Star Wars Legends Cosmology Revision (Episode II: Attack of the 1-A God-Tiers)

[coolgohan09]

That was Luke's physical avatar. His true self was acting as a vessel for a Tier 0 entity, thus being High 1-A+. His physical avatar is 1-A.

Well what true self form. He surrenders himself to the force and proceeds to fight the vong. are the vong really 1-A, with this logic of scaling half of the sw characters in njo push to 1-A

 

[coolgohan09]

Only jacen should get this weird scaling. He was the only character to be portrayed as completely omnipotent god being, his aura alone kills the main villain while Oneness luke couldn't even beat Onimi's puppet without high difficulty.

 

[LordVader30]

The idea he even has a “true self” separate from his “avatar” when not mind-walking is baseless.

The notion that he is Outerversal when struggling against rank and file Vong Slayers definitely doesn’t track with the idea he is treating their entire universe as mere fiction like that tier implies.

Even while fighting Abeloth, Luke was battling in both Real Space and Beyond Shadows simultaneously, so the idea of a separate self is baseless... After all, you need to separate your soul from your body; otherwise, you can't even enter Beyond Shadows, LoL. So it will definitely be that his true essence is separate from his body.

 

[coolgohan09]

Even while fighting Abeloth, Luke was battling in both Real Space and Beyond Shadows simultaneously, so the idea of a separate self is baseless... After all, you need to separate your soul from your body; otherwise, you can't even enter Beyond Shadows, LoL. So it will definitely be that his true essence is separate from his body.

Uhh, but luke reached oneness without all beyond shadows separate from body bs. He just opened himself to the force of gaining an amp. Idk about Crucible but the Vong amp wasn't even that strong he was still fighting Vong's so idk how in the world he is 1-A when he struggles with vongs who are a weaker fodder than Onimi.

 

[LordVader30]

Uhh, but luke reached oneness without all beyond shadows separate from body bs. He just opened himself to the force of gaining an amp. Idk about Crucible but the Vong amp wasn't even that strong he was still fighting Vong's so idk how in the world he is 1-A when he struggles with vongs who are a weaker fodder than Onimi.

I was referring to Beyond Shadows Luke, not Oneness Luke.For Oneness Luke I'll reply when I get home.

 

[Epyriel]

Even while fighting Abeloth, Luke was battling in both Real Space and Beyond Shadows simultaneously, so the idea of a separate self is baseless... After all, you need to separate your soul from your body; otherwise, you can't even enter Beyond Shadows, LoL. So it will definitely be that his true essence is separate from his body.

I said when not mind-walking.

 

[Xavis10]

Whills seem okay, being high beings they'd probably be around the level of the ones and allat, but I'm not too sure of where the Bedlams would go as I don't have that much knowledge of them, I couldn't find their books

The Bedlam Spirits should, imo, be 1-C by virtue of in a databook being described as transdimensional, which without additional context should mean they can access the current highest tier in physical reality.

 

[Xavis10]

Also, how many staff already voted in this part of the CRT?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Also, how many staff already voted in this part of the CRT?

Only one staff which is Oven. No other staff has commented yet

 

[LordVader30]

Sounds like we'll be waiting a long time.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Only one staff which is Oven. No other staff has commented yet

I'm currently working on a cosmology blog. Should I get Antvasima to ping staff once that's done?

 

[coolgohan09]

I'm currently working on a cosmology blog. Should I get Antvasima to ping staff once that's done?

Yeah or any other mod. also btw can you link then blog when finished?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I'm currently working on a cosmology blog. Should I get Antvasima to ping staff once that's done?

Sure, I suppose.

 

[Shiedaisthepeak]

I do agree that High 1-A+ feels more sensible, as "true" Oneness involves the user being everywhere and nowhere simultaneously and also turns them into a vessel of the Force (a Tier 0 entity/concept)'s will. Being the "will" or "vessel" of a Tier 0 entity is established by Ultima as High 1-A+. God/The Magician from SiTM's profile demonstrates this.

