range and do nothing. Then like there is no fight

Which is meaningless as Luffy can attack him from a distance where Madara can't. TSO swords are made from the normal TSO so they'd have the same range.

Are you like not understanding what I'm saying? I said if luffy moves out of range madara would fly and follow him while being wrapped by his tso sword

Luffy via stronger attacks. Might Guy already interacted with a TSO and broke it.

At no point did might guy ever do such thing. Bro is trying to give might guy resistance to tso

Once the shadow is removed the EE takes place. Haki can defend against the after effects of Devil Fruit's as even indirect effects of DF's are still based on the DF itself. MonkeyOfLife already provided scans for this above.

It's not based on the devil fruit. It is based on the fact that you are in the sun and you got no shadow.

Fairm

it is.

Madara doesn't have Precognition, only Luffy does here. Madara only has Analytical Prediction which is shit in comparison to something that reads minds on a vast level, sees the future, etc. Sharingan Prediction isn't anywhere near the level of actual Precognition like Kenbunshoku.

I meant to say extrasensory perception. And if you like just go to the profile and read it, you'd see there that aside from future sharingan can do every single thing. And madara also has sage mode so not just the sharingan. It really doesn't help luffy that madara can manipulation his perception.

Just wanted to add madara has almost 3x ap advantage over luffy durability. Should be able to take care of things with light fang

 

[LordGinSama]

I honestly have no idea what's going on. You and I can see guy punch madara and it was madara body which has resistance to all tso hax that broke the tso and you're still arguing this.

First of all, before i even begin i'm going to ask that you not behave like a typical Naruto fanboy on Comicvine from the year 2014. I never accused you of lying so i'd appreciate you do the same. You're literally came into the thread with some toxic behavior, so again I'll ask you to calm down instead of acting out of emotion. If I made a mistake then correct it, there's really no need to be an arse here. If I said something wrong then the mature way to reply would be to address said mistake instead of lashing out as you've been doing.


Anyway so you've just admitted that if Might Guy can punch Madara through a TSO without Madara using a TSO shield or simply using Limbo to evade that means Luffy would be capable of doing the same. If Might Guy who's both slower and weaker than Luffy, Luffy should be able to accomplish the same feat.

Like where exactly is the explicit contact. If this is the type of argument we are going to continue having then my brain is paining me. Like seriously I am very close to accusing you of straight ul lying very soon. What part isn't clear here?

Read above. You can explain things properly without acting like a Naruto simp within the comments section of a 2012 YouTube video. Again if I said something incorrect then simply correct it. There's absolutely zero reason to be upset here.

They can't take the hit for him. They would get erased and continue heading straight for him.

To which Luffy would dodge via Kenbunshoku. So they still can eat the hit for him rather than taking it head on, Kenbunshoku Haki users can evade attacks from Law who's attacks literally skip distance and are invisible on a spatial level. (Not to imply they can dodge infinite speed attacks but they can view the future of attacks more complex than the TSO.)

That's not the issue here. The issue is not one of luffy attacks can touch madara because they would get erased before they even touch him.

Luffy's can attack him from a much greater distance than Madara can utilize the TSO. The range severely limits the offensive application of the TSO's, leaving Madara with only defensive options. That's what I'm getting at, he can't really use them to attack Luffy given the range but he can defend himself with them. However that's assuming Buso is even effected to begin with as Luffy is already resistant to those abilities. If you disagree make a CRT, simple as that.

so what you're saying is luffy would just stay out of range and do nothing. Then like there is no fight.

Literally not what I'm saying at all, I'd really appreciate it if you were to stop intentionally misconstruing my points here. It's explicitly obvious I meant when it comes to dodging and attacking via Ryou, something that has no matter to deconstruct along with Buso being accepted as resistance to EE. So you can either make a CRT to remove it or accept it to be succinct.

Are you like not understanding what I'm saying? I said if luffy moves out of range madara would fly and follow him while being wrapped by his tso sword.

I understand your point perfectly, if anything you aren't understanding mine. Even if Madara follows Luffy, there's nothing stopping Luffy from putting more distance between them and attacking from there.

At no point did might guy ever do such thing. Bro is trying to give might guy resistance to tso.

