The MUCH NEEDED Super Saiyan Multiplier Revision

[BlastX]

The Manga scaling blog was already changed to reflect this thread changes, the one that's left is the Toei blog.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I don't see any need to make a new thread for the scaling, though you'd probably want to make your own blogs for the scaling chain unless you want to wait for the blogs' creators

I'd rather make my own blogs, yes. Although a new AP scaling revision is currently going on, so I don't know if I should wait for that.

 

[Ednaxel2]

The Manga scaling blog was already changed to reflect this thread changes, the one that's left is the Toei blog.

What about the speed blogs?

 

[BlastX]

What about the speed blogs?

Those need adjustments too I think.

 

[Omegabronic]

Since the DBS anime one currently used is mine, i will adjust it accordinly later today

 

[Omegabronic]

Since the DBS anime one currently used is mine, i will adjust it accordinly later today

DBS Conservative Speed Multipliers Recalc edition

vsbattles.fandom.com

Edited the Super Anime speed blog with the multipliers

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

So the multipler would probably get scrapped since SSJ2 is 2x regular SSJ

the entire premise of ssj2 = 100x is that the "super saiyan" they're talking about is regular grade 1, when it's entirely possible that it's 2x stronger than what they refer to as super saiyan at the time, AKA grade 4, which is called super saiyan from that point on and is technically a regular "super saiyan" form

 

[BlastX]

Yes...and Grade 4 is just mastered Grade 1, it doesn't have any additional power boost or anything.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

It's honestly pretty funny that Grade 2&3 only made Vegeta and Trunks like x1.5 stronger

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Yes...and Grade 4 is just mastered Grade 1, it doesn't have any additional power boost or anything.

can you prove it has no additional power boost? because the statements Cloverdragon brought up would make it seem like they did

 

[Ednaxel2]

It's honestly pretty funny that Grade 2&3 only made Vegeta and Trunks like x1.5 stronger

I mean the gap between Cui and Namek Saga Vegeta is 1.33x yet Vegeta easily kill me lol

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

It's honestly pretty funny that Grade 2&3 only made Vegeta and Trunks like x1.5 stronger

Not exactly tbh, 2x only seems small when PLs are low,

For example, namek saga Goku had a max PL of 150m, ssj2 would be 300m, grade 2 could easily take him to 200m and grade 3 could take his AP to 250m, less than 2x but still huge jumps. Different btw ssj2 and grade 3 here is 1.2, still easily a stomp range




But I do wish they gave grade 4 a higher boost than just regular ssj

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

can you prove it has no additional power boost? because the statements Cloverdragon brought up would make it seem like they did

It proved the very opposite of that. The wiki currently doesn't accept G4 as stronger than G1, so you create a CRT if you want that to change

 

[BlastX]

Not exactly tbh, 2x only seems small when PLs are low,

For example, namek saga Goku had a max PL of 150m, ssj2 would be 300m, grade 2 could easily take him to 200m and grade 3 could take his AP to 250m, less than 2x but still huge jumps. Different btw ssj2 and grade 3 here is 1.2, still easily a stomp range




But I do wish they gave grade 4 a higher boost than just regular ssj

It doesn't need to, the exact point of the form is to not increase power, but to conserve it and not waste it like Grade 2 & 3

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

the entire premise of ssj2 = 100x is that the "super saiyan" they're talking about is regular grade 1, when it's entirely possible that it's 2x stronger than what they refer to as super saiyan at the time, AKA grade 4, which is called super saiyan from that point on and is technically a regular "super saiyan" form

The wiki currently accepts Grade 4 being equal to Grade 1 in terms of power.

I can see Grade 3 staying for the anime though since it’s clearcut and no contradictions.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

so you create a CRT if you want that to change

Oh, please do.

 

[RethPo]

....Okay so im just confused here since the threads still open. Ssj2 gohan is said here to be even stronger than the 2x multiplier from the cell fight due to rage boosts. Yet his base is still scaled as 100x less than his ssj2 form in his profile? That doesnt add up.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

....Okay so im just confused here since the threads still open. Ssj2 gohan is said here to be even stronger than the 2x multiplier from the cell fight due to rage boosts. Yet his base is still scaled as 100x less than his ssj2 form in his profile? That doesnt add up.