If they are just avatars, I agree with the High 1-A+ scaling, but I do not think that these characters can be tier 0 if they are placed in the hierarchy or as a whole with straight force, that is, if they are varieties of Force, according to what I read and if I don't misunderstand, I agree with the scaling, but Vessels Of The Forces are High. 1-A+ because the current scaling evaluations apply to Divine Presence-Lucifer, so I think it would make sense since they have almost the same achievements

 

[coolgohan09]

If they are just avatars, I agree with the High 1-A+ scaling, but I do not think that these characters can be tier 0 if they are placed in the hierarchy or as a whole with straight force, that is, if they are varieties of Force, according to what I read and if I don't misunderstand, I agree with the scaling, but Vessels Of The Forces are High. 1-A+ because the current scaling evaluations apply to Divine Presence-Lucifer, so I think it would make sense since they have almost the same achievements

Yeah, but oneness isn't always the same most of the time its character opening up to the force, I think Jacen's and Maybe luke's were said to be a metaphysical conduit of the force.

 

[Shiedaisthepeak]

Yeah, but oneness isn't always the same most of the time its character opening up to the force, I think Jacen's and Maybe luke's were said to be a metaphysical conduit of the force.

I will convey my thoughts on the subject as follows:

Let’s consider A as a character,
B as the metaphysical manifestation of this character,
and C as a condition where I will evaluate it based on the assumption of a metaphysical channel.

If Proposal A directly intersects with Proposal B, as I said, then a High 1-A+ tiering is possible. However, considering Proposal C, I cannot say that there is a High 1-A+ evaluation for either Force 0 or other characters. As I mentioned, Tier 0, which is entirely outside the hierarchy and fully transcendent as an "otherized" being, cannot merge with or be a "part" of such an entity. Either you are it, or it is you; otherwise, any merging, "channel," or conduit concepts would be considered anti-feats.

To exemplify this, Ryougi Shiki, contrary to popular belief, does not scale to the Root through merging but rather through the "third personality" concept. So, fundamentally, they do not involve the same situation, as I stated earlier. This would be a complete contradiction.

 

[god_cat]

Well, in the case of these avatar situations, do you think only names like shimrra caedus will be affected or the whole njo era?

 

[Epyriel]

Well, in the case of these avatar situations, do you think only names like shimrra caedus will be affected or the whole njo era?

I mean it would literally require scaling pretty much everyone to 1-A, even the random nameless Vong Slayers and grunts.

After getting his Onesness amp at the end of NJO:

Jacen recalled watching his uncle on Belkadan, where the war had begun, wielding two lightsabers when he had come to Jacen’s rescue. But the rescue on Belkadan paled in comparison to the control Luke demonstrated now. His single blade might as well have been ten, or twenty. He took the steps at a lightning pace, burning his way through dilating membranes but in complete control of his momentum. Seen through the Force he was a maelstrom of luminous energy, a Force storm against which there was no shelter. And yet all his energy poured from a calm center; an eye. He made no missteps. None of his actions were interrupted by thought. In fact, Luke didn’t seem to be there at all—physically or as an individual personality. Jacen and Jaina were astounded—but they had little time to reflect. Their lightsabers were busy, as well, turning the blows Luke dodged, or defending assaults launched from below. On the fourteenth level, where the Citadel’s exterior wings sprouted from the hull, they reached a fork in the stairway. Luke swung to Jacen. “Which way?” He wasn’t even breathing heavily. Jacen extended his Vongsense. “The left passage leads to living quarters on the next level. The other, to some sort of dovin basal lift that accesses the summit.” He screwed his eyes shut. “Shimrra is there. He has guards with him—” “Not enough.”