I'm getting increasingly more tired and sick of this needless attitude from you and how you continue to intentionally misinterprete shit. I was arguing against Might Guy not having resistance to TSO's , but as you've explained (albeit like a Naruto arsehole from 2013.) Might Guy hit his body instead.

It's not based on the devil fruit. It is based on the fact that you are in the sun and you got no shadow.

It's based on the Devil Fruit as the Devil Fruit ability is to literally tear the shadow / soul of the opponent. After that when exposed to the sun, the existence as a whole is erased.

I meant to say extrasensory perception. And if you like just go to the profile and read it, you'd see aside from see there future sharingan can do every single thing.

Not to the same extent. Feel free to post anyone with a Sharingan reading the minds of thousands of people passively, still being able to predict things while blind (making the Sharingan useless.) Sharingan abilities literally requires the use of functional eyes while Kenbunshoku Haki does not.

And madara also has sage mode so not just the sharingan.

Fair enough.

It really doesn't help luffy that madara can manipulation his perception.

Via Genjutsu right? Man you might as well be Sam Morrel if you think I'm getting involved with a Genjutsu debate here.

 

[PatatesR]

Containing concepts =/= erasing concepts.

Limbo clones aren't protecting him at all. Luffy doesn't need to look into Madara's eyes either. He can precog, see that Madara has won and then not look and rely on his sensory abilities to finish the job. And again, Madara won't get a chance to shield himself via TSOs because he in character uses that after taking a hit because Madara enjoys fighting, and auto-assumes that he’s stronger than his opponent.

I think you misunderstood me, I just meant that Ee can delete abstract things...


It would be ridiculous to evaluate Madara only in terms of "Guy war". If you look at the aftermath of the battle, you can see Madara fighting against Naruto and Sasuke by dodging and defending.

 

[LordGinSama]

I think you misunderstood me, I just meant that Ee can delete abstract things...

EE in Naruto is not and will never be accepted as being able to erase abstractions lol

 

[PatatesR]

EE in Naruto is not and will never be accepted as being able to erase abstractions lol

Madara's Ee can erase abstract things like souls lol

I think I need to inform you op fans

 

[Kidkinsey]

Luffy has no reason to do that at all, he only ever did that so his opponent didn't escape and go after his friends... He also instantly switch his body proportions to huge and base

Haki negates accelerated natural/biological regen... So if his regen comes from accelarating/enhancing is base natural regen, it gets negated

When did it change from supernatural? Regardless madara has medical ninjutsu so he can just heal any damage and he's kept it pushing and fought even with just the upper half of his body so the inner damage by ryou isn't keeping him down

 

[Kachon123]

Voting Luffy.

He's far faster with his several amps, and will not be touched by any attack Madara dishes out due to his Kenbun Haki. With Kenbun Haki, Luffy would also be able to avoid the Limbo Clones or simply dodge through instinct. Since Luffy is capable of harming Madara with physical attacks (look at Madara vs Guy), attacks such as White Star Gun, Red Roc, Roc Gun, and Red Haws would be able to likely vaporize, or at least severely burn Madara due to them being able to burn Kaidou, and because these attacks are coated in Buso Haki, Madara would be unable to regenerate from them.

Luffy can avoid getting taken out by Genjutsu with his Kenbun. Because it's stated to be above things of the mind such as imagination (thoughts), it would operate above mental illusions like Genjutsu, allowing him to bypass potency layers entirely.

 

[Kidkinsey]

Perception/mind hax has worked on observation haki users so it definitely isn't some auto mind hax defense button. Caesar used hallucinations on katakuri and oven, tricked them into attacking eachother
Uta mind haxed dozens of haki users and they didn't instantly recognize and mont'd illusions worked on luffy

 

[SlendVeny]

Perception/mind hax has worked on observation haki users so it definitely isn't some auto mind hax defense button. Caesar used hallucinations on katakuri and oven, tricked them into attacking eachother

Pretty sure that was gas, way different than genjutsu.

Uta mind haxed dozens of haki users and they didn't instantly recognize

And yet none of Shanks' crew was affected, and I'm pretty sure Kizaru wasn't either.

and mont'd illusions worked on luffy

This might just be one of those DF effects that scales above Kenbun, like how the Clear fruit is invisible even if you can see invisible things.

