The Elder Scrolls Revisions (Big ones)

[Ultima_Reality]

I don't think you got what I'm trying to say.

I don't have to prove that he is explicitly amped either, because you can't explicitly prove he wasn't amped. I have, however, showed enough reasonable doubt that direct scaling shouldn't be a thing because of this particular situation.

Yeah, because, like I said, I can't prove a negative to begin with, and the only thing you've shown is that the Sunna'rah can amp things, not that it was amping something in this particular case, the latter of which is not the default as I've shown. A possibility of Barbas being amped wouldn't be grounds for not scaling him to the Vestige altogether, it'd be grounds for a "possibly" modifier to be there, which I'd still disagree with but can't exactly argue against, in any case.

And as I have shown, Fyr isn't directly referring to anything. He literally only said "current" in brackets, further implying it isn't exactly a literal or face value thing. And it can just as easily be addressing the restructuring of Mundus, again, as I have already proven.

Yeah, but, again, the restructuring of Mundus happens because Alduin returns things to the non-linearity of the Dawn to begin with. Your argument is that this doesn't mean his AP scales to the Divines, and that he is just rewinding time, which, explanation I gave aside, is why I brought up all the statements about his world-eating being a literal process. Of course, you could still argue it's just a rewinding of time based on this book, where Alduin "eats" the age of every Nord down to six years old, but the mechanism of that still involves him devourong time, and what we see are just the effects, so I don't think it'd change much in my argument.

Except it is?

The whole existence of Yokuda, Akavir, and even the existence of the Adjacent Places to an extent, pretty explicitly prove that Alduin isn't eating the concept of time. Unless you're implying that they are retroactively being created each Kalpa again, and again, in which case feel free to prove it, I guess.

That's pretty straightforward to prove, I think. Yokuda and Akavir are a part of Nirn, and strung along the "The Line" that people cross when they sail through the oceans, which MK already referred to as being linear time, both of which Alduin is already accepted as eating. The Adjacent Places are tricker, since ESO implies that they can just exist everywhere (See: The Augur saying that the veil of the Mundus is "sticky" and hard to traverse compared to his higher-dimensional homeworld), and not necessarily only in the Mundus, but, as an example, we can take Lyg, I guess: MK already entertained the notion that the plane is a part of Nirn, and Alduin eats Nirn, so, you can see where that goes.

Maybe @Ultima_Reality can apply the parts of this CRT that have been accepted by the other staff members here? And then you can continue to discuss further afterwards?

Sure. Although, I'd still want input in some parts, like on whether or not Nirn should be conaidered a Low 2-C structure to begin with, and all that.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Yeah, because, like I said, I can't prove a negative to begin with, and the only thing you've shown is that the Sunna'rah can amp things, not that it was amping something in this particular case, the latter of which is not the default as I've shown. A possibility of Barbas being amped wouldn't be grounds for not scaling him to the Vestige altogether, it'd be grounds for a "possibly" modifier to be there, which I'd still disagree with but can't exactly argue against, in any case.

I mean, I'd be fine with a possibly, but not outright.

Yeah, but, again, the restructuring of Mundus happens because Alduin returns things to the non-linearity of the Dawn to begin with. Your argument is that this doesn't mean his AP scales to the Divines, and that he is just rewinding time, which, explanation I gave aside, is why I brought up all the statements about his world-eating being a literal process. Of course, you could still argue it's just a rewinding of time based on this book, where Alduin "eats" the age of every Nord down to six years old, but the mechanism of that still involves him devourong time, and what we see are just the effects, so I don't think it'd change much in my argument.

And as I said, the "world" eating, is a very blanket statement. Many things can be considered a "world". The same place which gave us the literal meaning of "world eating" claimed "Nirn in his mightly gullet", so "world", at most, you can argue means only Nirn, not much else.

