The Elder Scrolls Revisions (Big ones)

[KongKing23]

As we are at an impasse, we should not change anything yet.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I don't have to prove the negative statement ("Barbas wasn't amped") here, though, especially since people who wield the Sunna'rah being amped by it is not the default, so the burden of proof falls on you here. A vague possibility of something being the case is no real reason to eschew scaling entirely. Not to mention that I do acknowledge that Barbas used the power of the Staff, as you can gather, just not at the very start of the fight, during which he was fighting without it.

I don't think you got what I'm trying to say.

I don't have to prove that he is explicitly amped either, because you can't explicitly prove he wasn't amped. I have, however, showed enough reasonable doubt that direct scaling shouldn't be a thing because of this particular situation.

First paragraph is a very watered down way of putting it, given that Alduin is very directly referred to as the "Time-Eater," and Paarthurnax refers to the end of the current Kalpa as being the end of time, which in turn is corroborated by MK's talk about the Dawn Era being what follows his world-eating. Saying he just "messes with time" is pretty blatantly downplaying what he does.

This was exactly my point though?

Not to mention that Fyr referring to anything else here is very, very unlikely, given that Mundus having "current" or "past" incarnations is not something that remotely alludes to anything else in the setting.

And as I have shown, Fyr isn't directly referring to anything. He literally only said "current" in brackets, further implying it isn't exactly a literal or face value thing. And it can just as easily be addressing the restructuring of Mundus, again, as I have already proven.

My argument remained very constant throughout this discussion, I believe, save for me bringing up the statement regarding the Moons' connection to time and mortality (Which I already dropped as you can see above), as you can see by the fact I talked about the whole deal with Alduin returning things to the Dawn Era in the OP, too. And, for the matter, you haven't really proven anything to that effect, no, beyond saying that what Alduin does is just turning back time, which I already explained is not the case, and which is not even something we acknowledge in the current profiles.

I disagree that you have been consistent, your arguments flip flopped around and contradicted each other a few times. But I digress, as this doesn't address anything in the discussion.

And I don't see how Alduin eating the concept of time across the Mundus is contradicted, either.

Except it is?

The whole existence of Yokuda, Akavir, and even the existence of the Adjacent Places to an extent, pretty explicitly prove that Alduin isn't eating the concept of time. Unless you're implying that they are retroactively being created each Kalpa again, and again, in which case feel free to prove it, I guess.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality @Ogbunabali @Qawsedf234

Thank you all for helping out.

What are the conclusions here so far?

 

[Ogbunabali]

I agree with pretty much everything in the OP, but Ultima and I disagree on whether Barbas should scale directly to the Vestige and whether Alduin is High 1-B.

We haven't reached a conclusion on those two issues yet.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

would it be better to put alduin/dova as:

Low 1-C, likely/possibly H1B?

 

[Ogbunabali]

My issue is that I don't find the feat legitimate, not that it's high tier. It would either be High 1-B or not, there's no reason for Low 1-C.

 

[FanSyst]

It doesn't help much, but I agree with Ogbunabali.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

My issue is that I don't find the feat legitimate, not that it's high tier. It would either be High 1-B or not, there's no reason for Low 1-C.

the low 1-C is for mundus alone, the H1B would be for if the gods where affected

 

[Ogbunabali]

Mundus is High 1-B.

 

[FanSyst]

Mundus is High 1-B.

Could you give me a summary of why it is High 1-B? I always thought only Oblivion was.

Sorry if it derails the thread a bit.

 

[Ogbunabali]

The Aedra physically exist in Mundus, which are High 1-B. That's why Mundus was considered Low 1-C in the first place, because the Aerda were considered Low 1-C at the start.

 

[Naito-desu]

Not much to say about the rest though I thought there was already a calc that downgraded giants to 9-B

 

[Keeweed]

There was, but a newer calc made the feat 9-A. However distance of the observer wasn’t taken into account so the calc was supposed to be remade as the results would be a bit higher.

 

[Naito-desu]

Ah, so the 9-B rating still would apply to those scaling to giants then or are we scaling them to 9-A? 9-A or 9-B rating, either works honestly.

 

[Keeweed]

I’m at work and I don’t really understand the question, so I’ll say: Giants are 9-A at least, Aela and other circle members probably scale, literally anyone has nothing to do with giants and will be whatever tier their feats are.

 

[Naito-desu]

Yeah alright that makes sense, I was just confused since I was reading the arguments against keeping High 8-C versus downscaling too 9-B to downscaling to 9-A instead so that's a good clarification.