As Null explained, Rage Boost doesn't multiply Gohan's base power, instead it unleashes it even more. His SSJ2 max strength is still 100x his base max strength. Point is, we never see this unleashed states in any other form.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

....Okay so im just confused here since the threads still open. Ssj2 gohan is said here to be even stronger than the 2x multiplier from the cell fight due to rage boosts. Yet his base is still scaled as 100x less than his ssj2 form in his profile? That doesnt add up.

Also I'm pretty sure his base just scales above Base Goku, which ends up being 1/100th of his SSJ2 power (which is downplayed to the minimum multiplier), there is no downscaling going on here. Since we also axed the 10x multiplier for Grade 3, this means powerhouse cell also loses it.

 

[RethPo]

Uhuh. So basically the profile technically lists rage boosted base gohan...... im also confused about ssj goku, since didnt he damage cell several different times? Yet hes listed weaker than base gohan at the same time.

 

[BlastX]

He's below Base Gohan clear cut, Cell was even holding back a ton against him, Goku shouldn't scale to Cell (The Instant Kamehameha is a different thing since he he caught him by surprise).

 

[Chariot190]

He's below Gohan, but I'm not so sure the gap is that big when talking same forms (The scaling would imply a 50-100x gap, in the same form).

Cell definitely was sandbagging, but not that much, he was still putting forth some semblance of effort and his fight with Goku did drain him, it's kinda why Goku gave him a senzu because, as Goku states, "Cell is exhausted", upon which Cell takes, goes oh damn that's that good shit, and his ki spikes back up. If Cell actually was over 50x stronger than SSJ1 Goku at the time, he wouldn't have exhausted any stamina or ki, and as such, a senzu would have done literally nothing.

There does seem to be some sort of scaling discrepancy going on. Not sure if this is the best place to discuss it, but something doesn't add up.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm unsure if the "Supreme Kai being comparable to Cell saga Goku" is reliable. But he is officially stronger than Super Namekian Piccolo while weaker than even the base forms of Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan during Buu saga.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Uhuh. So basically the profile technically lists rage boosted base gohan...... im also confused about ssj goku, since didnt he damage cell several different times? Yet hes listed weaker than base gohan at the same time.

... No he's not?

Base Gohan > Base Goku, not SSJ Goku.

I'm unsure if the "Supreme Kai being comparable to Cell saga Goku" is reliable. But he is officially stronger than Super Namekian Piccolo while weaker than even the base forms of Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan during Buu saga.

It's not currently applied, so nope. I also think it's baloney since it's just more of a suggestion than a statement. Cell Saga Gohan is stronger than SSJ Trunks and Vegeta in Base, not anything else.

 

[RethPo]

... No he's not?

Base Gohan > Base Goku, not SSJ Goku.

Uh... it currently says on the profiles that master super saiyan goku cell saga is star level. While base cell saga gohan is large star level+ for being 100 times weaker than ss2.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

SSJ Goku can't downscale from SPC, while Gohan can, soooooo

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Cell definitely was sandbagging, but not that much, he was still putting forth some semblance of effort and his fight with Goku did drain him, it's kinda why Goku gave him a senzu because, as Goku states, "Cell is exhausted", upon which Cell takes, goes oh damn that's that good shit, and his ki spikes back up. If Cell actually was over 50x stronger than SSJ1 Goku at the time, he wouldn't have exhausted any stamina or ki, and as such, a senzu would have done literally nothing.

IIRC he's stated to be comparable to Goku at that point, so cell might've gotten some type of Zenkai

 

[Ednaxel2]

SSJ Goku can't downscale from SPC, while Gohan can, soooooo

This is the main thing, Goku just has nothing that can get him near Gohan's level, Gohan's stronger than him even when calm, Perfect Cell was holding back against him yet SPC was overpowered by SSJ2 Gohan at half power, etc. Literally nothing supports it except with the mindset that "well he can't be THAT much weaker"

 

[RethPo]

Gonna be honest, i dont think perfect cell holding back is gonna make him get half his torso blown apart twice by somebody supposedly tens of thousands of times weaker than him even when bracing for the attack

 

[BlastX]

He got him by surprise, Cell didn't think Goku was actually gonna risk destroying the Earth and he didn't expect him to IT.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

There's also the thing ya'll are missing:
a super charged Kamehameha can also be an amped attack

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

A super charged kamehameha isn't the same thing as firing a regular kick and punch. I admit it's not like a 23485234859817982439823174x amp to use a kamehameha, that is true, but at the same time it is certainly an amp

 

[RethPo]

soooooo..... make him and vegeta 4-b with supercharged attacks so it makes more sense? If they can amp themselves mid fight that much then i dont see why it wouldnt be listed

 

[BlastX]

Not really, again, it bears repeating that he caught Cell by surprise, hell we see later Cell was able to cripple Gohan when he received an attack he couldn't properly block.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Actually how is Perfect Cell stronger than SSJ Gohan, but SPC is weaker than SSJ2 Gohan's half power?