That's pretty straightforward to prove, I think. Yokuda and Akavir are a part of Nirn, and strung along the "The Line" that people cross when they sail through the oceans, which MK already referred to as being linear time, both of which Alduin is already accepted as eating. The Adjacent Places are tricker, since ESO implies that they can just exist everywhere (See: The Augur saying that the veil of the Mundus is "sticky" and hard to traverse compared to his higher-dimensional homeworld), and not necessarily only in the Mundus, but, as an example, we can take Lyg, I guess: MK already entertained the notion that the plane is a part of Nirn, and Alduin eats Nirn, so, you can see where that goes.

What did you want to prove? I'm not sure I got your point here.

I was saying that if you're claiming that Alduin eats the concept of time, it would mean that all the previous Kalpas are being retroactively recreated (from which you would be claiming are conceptually erased) each time a new Kalpa starts, and that's not an assumption that you can really make, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and whatnot.

 

[Shmooply]

Bump.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Hard disagree here, this is entirely based on the Divayth Fyr saying "current" and implying a lot of stuff. But you're forgetting that when Alduin eats time and it resets back to Convention where they have a meeting to decide who the Aedra and who the Daedra are, (look at Mehrunes and Molag Bal). Every Kapla you have a different Mundus because it has a different cosmological structure as a result of the Convention. Though I disagree with Alduin's eating scaling to anyone besides himself anyway, but that's neither here nor there.

I am 100% with Ogbunabali here. Even if Alduin eating the Kalpa affects all of Mundus, it does by returning time to the Dawn Era. It isn't unmaking the underlying structure of Mundus itself which was created during the Dawn Era "before" the Convention.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also in regards to Alduin, there is the argument to be made that his "World Eater" form does not scale to the Alduin you fight in Skyrim (Which I always disagreed but then ESO added this):

"Alkhan. The Scaled Prince. Firstborn of Akha, who bred with a demon of fire and shadow. He can devour the souls of those he kills to grow to an immense size. The songs tell us Alkhan was slain by Lorkhaj and his companions, but as an immortal Son of Akha he will return from the Many Paths in time. He is the enemy of Alkosh, Khenarthi, and Lorkhaj, and ever hungers for his crown."

"He can devour the souls of those he kills to grow to an immense size". So why does this matter? Well, it's because we see it in the Seven Fights of the Aldudagga:

The Seven Fights of The Aldudagga: Fight One, "The Eating-Birth of Dagon" — The Imperial Library

This text was originally posted on the official Bethesda forums on November 19th, 2005.

www.imperial-library.info

In the Aldudagga, Alduin is described as this colossal beast that can devour nations whole, whose shadows are draped over all four cardinal directions, with nostrils so big that whole farms can fit inside it. And this is Alduin in his World Eater state. The Aldudagga also says that Alduin "always eats the Nords first", implying that his devouring starts at a smaller scale and eventually he eats the entire world.

Obviously the Aldudagga is a Silly Folktale that I don't think is meant to be taken literally, but it is informative on the nature of Alduin. And what's more, it and the ESO bit do corroborate with Skyrim itself, where Alduin flies to Sovngarde to gorge himself on the souls of the dead to increase his power.

Skyrim also states that Alduin abandoned his role as World-Eater to rule over the Mortal World instead, so he's not even trying to initiate the process of ending the Kalpa and would, therefore, theoretically not possess his "World-Eater Power" at that point.

And then you also factor in Dragonrend and you can easily make the argument that the Dovahkiin doesn't scale to Alduin very much at all - At least as far as the base game goes, because as of the Dragonborn DLC he scales to Miraak who is directly attested to being more powerful than Alduin, and to being able to easily kill Alduin on his own despite not knowing Dragonrend.

 

[Keeweed]

Miraak being able to easily kill Alduin, comes from a statement from Miraak. It’s a cocky taunt at best, especially since a dragon priest and dragons vastly inferior to Alduin managed to fight Miraak. Also the only other thing putting him above Alduin is dlc promotional material, which is non canon and only exist for hype.