Companions and giants to 9-A once that calc is finished, essentially.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Companions wouldn't scale to giants though.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Companions wouldn't scale to giants though.

They literally kill one On-Screen, with or without your help.

 

[Ogbunabali]

They literally kill one On-Screen, with or without your help.

So what?

As the OP explains, it's not really enough to directly scale. Not only are they a whole group there. Skyrim is not technically developed enough to have any mechanics, so I wouldn't use the argument of them face tanking it in this case. And the only depiction of fighting a giant in lore is them avoiding them and attacking weak spots.

 

[Qawsedf234]

My issue is that I don't find the feat legitimate, not that it's high tier. It would either be High 1-B or not, there's no reason for Low 1-C

There's some High 1-B scaling with Shor's ghost if we want to use that

 

[FinePoint]

So what?

As the OP explains, it's not really enough to directly scale. Not only are they a whole group there. Skyrim is not technically developed enough to have any mechanics, so I wouldn't use the argument of them face tanking it in this case. And the only depiction of fighting a giant in lore is them avoiding them and attacking weak spots.

The direct evidence in-game suggests otherwise. I trust the actual events which happened over your headcanon that the game "wasn't technically developed enough otherwise they would've dodged."

 

[Ogbunabali]

The direct evidence in-game suggests otherwise. I trust the actual events which happened over your headcanon that the game "wasn't technically developed enough otherwise they would've dodged."

Lore > gameplay

Especially when the gameplay is not technical enough to show any complex combat, like dodging and any combat strategy, etc.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Are you telling me tanking a Giants swing to the face isnt simply a chad power move but instead AI being dumb?

 

[FinePoint]

Lore > gameplay

Especially when the gameplay is not technical enough to show any complex combat, like dodging and any combat strategy, etc.

I'd like to see the lore which implies Farkas, the stupid oaf in heavy armor using a greatsword, fights primarily by dodging strikes???
And I'd also like to see the logic in someone experienced in fighting giants using a shield if they couldn't block with it.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with pretty much everything in the OP, but Ultima and I disagree on whether Barbas should scale directly to the Vestige and whether Alduin is High 1-B.

We haven't reached a conclusion on those two issues yet.

My issue is that I don't find the feat legitimate, not that it's high tier. It would either be High 1-B or not, there's no reason for Low 1-C.

Okay. Are there any other staff or knowledgeable members that you think that we should call for further input about this?

 

[Ogbunabali]

I'd like to see the lore which implies Farkas, the stupid oaf in heavy armor using a greatsword, fights primarily by dodging strikes???
And I'd also like to see the logic in someone experienced in fighting giants using a shield if they couldn't block with it.

The fact that he's even alive and not in the stratosphere, for a start.

Out in a wide arc we crept, intending to fell a mammoth from every angle. Initial success: all our arrows met their mark, and the mammoth we chose trumpeted in pained anger. Unexpectedly, both beasts and their shepherd chose to lumber directly towards Ingjard and Fenrig, the nearest mammoth lifting up its trunk and thundering into a long charge. A lithe roll, and Ingjard avoided a trampling, as further arrows concentrated on the other hairy creature. Rearing up on its hind legs, the mammoth brought its entire weight down towards her, but quick thinking and reflexes allowed her to thrust a vicious sword up into the beast’s chin and across its throat. A great flood of deep red spurted out, as the mammoth wailed and thrashed, swaying its head back and forth in an attempt to send Ingjard flying. Again she deftly avoided a mauling, stepped out of the frenzied animal’s path, and waited for it to slump forwards and bleed out.


As Ingjard bettered her prey, Fenrig faced a foe four times his size, with only our ranged arrows (and encouraging shouts from the Orc) for help. The giant’s gangly frame worked to Fenrig’s advantage, as it attempted a huge kick which would have surely cracked a rib or two. But the giant struck air and grass as it slipped over, allowing Fenrig in with a swift pair of stabs. The giant pushed Fenrig back as it rose up to its feet, cleaving the area with a sweep of its club. This time Fenrig was on his back, but he sprang up, ran through the giant’s feet, and thrust a dagger through the bridge of his foe’s foot. Literally hopping mad, the giant struggled to remove Fenrig’s embedded toothpick while taking swift cuts to the legs. Unhappy in the extreme, it lifted its colossal club, then dropped it into the heather, hitting the ground with such force I half expected Fenrig to be launched tumbling upwards, through the low clouds to a distant doom. But Fenrig was on the giant’s back, puncturing the pale side flesh and scrambling to the head. A final dagger unsheathed, Fenrig plunged it through the giant’s ear, and it fell forwards, dead before it struck the soil.