-NJO: The Unifying Force

After cutting through nameless Vong grunts, Luke, Jacen and Jaina are engaged by Vong Slayers:

Across the room Shimrra was moving stiffly toward Luke, who was being set upon by four warriors. The enormous Vong overlord stepped across the moat as if crossing a final line. Seemingly entranced—in sway of the Yuuzhan Vong gods—he fixed his glowing eye implants on his prey. He held the thick-bodied amphistaff diagonally in front of him, with his giant left hand closed around the middle of the weapon’s three-meter-long body. Jacen sent a warning to his uncle through the Force, which Luke acknowledged—not only through the Force but also by spinning away from the warriors to provide himself with enough fighting room to confront Shimrra. Whirling through a cartwheel, Luke caught one of the warriors on the chin with the heels of his boots, unbalancing him enough so that Luke could get inside the arm that held the amphistaff and drive his lightsaber through the warrior’s neck. As he quickly withdrew the blade, a second warrior was ready to pounce; Luke stretched out his left hand and impaled the slayer through the right eye. At once the other two converged on him, battering him with their amphistaffs and coufees, opening ragged wounds in his upper arms and chest.

…

Jacen twisted out from under the attack, grasping that Luke had again been pressed to the wall. Having killed three of his assailants, he was facing only one opponent, but his energy was beginning to flag. It was not fatigue born of fear of going to the dark side, but simple exhaustion, and Shimrra was moving in. Eager to award the kill to the Supreme Overlord, the slayer closest to Luke turned and ran at Jacen with his amphistaff held overhead like an ax, intent on splitting open his victim’s forehead.

-NJO: The Unifying Force

Luke grows exhausted from fighting fodder Vong grunts and then getting beaten up fighting a dozen Vong Slayers. To put it mildly he obviously isn’t treating the entire existence of his opponents as mere fiction. We would need to upscale not only Shimrra, but also his nameless Vong Slayers and mere grunt guards to 1-A as well, as well as everyone who fought them without being treated as mere fiction by comparison (which would literally scale to the entire verse from top to bottom).

Or we could use a bit of common sense and say none of these characters are remotely near Outerversal.

 

[LordVader30]

I still don’t understand why you equate being fictional with being 1-A. Do you think every 1-A character is 1-A just because they’re fictional?

 

[Epyriel]

I still don’t understand why you equate being fictional with being 1-A. Do you think every 1-A character is 1-A just because they’re fictional?

Being fictional is not 1-A, but a common framing for 1-A is a character that treats most of the verse as fiction (from an in-universe perspective).

The definition for being Outerverse level is that you are completely transcendent over lower states of existence such that any combination of lower beings remain negligible to you by comparison. A common proof for this is when a character views others as fiction (in-universe) indicating a complete transcendence over them.

To put it mildly, none of this applies to Oneness Luke. You can’t fight beings who you are transcendent over or treat as fiction and then struggle at all, let alone grow tired and injured. Thus if you want to keep him 1-A you would be forced to say everything he fought was 1-A as well, and then everyone those people fought would face the same problem until you’ve made the entire verse 1-A.

 

[Shiedaisthepeak]

To put it mildly, none of this applies to Oneness Luke. You can’t fight beings over who you are transcendent over or treat as fiction and then struggle at all, let alone grow tired and injured. Thus if you want to keep him 1-A you would be forced to say everything he fought was 1-A as well, and then everyone those people fought would face the same problem until you’ve made the entire verse 1-A.

Epyriel's comment makes sense, I totally agree with him.

 

[god_cat]

Epyriel's comment makes sense, I totally agree with him.

I don't agree with you on this issue we have to make a distinction between avatar onenesses and their main forms the biggest example of this is FO jacendir also as far as I remember in his fight with luke vong he took no damage from any of them and was not forced against them if there is someone to scale it is only shimrra because even oneness luke could not defeat him without disarming him

 

[Epyriel]

I don't agree with you on this issue we have to make a distinction between avatar onenesses and their main forms the biggest example of this is FO jacendir

I’m still waiting for anyone to post any evidence for Luke to even have a separate “avatar” and “main form” while in Oneness and not mind-walking. Where is this ever stated?

also as far as I remember in his fight with luke vong he took no damage from any of them and was not forced against them if there is someone to scale it is only shimrra because even oneness luke could not defeat him without disarming him