His statement doesn’t even make sense to begin with. How would he defeat Alduin if he couldn’t get past the immortality. Him not having dragonrend in and of itself proves Miraak was talking out of his ass.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Miraak being able to easily kill Alduin, comes from a statement from Miraak. It’s a cocky taunt at best, especially since a dragon priest and dragons vastly inferior to Alduin managed to fight Miraak. Also the only other thing putting him above Alduin is dlc promotional material, which is non canon and only exist for hype.

He literally One-Shots the Dovahkiin when they first meet.

 

[Keeweed]

The Dovahkiin who probably isn’t going to scale to the World Eater Alduin based off the comment I was referring to with my comment.

Matt was saying he would scale to Alduin via Miraak, Miraak has zero reason to scale.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Dovahkiin who probably isn’t going to scale to the World Eater Alduin based off the comment I was referring to with my comment.

Matt was saying he would scale to Alduin via Miraak, Miraak has zero reason to scale.

The Tongues also admit that Miraak could have beat Alduin and they had begged him for help and he refused.

 

[Keeweed]

All I remember is that they asked for his help, not that he would absolutely win. Also that would apply to the non world eater Alduin, since that’s the Alduin the tongues fought. Miraak already scales to the ‘weaken’ Alduin by fighting the Dovahkiin. Whether or not they will scale to him when he’s at his peak is what is in debate and there is nothing saying Miraak scales to Alduin at his peak.

 

[Keeweed]

I just want to point out there are multiple anti feats against the Dovahkiin scaling to the full might of Alduin. Miraak, along with a dragon priest and an army of pissed off dragons, took multiple days to move a island. All the Dovahkiin’s high 6-A feats are getting nuked by this thread so he doesn’t have anything above 7-B other than the island feat and the 7-B key should be nuked for the same reason the high 6-A key is being nuked. It comes from weather manipulation that shouldn’t scale to anyone.

I can’t remember the specifics of the quest right now and it is very late, but one of the characters in Skyrim is stated to be capable of destroying Nirn (as in the physical planet only) and even at his peak the Dovahkiin stood zero chance against her and need to prevent her from being resurrected all together. (Though once again I don’t remember the quest too well and it’s super late where I live so let me recheck that tomorrow).

Ignoring the last point for now the Dovahkiin still doesn’t have any feats close to Alduin’s as literally all his feats have been nuked and Miraak’s feats are infinitely inferior and required an entire army of pissed off dragons to pull off over a multitude of days. And it probably doesn’t scale to anyone anyways since it come from shouts (which shown by Ulfric don’t have a reason to scale physically majority of the time).

Versus Alduin who also doesn’t scale to his feat and needs a crap ton of prep and amps to pull it off.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I can’t remember the specifics of the quest right now and it is very late, but one of the characters in Skyrim is stated to be capable of destroying Nirn (as in the physical planet only) and even at his peak the Dovahkiin stood zero chance against her and need to prevent her from being resurrected all together. (Though once again I don’t remember the quest too well and it’s super late where I live so let me recheck that tomorrow).

They are actually talking about Mundus using the Eye of Magnus

 

[Keeweed]

No there was another one. It has something to do with a person being resurrected, but again it is way too late for me to properly check. I’ll try to find it before I go to work tomorrow.

 

[Keeweed]

I was thinking of posting something else but if I do post it it’ll be when I’ve got some rest (I remembered the quest I was thinking about but it’s a bit different then I remembered, it could still be an anti feat but for completely different reasons).

I’ll just say literally nothing matters if Alduin’s feat truly doesn’t scale to him though. Miraak has no reason to scale because he scales to the Alduin the Dovahkiin fought (the non World Eater), and the high 6-A feats are being nuked by the op. The low 7-B key should also be nuked for the same reason because it comes from weather manipulation (just like the high 6-A feat).

So it seems Miraak’s island moving feat is the next best feat and that required dozens of pissed off dragons and days to accomplish.