 

[Kidkinsey]

Pretty sure that was gas, way different than genjutsu.

And yet none of Shanks' crew was affected, and I'm pretty sure Kizaru wasn't either.

This might just be one of those DF effects that scales above Kenbun, like how the Clear fruit is invisible even if you can see invisible things.

It can be gas but the end goal still results in perception manipulation. Kat wasn't able to tell he was taking his brother due to his senses being altered

If they weren't effected they didn't hear the song. Luffy law sanji etc were all effected

 

[SlendVeny]

It can be gas but the end goal still results in perception manipulation. Kat wasn't able to tell he was taking his brother due to his senses being altered

Wasn't my point. It isn't like he has to look directly into Madara's eyes, but Katakuri can't just not inhale.

If they weren't effected they didn't hear the song. Luffy law sanji etc were all effected

I guess. Probably non canon tho.

 

[Kidkinsey]

I know how madara and Caesar initiate their perception manipulation is different. But if haki just allows your mind to not be fooled it'll still counter it and it didn't

Wasn't my point. It isn't like he has to look directly into Madara's eyes, but Katakuri can't just not inhale.

I guess. Probably non canon tho.

The movie technically isn't canon but we used abilities from it (such as the cosmic awareness) so I think it's far game to use the uta example

 

[SlendVeny]

I know how madara and Caesar initiate their perception manipulation is different. But if haki just allows your mind to not be fooled it'll still counter it and it didn't

Katakuri didn't even use his Buso lol.

The movie technically isn't canon but we used abilities from it (such as the cosmic awareness) so I think it's far game to use the uta example

We used the abilities from the databook. Yeah.

 

[Kidkinsey]

Katakuri didn't even use his Buso lol.

We used the abilities from the databook. Yeah.

The tricks of the mind thing refers to observation not armament

 

[SlendVeny]

The tricks of the mind thing refers to observation not armament

Ah. He wasn't shown using that either, but I think it's preventative, not a negation.

 

[speedster352]

So how does luffy counter planet wide genjutsu?

 

[karo_senpaii]

First of all, before i even begin i'm going to ask that you not behave like a typical Naruto fanboy on Comicvine from the year 2014. I never accused you of lying so i'd appreciate you do the same. You're literally came into the thread with some toxic behavior, so again I'll ask you to calm down instead of acting out of emotion. If I made a mistake then correct it, there's really no need to be an arse here. If I said something wrong then the mature way to reply would be to address said mistake instead of lashing out as you've been doing.

I'm just going to ignore all the stuff that are not part of the argument. Very unnecessary. You interpreting me as hostile is not my fault. That's your flawed interpretation. I also never accused you of lying. I said "I'm very close to accusing you of lying" asides from that I have not gone of topic once . The reason why I said that was because I was repeatedly explaining something and it and at a point it was more of you know what I'm saying but like just choose to deny it. That is pretty close to lying but anyways back on topic. to be clear I actually thought when you brought that scan you would have read at least a few pages before and after to like get the gist of what's happening. That's what I do though. So I thought you had all this information and was confused why you still said what you said

Anyway so you've just admitted that if Might Guy can punch Madara through a TSO without Madara using a TSO shield or simply using Limbo to evade that means Luffy would be capable of doing the same. If Might Guy who's both slower and weaker than Luffy, Luffy should be able to accomplish the same feat.

You're really making it hard to have a conversation with you.
Your logic was luffy can overpower tso with sheer ap. Of course tso can be overcome with ap if you have resistance to it's hax. The issue is immediately you touch it you get erased if you are not immune. Might guy attacked without touching it. How did he do so? Kakashi used kamui To remove the tso out of the equation entirely. So madara was just wide open and Guy just punched him. Now madara himself is immune to tso effects so when Guy slammed him on it , it was broken. You're trying to paint a scenario where luffy can do same. Alright how? Who is going open the front of the tso staff completely wrapped around madara for him to be able to attack.
And madara didn't use limbo because he wasn't even expecting Kakashi to use kamui on his tso.
So when might guy suddenly appeared in his front it was very sudden. Coupled with the fact he actually wanted to enjoy his fight with Guy. Actually the entire fight he decided not to use limbo.
And luffy was not faster than Guy. That's on you to prove. Guy was faster than madara a great deal even with second step,and each step boost speed and by that time it was the 5th step. Speed is equalised here and luffy has amps more than madara sure but like both him and guy are faster than madara. Don't know how you came to that conclusion