And we even have some art of fighting against a giant, and what's this? What a surprise they aren't mindlessly getting hit.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Okay. Are there any other staff or knowledgeable members that you think that we should call for further input about this?

To my knowledge, all the knowledgeable staff are on the thread. There's Matthew as well, but they haven't been on the forum for a while.

 

[FinePoint]

The fact that he's even alive and not in the stratosphere, for a start.

Because he is comparable. Giants do not send each other into the stratosphere either, nor the Dragonborn unless he dies.

And we even have some art of fighting against a giant, and what's this? What a surprise they aren't mindlessly getting hit.

I do not see how a single artwork of a single person dodging a strike proves that is what they all do, and the only way to fight a giant.
There was a LOT of decisions they could've made to imply they were dodging, even with the Creation Engine. They did not.
Farkas has no precedent to dodge anything, and he does not.

Just because someone dodged a giant once, doesn't mean that nobody is capable of taking a hit from them.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Because he is comparable. Giants do not send each other into the stratosphere either, nor the Dragonborn unless he dies.

Except he's not, as I have shown. Not even the end game Dovahkiin is capable of not being sent flying like a rocket ship, unless you're saying we're upgrading every companion to tier 2/1.

I do not see how a single artwork of a single person dodging a strike proves that is what they all do, and the only way to fight a giant.

You just saw one.

There was a LOT of decisions they could've made to imply they were dodging, even with the Creation Engine. They did not.

No, they could not have.

Farkas has no precedent to dodge anything, and he does not.

Let me quote you. "I trust the actual events of the lore which happened over your headcanon"

Just because someone dodged a giant once, doesn't mean that nobody is capable of taking a hit from them.

Yes "someone", the most elite warriors on Nirn that outclass the companions would've been one shot by the weakest attack of the giants = nobody.

 

[FinePoint]

Except he's not, as I have shown. Not even the end game Dovahkiin is capable of not being sent flying like a rocket ship, unless you're saying we're upgrading every companion to tier 2/1.

I clearly said "unless he dies". If you survive the strike, it does not launch you.

You just saw one.

I think you misread my comment, because this response does not make sense.

No, they could not have.

They could've had it mentioned in dialogue, they could've used the dodging system they used in Morrowind, to list two.

Let me quote you. "I trust the actual events of the lore which happened over your headcanon"

The actual event is that the Companions fought a giant and killed it (with or without your help), you're the one assuming they all dodged, especially Farkas.

Yes "someone", the most elite warriors on Nirn that outclass the companions would've been one shot by the weakest attack of the giants = nobody.

Just because you can take a hit, doesn't mean you want to, and skill isn't the same thing as power. You can be a better warrior than someone without being physically stronger.

 

[KongKing23]

We are at an impasse, so nothing is going to change soon.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I clearly said "unless he dies". If you survive the strike, it does not launch you.

I wonder why you die.

I think you misread my comment, because this response does not make sense.

I didn't.

They could've had it mentioned in dialogue, they could've used the dodging system they used in Morrowind, to list two.

Why would they have mentioned that in a dialogue? And what does Morrowind have to do with this.

The actual event is that the Companions fought a giant and killed it (with or without your help), you're the one assuming they all dodged, especially Farkas.

The "actual events in gameplay" are irrelevant unless you're, again, making whiterun guards comparable to dragons, or Farkas tier 2/1. As I have said multiple times, the game is way too technically underdeveloped in gameplay to take it at face value especially when we have the lore telling us otherwise. So this argument is moot, no matter how many times you repeat it.

Just because you can take a hit, doesn't mean you want to, and skill isn't the same thing as power. You can be a better warrior than someone without being physically stronger.

Except they can't take a hit, that's literally the whole point.

 

[FinePoint]

I wonder why you die.

Game mechanics. I admit the Dragonborn is a bad example. They do not launch other giants in any case.

I didn't.

Then I am confused.
"I do not see how a single artwork of a single person dodging a strike proves that is what they all do, and the only way to fight a giant."
"You just saw one."
Here is the exchange, you can re-read it and perhaps understand why "You just saw one." Is not a logical response.

Why would they have mentioned that in a dialogue? And what does Morrowind have to do with this.

Your argument was that they could not have them dodge due to mechanical limitations, but Morrowind was built on the same engine and had a dodge mechanic. They would've mentioned it in dialogue if they meant for them to dodge but couldn't, because it would explain that was their intention.