 

[Vietthai96]

Why you guys trying to scale the Miraak of the Dragon Era to the Miraak of the Fourth Era?, that guy is massively stronger than his ownself when he was just a Dragon Priest. Also iirc he as a Priest was enough to devouring Dragon soul left and right before he got ganged up and saved by the Tentacle Deadric Prince

 

[Ogbunabali]

Also in regards to Alduin, there is the argument to be made that his "World Eater" form does not scale to the Alduin you fight in Skyrim (Which I always disagreed but then ESO added this):

"Alkhan. The Scaled Prince. Firstborn of Akha, who bred with a demon of fire and shadow. He can devour the souls of those he kills to grow to an immense size. The songs tell us Alkhan was slain by Lorkhaj and his companions, but as an immortal Son of Akha he will return from the Many Paths in time. He is the enemy of Alkosh, Khenarthi, and Lorkhaj, and ever hungers for his crown."

"He can devour the souls of those he kills to grow to an immense size". So why does this matter? Well, it's because we see it in the Seven Fights of the Aldudagga:

The Seven Fights of The Aldudagga: Fight One, "The Eating-Birth of Dagon" — The Imperial Library

This text was originally posted on the official Bethesda forums on November 19th, 2005.

www.imperial-library.info

In the Aldudagga, Alduin is described as this colossal beast that can devour nations whole, whose shadows are draped over all four cardinal directions, with nostrils so big that whole farms can fit inside it. And this is Alduin in his World Eater state. The Aldudagga also says that Alduin "always eats the Nords first", implying that his devouring starts at a smaller scale and eventually he eats the entire world.

Obviously the Aldudagga is a Silly Folktale that I don't think is meant to be taken literally, but it is informative on the nature of Alduin. And what's more, it and the ESO bit do corroborate with Skyrim itself, where Alduin flies to Sovngarde to gorge himself on the souls of the dead to increase his power.

Skyrim also states that Alduin abandoned his role as World-Eater to rule over the Mortal World instead, so he's not even trying to initiate the process of ending the Kalpa and would, therefore, theoretically not possess his "World-Eater Power" at that point.

And then you also factor in Dragonrend and you can easily make the argument that the Dovahkiin doesn't scale to Alduin very much at all - At least as far as the base game goes, because as of the Dragonborn DLC he scales to Miraak who is directly attested to being more powerful than Alduin, and to being able to easily kill Alduin on his own despite not knowing Dragonrend.

Strongly agree with Matthew here, although I wanted to keep this for a separate thread.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Why you guys trying to scale the Miraak of the Dragon Era to the Miraak of the Fourth Era?, that guy is massively stronger than his ownself when he was just a Dragon Priest. Also iirc he as a Priest was enough to devouring Dragon soul left and right before he got ganged up and saved by the Tentacle Deadric Prince

Literally this.

 

[Keeweed]

Why you guys trying to scale the Miraak of the Dragon Era to the Miraak of the Fourth Era?, that guy is massively stronger than his ownself when he was just a Dragon Priest. Also iirc he as a Priest was enough to devouring Dragon soul left and right before he got ganged up and saved by the Tentacle Deadric Prince

How does any of that make him scale to the world eater alduin. He’s stronger than he was before, that doesn’t mean his best feat isn’t the island moving anymore, it just means he upscales from it now.

There is still no reason anyone should scale to World Eater Alduin as nobody fought that Alduin.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality

What do you think about Matthew's arguments?

 

[Vietthai96]

hmm, about World Eater Alduin form, well i think we should not scale Dragonborn to him, the guy is like, never appear at all, unless we considered the Alduin we player fought is his World Eater state

 

[Vietthai96]

But again it is the time for the most confusing thing:
1. Alduin's World Eater state is vastly stronger than his current form we all known
2. His "supposed" base form is equal in power to his World Eater form, he stay the same, just his World Eater form is more convenient to devour the world which increases his size

Because the lore is really vague in this part, it come down to personal interpretation, the in-between rating compromise (which our wiki always use the possibly/likely) i think is out of the window because of the large gap between the lower rating interpretation and the higher one, especially if Ultima High 1-B rating for the dragon get accepted.