I already posted the quote above, but here it is again. After fighting waves of nameless Vong grunts with Jaina and Jacen. Luke is then forced to fight some Vong Slayers guarding Shimrra who cover him with injuries as Luke grows tired from the whole affair:

Across the room Shimrra was moving stiffly toward Luke, who was being set upon by four warriors. The enormous Vong overlord stepped across the moat as if crossing a final line. Seemingly entranced—in sway of the Yuuzhan Vong gods—he fixed his glowing eye implants on his prey. He held the thick-bodied amphistaff diagonally in front of him, with his giant left hand closed around the middle of the weapon’s three-meter-long body. Jacen sent a warning to his uncle through the Force, which Luke acknowledged—not only through the Force but also by spinning away from the warriors to provide himself with enough fighting room to confront Shimrra. Whirling through a cartwheel, Luke caught one of the warriors on the chin with the heels of his boots, unbalancing him enough so that Luke could get inside the arm that held the amphistaff and drive his lightsaber through the warrior’s neck. As he quickly withdrew the blade, a second warrior was ready to pounce; Luke stretched out his left hand and impaled the slayer through the right eye. At once the other two converged on him, battering him with their amphistaffs and coufees, opening ragged wounds in his upper arms and chest.

…

Jacen twisted out from under the attack, grasping that Luke had again been pressed to the wall. Having killed three of his assailants, he was facing only one opponent, but his energy was beginning to flag. It was not fatigue born of fear of going to the dark side, but simple exhaustion, and Shimrra was moving in. Eager to award the kill to the Supreme Overlord, the slayer closest to Luke turned and ran at Jacen with his amphistaff held overhead like an ax, intent on splitting open his victim’s forehead.

-NJO: The Unifying Force

 

[Xavis10]

I may be incurring in a massive mistake, but anyways - when, exactly, does Luke supposedly enter a state of oneness? Because none of the quotes sent here are indicative of that.

Granted, I may be overlooking something, since everyone is talking about a 'Luke in oneness', but I genuinely don't see where that's stated. Sure, there's a quote that basically says Luke was a maelstrom of luminous force energy and that he didn't seem to be there, but that hardly hints at a state of oneness.

Oneness is usually indicated textually by "joining" X character with the Force. We see that with Jacen and with Barris Offee when she enters that mini oneness state, but never with Luke. Not on the Yuuzhan Vong war at least. The only times I can agree that Luke ever entered Oneness was when he fought against one of Abeloth's bodies without issue and when he was on that Unidentified Monolith and emitted that "super sayian" golden flash of lightning. Not any other time.

To me, this discussion is pointless, GM Luke only gets 1-A scaling through acting in the Beyond Shadows and that's that. Barris eventually gets Low 1-C specifically in oneness through a statement made somewhere around here, depending on the interpretation we conclude here. Jacen is the only one I can genuinely see becoming High 1-A in oneness since only he actually "merged" with the Force, no one else did.

 

[TegamiBachi25]

I may be incurring in a massive mistake, but anyways - when, exactly, does Luke supposedly enter a state of oneness? Because none of the quotes sent here are indicative of that.

Granted, I may be overlooking something, since everyone is talking about a 'Luke in oneness', but I genuinely don't see where that's stated. Sure, there's a quote that basically says Luke was a maelstrom of luminous force energy and that he didn't seem to be there, but that hardly hints at a state of oneness.

Oneness is usually indicated textually by "joining" X character with the Force. We see that with Jacen and with Barris Offee when she enters that mini oneness state, but never with Luke. Not on the Yuuzhan Vong war at least. The only times I can agree that Luke ever entered Oneness was when he fought against one of Abeloth's bodies without issue and when he was on that Unidentified Monolith and emitted that "super sayian" golden flash of lightning. Not any other time.