To which Luffy would dodge via Kenbunshoku. So they still can eat the hit for him rather than taking it head on, Kenbunshoku Haki users can evade attacks from Law who's attacks literally skip distance and are invisible on a spatial level. (Not to imply they can dodge infinite speed attacks but they can view the future of attacks more complex than the TSO.)

Sorry but what I keeps seeing is luffy will continually dodging until.... like I'm not seeing any win con's for him here . He's gonna run out of stamina soon

Luffy's can attack him from a much greater distance than Madara can utilize the TSO. The range severely limits the offensive application of the TSO's, leaving Madara with only defensive options. That's what I'm getting at, he can't really use them to attack Luffy given the range but he can defend himself with them. However that's assuming Buso is even effected to begin with as Luffy is already resistant to those abilities. If you disagree make a CRT, simple as that.

Once again it is not resistant.

Literally not what I'm saying at all, I'd really appreciate it if you were to stop intentionally misconstruing my points here. It's explicitly obvious I meant when it comes to dodging and attacking via Ryou, something that has no matter to deconstruct along with Buso being accepted as resistance to EE. So you can either make a CRT to remove it or accept it to be succinct.

Having no matter is irrelevant. Tso erased susanoo which has no matter and is also the embodiment of the spirit.
And buso is not accepted as EE. You are yet to link me to a single crt or where it is on the profile

I understand your point perfectly, if anything you aren't understanding mine. Even if Madara follows Luffy, there's nothing stopping Luffy from putting more distance between them and attacking from there.

And he keeps following him. This is becoming a hide and seek game

I'm getting increasingly more tired and sick of this needless attitude from you and how you continue to intentionally misinterprete shit. I was arguing against Might Guy not having resistance to TSO's , but as you've explained (albeit like a Naruto arsehole from 2013.) Might Guy hit his body instead.

Once again I'd focus on the actual arguments. I never misinterpreted your point. Like don't you get sarcasm? And luffy can't hit madara body like might guy did because the damn tso is wrapped around him

It's based on the Devil Fruit as the Devil Fruit ability is to literally tear the shadow / soul of the opponent. After that when exposed to the sun, the existence as a whole is erased.

Great so the erasure is not the devil fruit ability. It's just what naturally happens to someone who has no shadow exposed to the sun. I have gone over this repeatedly. Haki users would be resistant to having their shadows removed, simple and short

Not to the same extent. Feel free to post anyone with a Sharingan reading the minds of thousands of people passively, still being able to predict things while blind (making the Sharingan useless.) Sharingan abilities literally requires the use of functional eyes while Kenbunshoku Haki does not.

So it has a wider range, that's cool. Not quite sure why reading minds is relevant here. And the said madara in question was able to fully do the latter while blind. Have you forgotten revived blind madara. And any other stuff madara has sage mode so make up for it. The only thing is madara can't see the future.

Via Genjutsu right? Man you might as well be Sam Morrel if you think I'm getting involved with a Genjutsu debate here.

Don't even know what you mean

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

I forgot about this.. anyway Madara fra
I also added everyone's votes, I hope I haven't forgotten anyone

 

[karo_senpaii]

At this point we should just vote. because it seems this argument would just be circular

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I'd actually agree with you that this makes it incredibly difficult for people who aren't familiar with One Piece to understand properly. Awhile ago I suggested listing everything Haki is resistant to instead of "all devil fruit abilities." Since the latter is vague as **** but ultimately I was out voted. Imo the page should be updated to make it easier for those who aren't familiar with the verse to understand what resistances they actually have.

Yee but like who is gonna update the devil fruits ability page everytime and also add every single ability, I remember tempest made a whole devil fruit abilities page but that is currently very outdated, even the current devil fruits page is outdated af, so there’s not much we can do about it I feel like

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Not really. Currently Buso is accepted to be resistance instead of power nullification.