Also the problem is a must to resolve, cuz it is one of the importance part of the scaling chain, and if Alduin World Eater state is actually better form, his profile should also be fix accordingly, his current profile is like a small composite

 

[Keeweed]

Alduin becomes stronger by consuming souls. He did it to regain his strength after losing to the Dovahkiin the first time and he was confident in fighting the Dovahkiin after consuming souls despite being in a worse position.

So we know he gets stronger by consuming souls and we know he has to consume souls to become the world eater.

So Alduin shouldn’t scale to his world eater status/state.

 

[Vietthai96]

But again i can also interpret that Alduin is still as strong as his "supposed" World Eater state, but he lost to Dragonborn and want to devour more soul to increases his power. Unless we claim that get send through time by the Elder Scroll make him lost a freaking big chunk of his power (and his size)

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

A blog made by TTGL to refute any "Alduin was incredibly weakened during the events of Skyrim" arguments, if it's any useful.

 

[Keeweed]

But again i can also interpret that Alduin is still as strong as his "supposed" World Eater state, but he lost to Dragonborn and want to devour more soul to increases his power. Unless we claim that get send through time by the Elder Scroll make him lost a freaking big chunk of his power (and his size)

He wasn’t larger or stronger in the past though. He had already rejected being the world eater by that point.

 

[Vietthai96]

Reject a role or a title doesn't always equal to "lost power"

 

[Keeweed]

A blog made by TTGL to refute any "Alduin was incredibly weakened during the events of Skyrim" arguments, if it's any useful.

From what I read in the blog, it says is that he can still do the world eating if he chooses to. Which he could even if we assume his base doesn’t scale. He would just need to devour enough souls to return to being the world eater.

Granted I’m starting work very soon so I wasn’t able to read the full thing nor will I be able to respond for a while, but I don’t think that proves Alduin should scale, just that he can become the World Eater whenever he wants by going and devouring enough souls.

 

[Keeweed]

Reject a role or a title doesn't always equal to "lost power"

But the role gives him the power. He didn’t have the power and lost it, it’s a power he needs to gain by eating souls.

 

[Vietthai96]

But the role gives him the power. He didn’t have the power and lost it, it’s a power he needs to gain by eating souls.

eh..well, can you give me the proof for this claim

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality

What do you think about Matthew's arguments?

@Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @Crabwhale

Your input would also be appreciated.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think Matt is making a lot of sense here.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the reply.

 

[Keeweed]

eh..well, can you give me the proof for this claim

The quote Matt has that started this debate to begin with. Alduin is stated to devour souls to become large enough to devour the world. He’s shown and stated to get stronger by devouring souls and before he ends the world he stated to always devour souls to become large enough to end everything.

This means the only time we know he ends the world he is immensely amped up and he always take this giant form when actually eating the world. Plus him being able to eat the world whenever heavily shots Skyrim’s plot in the foot because there is a ton of reasons he should have eaten the world, and none for him to not have.

Completely unrelated to Alduin’s ap but I’ve always found it strange Alduin only has low godly regen when literally every other god has high godly through sheer scaling, and the quote talking about Alduin’s world ending also calls him immortal in comparison to other gods (not that his immortality is better, just they say he’s just as immortal as all the other gods). So I find it strange his immortal is infinitely worse on this site.

 

[KongKing23]

In conclusion, we should not make any change for now.

 

[Keeweed]

In conclusion, we should not make any change for now.

No the 1-A+ characters still are going to become high 1-A if nobody contest, the giants still need to be downgraded and everyone that scales to them, a few of the main characters are supposed to be downgraded. The Dovahkiin’s beginning and middle Keys are getting downgraded or straight nuked even if his end game key is fine, which it arguably isn’t.