 

[Lacku]

There's also the thing ya'll are missing:
a super charged Kamehameha can also be an amped attack

If that's the case shouldn't that be in his AP section? Like "At least Dwarf Star level, Star level as a Super Saiyan (He was the second strongest fighter at the time[38] even at only 50% of his power[38]. Fought against Perfect Cell, though Cell wasn't fighting at full power), up to Solar System level with Kamehameha (Nearly killed Perfect Cell with the Instant Kamehameha)"

 

[Lacku]

Not really, again, it bears repeating that he caught Cell by surprise, hell we see later Cell was able to cripple Gohan when he received an attack he couldn't properly block.

Both Cell and Gohan at that moment were 4-B though. It's not unbelievable that he was able to cripple him. The difference between Perfect Cell and what we have SSJ Goku down as is far greater than that so it wouldn't work the same way.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Star

why the f*ck would we use that crusty old scan that doesn't even have everything translated

 

[Lacku]

why the f*ck would we use that crusty old scan that doesn't even have everything translated

don't ask me that's just the way the profile is right now

 

[Chariot190]

Having just read through the arc, I can see what the issue is.

Right off the bat, non-enraged SSJ1 Gohan, sure as hell isn't 50x SSJ1 Goku, he just objectively isn't.
SSJ1 Goku and Held-back PC Cell are about comparable, Cell has an edge but it's negligible given we know 2x enables you to no-sell in DB and Cell ended up explicitly exhausted and harmed after the fight, so he held back to less than 2x Goku.

Afterward, PC actively wounds and draws blood from a calm SSJ1 Gohan, harms and injures him, all while turning around and going "Hey Goku, he sucks, come back and fight me!", without powering up to any notable degree.
A PC that Goku is still capable of fighting, is able to actively injure SSJ1 Gohan. SSJ1 Gohan is indeed stronger and he isn't fighting back, but he sure as hell ain't holding back his durability just so he can suffer.

Details and extra points aside, this tells us that Calm SSJ1 Gohan is less than 2x PC, and PC is less than 2x SSJ1 Goku, meaning, yeah no, SSJ1 Gohan, as we see him, and especially Base Gohan, isn't 50x+ SSJ1 Goku.

But that doesn't actually mean the scaling is wrong. As we all know by now, Gohan's SSJ2 against Cell wasn't just SSJ2, it was that + anger, which explicitly, and I quote Goku in that very scene, "dramatically increase his power".
So yeah, Gohan's whole 4-B bullshit is 1/2, SSJ2 with a rage boost, we all know this.
And as soon as Gohan goes SSJ2 and gets mad, Cell unleashes his full power before he's even hit once (Goku noes that Cell is no longer hiding is power too), by doing so, the manga creates a disconnect between the SSJ2/SPC/4-B scaling and the PC that fought Goku, as the PC that fought Goku never interacted with SSJ2 Gohan, wasn't even touched, so we can't even downscale a bunch via not exploding on contact.

So yeah sure, Base Gohan could be stronger than SSJ1 Goku in theory, the problem lies in, that's only while enraged, why the **** are we indexing an imaginary "pissed off" Base and SSJ1 Gohan as his "default"?
They never actually happened, it isn't his actual base state. We rate what he's actually capable of as we see it, not a hypothetical, and even then, we don't list power ups like rage boosts as the default, just see Jotaro Kujo or the Hulk as examples, we list their actual base default first, and then treat rage stuff as an extra add on.

How it should be indexed, is Gohan's base and ssj1 are merely upscaling off SSJ1 Goku/Held Back PC, have "Rage Power" as an ability (he already does), and if you want, a note explaining what an enraged Gohan in base and SSJ1 could hypothetically hit (That being what's indexed atm) for matches, or maybe even "At least [Goku/PC lv], up to [Funny angry number] while enraged", or whatever. But the whole 1/100 his pissed off SSJ2 and treating it as his base, indexing that, when in truth it ain't that simple, ain't gonna fly. Fix it.