It’s also power null for the higher tier arm haki

Initial Stage​

Resistance to

• Devil Fruit abilities (Buso Haki has been stated to be able to block devil fruit abilities[57], seen when Doflamingo blocked Trafalgar Law's Amputate[58] and when Trafalgar Law stated that his Shambles ability would not work against those with superior Buso to him[59])

Intermediate Stage​

• Devil Fruit Negation (Intense enough Haki can counteract and negate Devil Fruit abilities, seen when Trafalgar Law negated the effects of the Feminization Disease from the Sick-Sick Fruit[63])

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

When did it change from supernatural?

Was never supernatural regen... It was; capable of negating non-natural regeneration but was misinterpreted since it meant natural as in the regen you are born with

Regardless madara has medical ninjutsu so he can just heal any damage and he's kept it pushing and fought even with just the upper half of his body so the inner damage by ryou isn't keeping him down

That won't work, Marco's flames also heal

Fire Manipulation (Can control blue fire that has healing abilities in him and in others

 

[SlendVeny]

So how does luffy counter planet wide genjutsu?

He closes his eyes.

 

[speedster352]

He closes his eyes.

That’s not how the IT works if the light hits you you fall under the genjutsu and it’s planet wide. How would luffy know to close his eyes anyway?

 

[SlendVeny]

Voting Luffy via goated Haki and DF powers.

 

[SlendVeny]

That’s not how the IT works if the light hits you you fall under the genjutsu and it’s planet wide.

I see. Luffy can move in his sleep anyway, so I doubt IT would stop him.

How would luffy know to close his eyes anyway?

Future Sight.

 

[SlendVeny]

I see. Luffy can move in his sleep anyway, so I doubt IT would stop him.

How many layers does Infinite Tsukuyomi have?

 

[Testarossa002]

Anyway so you've just admitted that if Might Guy can punch Madara through a TSO without Madara using a TSO shield or simply using Limbo to evade that means Luffy would be capable of doing the same. If Might Guy who's both slower and weaker than Luffy, Luffy should be able to accomplish the same feat

There's missing context
Guy could only touch madara through the shield because Kakashi made an opening with Kamui
Something luffy does not have
He didn't even attempt to use limbo against guy
Don't really care about the match up itself
Just pointing that out

 

[Godernet]

i didnt actually vote yet btw i just came in earlier to point out the EE resistance argument was goofy ahh.


what are the main arguments for both sides?

 

[LordGinSama]

Madara's Ee can erase abstract things like souls lol

That's not abstraction erasure. That would be along the lines of erasing concepts.

I think I need to inform you op fans

"You OP fans"

Salt detected.

 

[LordGinSama]

I'm just going to ignore all the stuff that are not part of the argument. Very unnecessary. You interpreting me as hostile is not my fault. That's your flawed interpretation.

Save me the excuses Karo. I have seen you act like this in multiple Naruto threads, this is far from the first time this has happened with you. That's not "unnecessary", that's called getting called out for hostile behavior and I'm obviously not the only one here that thought your comments are hostile.


also how are you gonna say you'll ignore the argument then address it seconds later?

I also never accused you of lying. I said "I'm very close to accusing you of lying"

That's literally the same thing.

Asides from that I have not gone of topic once . The reason why I said that was because I was repeatedly explaining something and it and at a point it was more of you know what I'm saying but like just choose to deny it. That is pretty close to lying but anyways back on topic.

It's very ironic your out here throwing accusations of lying while lying yourself. You never gave an explanation "several times" you made one reply in regards to the Might Guy subject to which I even agreed that I was wrong. That happens, people make mistakes buddy.

to be clear I actually thought when you brought that scan you would have read at least a few pages before and after to like get the gist of what's happening. That's what I do though. So I thought you had all this information and was confused why you still said what you said.

No, I've stated dozens of times on the wiki that I haven't fully read Naruto. Plan on doing it in the future however.

You're really making it hard to have a conversation with you.

The feeling is VERY mutual Karo.

Your logic was luffy can overpower tso with sheer ap.

Keyword "was" not sure why you continue to hyperfocus on this point whenever ive already said i was wrong there.