There a ton of changes to be made and you ignored literally all of them.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we need to wait for Ultima in any case.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

And as I said, the "world" eating, is a very blanket statement. Many things can be considered a "world". The same place which gave us the literal meaning of "world eating" claimed "Nirn in his mightly gullet", so "world", at most, you can argue means only Nirn, not much else.

You've already said above that you agree with me that the linear time which Alduin devours exists all across Mundus, and that his "rewind" does affect the Aedra, so this isn't a very relevant point, anyway. Unless you argue that his World-Eating is a different process from time being returned to the Dawn Era, which is very unlikely, for obvious reasons, saying he only eats Nirn clashes with what you've said before.

I was saying that if you're claiming that Alduin eats the concept of time, it would mean that all the previous Kalpas are being retroactively recreated (from which you would be claiming are conceptually erased) each time a new Kalpa starts, and that's not an assumption that you can really make, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and whatnot.

Seems like you misunderstood me, then. By "concept of time," I never really argued that Alduin eats the non-linear, fractured time created by Aka to stabilize the Aurbis. I was referring to the linear, exact time personified by Akatosh, which exists in the Mundus alone. I do agree that Alduin doesn't retroactively eat past Kalpas, or anything of the sort.

I am 100% with Ogbunabali here. Even if Alduin eating the Kalpa affects all of Mundus, it does by returning time to the Dawn Era. It isn't unmaking the underlying structure of Mundus itself which was created during the Dawn Era "before" the Convention.

I don't think this would actually matter, though, since the Divines are still a part of the solid, congealed reality of Mundus established after the Convention, so Alduin affecting all of it would mean he scales to them regardless.

Obviously the Aldudagga is a Silly Folktale that I don't think is meant to be taken literally, but it is informative on the nature of Alduin. And what's more, it and the ESO bit do corroborate with Skyrim itself, where Alduin flies to Sovngarde to gorge himself on the souls of the dead to increase his power.

Skyrim also states that Alduin abandoned his role as World-Eater to rule over the Mortal World instead, so he's not even trying to initiate the process of ending the Kalpa and would, therefore, theoretically not possess his "World-Eater Power" at that point.

Ah, that's certainly a valid point. I distinctly recall Tsun and Alduin himself stating that his power increases compared to what it was beforehand, but this could just as easily be referring to the fact Alduin has already been eating souls for a while before you actually fight him. This explains the weird low-ends like Paarthurnax actually being able to put up somewhat of a fight against Alduin (Despite being obviously weaker), too, so I can get behind this.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I should say I support Nirn being considered a Low 2-C construct. Specially with how the Earthbones work and actively hold the Laws of Physics and the concept of Linear Time into existence there.

 

[Ogbunabali]

You've already said above that you agree with me that the linear time which Alduin devours exists all across Mundus, and that his "rewind" does affect the Aedra, so this isn't a very relevant point, anyway. Unless you argue that his World-Eating is a different process from time being returned to the Dawn Era, which is very unlikely, for obvious reasons, saying he only eats Nirn clashes with what you've said before.

No it doesn't?

The rewind affects the Aedra because they are affected by linear time. How is that inconsistent?

Seems like you misunderstood me, then. By "concept of time," I never really argued that Alduin eats the non-linear, fractured time created by Aka to stabilize the Aurbis. I was referring to the linear, exact time personified by Akatosh, which exists in the Mundus alone. I do agree that Alduin doesn't retroactively eat past Kalpas, or anything of the sort.

Then this wouldn't scale to High 1-B then, just Low 2-C.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The rewind affects the Aedra because they are affected by linear time. How is that inconsistent?

This. Alduin destroys linear time which in turn returns Nirn to the Dawn Era, which in turn affects the Aedra. It's not a direct attack on the Aedra making Alduin scale to thme.