The "actual events in gameplay" are irrelevant unless you're, again, making whiterun guards comparable to dragons, or Farkas tier 2/1. As I have said multiple times, the game is way too technically underdeveloped in gameplay to take it at face value especially when we have the lore telling us otherwise. So this argument is moot, no matter how many times you repeat it.

I did not argue either of those things, you're strawmanning me.
We cannot discount every event in a game not said through text, because we would no longer be indexing it accurately.
We can attempt to establish things as outliers with context, but I see no evidence of that here which isn't very contrived.

Except they can't take a hit, that's literally the whole point.

There is no proof of this, only that they dodged the attack.
I can provide countless examples of characters in fiction dodging an attack even though they could've survived it if they wanted to.
Though, 2/3 of the Companions who fought the giant had beast blood, which could explain how they're stronger than elite warriors, given it's a Daedric blessing/curse and all.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Game mechanics. I admit the Dragonborn is a bad example. They do not launch other giants in any case.

Then I am confused.
"I do not see how a single artwork of a single person dodging a strike proves that is what they all do, and the only way to fight a giant."
"You just saw one."
Here is the exchange, you can re-read it and perhaps understand why "You just saw one." Is not a logical response.

Your argument was that they could not have them dodge due to mechanical limitations, but Morrowind was built on the same engine and had a dodge mechanic. They would've mentioned it in dialogue if they meant for them to dodge but couldn't, because it would explain that was their intention.

I did not argue either of those things, you're strawmanning me.
We cannot discount every event in a game not said through text, because we would no longer be indexing it accurately.
We can attempt to establish things as outliers with context, but I see no evidence of that here which isn't very contrived.

There is no proof of this, only that they dodged the attack.
I can provide countless examples of characters in fiction dodging an attack even though they could've survived it if they wanted to.
Though, 2/3 of the Companions who fought the giant had beast blood, which could explain how they're stronger than elite warriors, given it's a Daedric blessing/curse and all.

I agree with this.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Game mechanics. I admit the Dragonborn is a bad example. They do not launch other giants in any case.

It's not a bad example. And Farkas isn't a giant, so moot point again.

Then I am confused.
"I do not see how a single artwork of a single person dodging a strike proves that is what they all do, and the only way to fight a giant."
"You just saw one."
Here is the exchange, you can re-read it and perhaps understand why "You just saw one." Is not a logical response.

I concede.

Your argument was that they could not have them dodge due to mechanical limitations, but Morrowind was built on the same engine and had a dodge mechanic. They would've mentioned it in dialogue if they meant for them to dodge but couldn't, because it would explain that was their intention.

..........You realize Morrowind is a different game than Skyrim right?

I did not argue either of those things, you're strawmanning me.
We cannot discount every event in a game not said through text, because we would no longer be indexing it accurately.
We can attempt to establish things as outliers with context, but I see no evidence of that here which isn't very contrived.

It's not a strawman, it's your argument that you said.

We are not discounting the event, we just have more context than the event in a vacuum.

Again, lore > gameplay.

There is no proof of this, only that they dodged the attack.

I think it's time for you to go back and reread what I posted.

Also, 2/3 of the Companions who fought the giant had beast blood, which could explain how they're stronger than elite warriors, given it's a Daedric blessing/curse and all.

Doesn't matter. They only get more powerful in werewolf form.

 

[FinePoint]

..........You realize Morrowind is a different game than Skyrim right?

You're the one who got meta in the first place by bringing up mechanical limitations...

I won't give any more large responses for a while though in case other people want to jump in, and not to clutter the thread. I feel we've both gotten our respective points across already.

 

[Ogbunabali]

You're the one who got meta in the first place by bringing up mechanical limitations...

And bringing up Morrowind has nothing to do with the technical limitations I described........

 

[Shmooply]

I apologize if this was already mentioned in the OP or somewhere else in this thread, but I believe there's a story where Alduin actually managed to go up against a full-powered daedric prince. I think it was Molag Bal or Dagon? I don't really remember, but I think this is supporting evidence for High 1-B Alduin. I'll see if I can find the story.

 

[Antvasima]

Maybe @Ultima_Reality can apply the parts of this CRT that have been accepted by the other staff members here? And then you can continue to discuss further afterwards?

 

[FanSyst]

I apologize if this was already mentioned in the OP or somewhere else in this thread, but I believe there's a story where Alduin actually managed to go up against a full-powered daedric prince. I think it was Molag Bal or Dagon? I don't really remember, but I think this is supporting evidence for High 1-B Alduin. I'll see if I can find the story.

I think you are referring to "The Seven Fights of The Aldudagga".