Of course tso can be overcome with ap if you have resistance to it's hax. The issue is immediately you touch it you get erased if you are not immune. Might guy attacked without touching it. How did he do so? Kakashi used kamui To remove the tso out of the equation entirely.

Kamui was only used to teleport the TSO's away from Guy, after which Might Guy used his own speed and strength advantage to slam Madara into his own TSO. (To which he could have literally wrapped around himself or used a Limbo clone.)

So madara was just wide open and Guy just punched him.

Luffy is faster and stronger than the both of them. If Might Guy was able to accomplish such a thing by blitzing Madara before he could defend himself then so can Luffy via better speed amps.

Now madara himself is immune to tso effects so when Guy slammed him on it , it was broken. You're trying to paint a scenario where luffy can do same. Alright how? Who is going open the front of the tso staff completely wrapped around madara for him to be able to attack.

By doing what Guy did? Blitzing the shit out of him before he can react? Also pretty sure Madara doesn't wrap himself in TSO's 24/7.

And madara didn't use limbo because he wasn't even expecting Kakashi to use kamui on his tso.

Not sure how that changes anything. Blud got drop kicked in his ******* back and never stopped to go "hey maybe I should have a limbo clone grab me".

So when might guy suddenly appeared in his front it was very sudden.

Oh you must mean like how Luffy can do via speed amps? Honestly your shooting yourself in the foot here.

Coupled with the fact he actually wanted to enjoy his fight with Guy.

But he wouldn't enjoy fighting a literal god?

Actually the entire fight he decided not to use limbo.

That's even worse.

And luffy was not faster than Guy. That's on you to prove.

Karo just stop. Might Guy is Sub-Rel vs Luffy's FTL. However since speed is equalized base speed would be the same but Luffy has several blitz worthy speed amps. I don't need to prove it since the profile for Luffy and Guy already do. (Unless you think Sub-Rel is now somehow faster than FTL.)

Guy was faster than madara a great deal even with second step,and each step boost speed and by that time it was the 5th step.

Madara was also sub-Rel.

Speed is equalised here and luffy has amps more than madara sure but like both him and guy are faster than madara. Don't know how you came to that conclusion.

On god I shouldn't even need to explain this to a full grown ass man.

If Might Guy, Who's slower and lacks as many methods of amping his speed as Luffy could blitz Madara then so can Luffy. Speed being equalized doesn't stop Luffy from getting faster, and his speed amps are greater than Might Guy's which were used to blitz Madara.

Sorry but what I keeps seeing is luffy will continually dodging until.... like I'm not seeing any win con's for him here . He's gonna run out of stamina soon.

He doesn't need to. Also does this Madara even have infinite stamina? Thought that was for Edo only.

Once again it is not resistant.

Once again it is, as accepted on the profiles so you can make a CRT or just shut up at this point.

Having no matter is irrelevant. Tso erased susanoo which has no matter and is also the embodiment of the spirit.

The Susanoo is literally made of Chakra, I.E a form of matter. Susanoo's are not intangible or some type of spiritual abstraction. It's still very much a physical construction containing matter. If they didn't have matter they'd be intangible which isn't the case.

And buso is not accepted as EE.

..... You smoking that good shit rn huh? I literally never said Buso I'd EE.

You are yet to link me to a single crt or where it is on the profile.

"Can block out all Devil Fruit abilities." If Law can reverse Doc Q's DF after it had already effected him with Buso then Haki would be able to do the same with the Kage-Kage no Mi.

And he keeps following him. This is becoming a hide and seek game.

To which Luffy keeps evading. Also assuming Madara can match his speed.

Once again I'd focus on the actual arguments. I never misinterpreted your point. Like don't you get sarcasm? And luffy can't hit madara body like might guy did because the damn tso is wrapped around him.

The TSO doesn't start off instantly around him. And I do understand sarcasm but I don't appreciate it, especially with how you've been so far.

Great so the erasure is not the devil fruit ability. It's just what naturally happens to someone who has no shadow exposed to the sun. I have gone over this repeatedly. Haki users would be resistant to having their shadows removed, simple and short.

And as we've explained, the EE is literally apart of the Devil Fruit. If a Haki user gets affected by the Kage-Kage no Mi (as seen with Doc-Q) they'd be able to reverse the effects of the sun erasure by activating Buso.

So it has a wider range, that's cool. Not quite sure why reading minds is relevant here.

How is mind reading NOT relevant? As far as i'm aware it's something Madara can't actually counter.

And the said madara in question was able to fully do the latter while blind.

That was done via experience. In that instance he was not using Sharingan Prediction since it'd be impossible to predict with the Sharingan if your blind.

Have you forgotten revived blind madara. And any other stuff madara has sage mode so make up for it. The only thing is madara can't see the future.

Sage Mode is like Low level Kenbunshoku tbh, and when was Madara ever able to read minds without casting a Genjutsu?

Don't even know what you mean

He's a comedian. I'm saying your funny if you think I'm touching a Genjutsu debate on the wiki here lmfao.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Yes , message more ginsama, MORE!!

surpass me!!!

 

[Godernet]

so a couple of things. before i make an actual vote,

1). Madara can use Infinite Tsukuyomi with his own eyes or by looking at the moon to make the moonlight shine across the entire planet with the power of his GJ. It doesn't matter if you hide or close your eyes, just being touched by the light hits you with the jutsu unless you have the Six Path Rinnegan which gives superior GJ resistance to Infinite Tsukuyomi's Potency, or are shrouded in the Susanoo of a SP Rinnegan user. This jutsu was meant to hit everyone on the planet simultaneously even people in their homes sleeping. If Madara uses the moon variant, Luffy will be hit regardless of where he goes or what he does unless he leaves the planet before the light hits him somehow(which is something Luffy can't and won't do.)

2). Kenbun does not matter at all to SP Tier Genjutsu. Even normal Sharingan completely sees through GJ, even when done by other Sharingan Users. Yet Mangekyo Sharingan gj ignores your ability to ignore an ability. That's how a layer works. just being "above the mind"(which is flowery at best) is irrelevant to a layered ability

Layers > High Resistance every time. Because a Layered ability will ignore your resistance against something as if they don't exist rather than directly clash against said resistance.

3). Haki doesn't negate all DF abilities in existence. It can negate certain abilities of DFS or even just diminish their effectiveness and at other times it can't. An example is Oden not just nulling the Barrier Fruits' powers just because fodder is using it, An Admiral not being able to break Bird Cage(yada yada he wanted to trust that the SHs could accomplish it to push his anti-shichibukai agenda and because of what Smoker told him about alabasta ), even Law getting out of Doc Q turning him into a woman required him to funnel Haki into his body after the ability had already affected him, Assuming that Haki should give EE resistance, Soul Resistance, or even Temporal Resistances just because those DFs exist without any interaction between Haki and the fruit is just plain goonery. Haki negging/dulling DFs doesn't mean it will interact with every fruit the same way.

4). Haki isn't even accepted as having resistances like the ones being described on Luffy's profile or the Haki page. What is accepted is that Buso acts as DF Power Null. And if that is the case for verse battles it should be treated as either a weakness of DFs that Haki can exploit(not resistances) or for out of verse should only be capable of negating the abilities of other verses that have a similar Power System to DFs if we go by SBA.

5). 8th Gates Guy breaks one by kicking Madara into one after Kakashi Kamui's the front away and again when he warps space while sprinting towards Madara. But he never physically touches one. Not to mention Madara can choose when TSO functions as balls of death as shown when he stabs Sakura and she doesn't get erased and when Obito is still not in control of his mind his TSOs aren't erasing everything they touch yet. TSOs, when used normally can't be touched by anyone that doesn't have SP Chakra..

 

[Testarossa002]

Kamui was only used to teleport the TSO's away from Guy, after which Might Guy used his own speed and strength advantage to slam Madara into his own TSO. (To which he could have literally wrapped around himself or used a Limbo clone.)

Nah
Order of events
Guy is rushing at Madara
Madara sends like 4 orbs to intercept Guy
Minato teleports in and bfrs the orbs
In the timeframe of the last two events, Madara surrounds himself with the remaining TSOs
Kakashi then uses Kamui to open a hole in the shield granting Guy direct access to madara