To me, this discussion is pointless, GM Luke only gets 1-A scaling through acting in the Beyond Shadows and that's that. Barris eventually gets Low 1-C specifically in oneness through a statement made somewhere around here, depending on the interpretation we conclude here. Jacen is the only one I can genuinely see becoming High 1-A in oneness since only he actually "merged" with the Force, no one else did.

What about oneness Anakin Skywalker (not Solo)?

 

[Epyriel]

I may be incurring in a massive mistake, but anyways - when, exactly, does Luke supposedly enter a state of oneness? Because none of the quotes sent here are indicative of that.

Granted, I may be overlooking something, since everyone is talking about a 'Luke in oneness', but I genuinely don't see where that's stated. Sure, there's a quote that basically says Luke was a maelstrom of luminous force energy and that he didn't seem to be there, but that hardly hints at a state of oneness.

Oneness is usually indicated textually by "joining" X character with the Force. We see that with Jacen and with Barris Offee when she enters that mini oneness state, but never with Luke. Not on the Yuuzhan Vong war at least. The only times I can agree that Luke ever entered Oneness was when he fought against one of Abeloth's bodies without issue and when he was on that Unidentified Monolith and emitted that "super sayian" golden flash of lightning. Not any other time.

What is viewed as his moment of Oneness during the Vong War is from this quote I posted earlier:

Jacen recalled watching his uncle on Belkadan, where the war had begun, wielding two lightsabers when he had come to Jacen’s rescue. But the rescue on Belkadan paled in comparison to the control Luke demonstrated now. His single blade might as well have been ten, or twenty. He took the steps at a lightning pace, burning his way through dilating membranes but in complete control of his momentum. Seen through the Force he was a maelstrom of luminous energy, a Force storm against which there was no shelter. And yet all his energy poured from a calm center; an eye. He made no missteps. None of his actions were interrupted by thought. In fact, Luke didn’t seem to be there at all—physically or as an individual personality. Jacen and Jaina were astounded—but they had little time to reflect. Their lightsabers were busy, as well, turning the blows Luke dodged, or defending assaults launched from below. On the fourteenth level, where the Citadel’s exterior wings sprouted from the hull, they reached a fork in the stairway. Luke swung to Jacen. “Which way?” He wasn’t even breathing heavily. Jacen extended his Vongsense. “The left passage leads to living quarters on the next level. The other, to some sort of dovin basal lift that accesses the summit.” He screwed his eyes shut. “Shimrra is there. He has guards with him—” “Not enough.”

-NJO: The Unifying Force

Luke gets a seemingly massive amp out of nowhere and is described as “a maelstrom of luminous energy” and he “didn’t seem to be there at all—physically or as an individual personality” which certainly fits with our understanding of Oneness.

To me, this discussion is pointless, GM Luke only gets 1-A scaling through acting in the Beyond Shadows and that's that. Barris eventually gets Low 1-C specifically in oneness through a statement made somewhere around here, depending on the interpretation we conclude here. Jacen is the only one I can genuinely see becoming High 1-A in oneness since only he actually "merged" with the Force, no one else did.

Agreed.

 

[Xavis10]

Luke gets a seemingly massive amp out of nowhere and is described as “a maelstrom of luminous energy” and he “didn’t seem to be there at all—physically or as an individual personality” which certainly fits with our understanding of Oneness.

I agree that it fits the general understanding we have of oneness, that's not the problem I have with this at all.

The only issue is that if we consider that specific moment as a oneness state, then we must downgrade that ""ability"", since the other two times he used it, he didn't get tired or had his energies fading. Heck, even weak (for Luke's standards) Jedi got ultra instinct and super sayian power levels when they enter oneness and they never, not once, do they tire, the only other instance of something like that happening is when Ganner Rhysode enters a oneness state when his body was already decaying.

If we accept Luke's malestrom moment as him having merged with the Force then we must also agree that Abeloth (against whom Luke did NOT tire in the specific battle where he attained oneness) is weaker than random Vong slayers, which is maybe the most preposterous statement someone could make in SW Legends powerscaling.

Furthermore, Revan has a similar statement in his novel, I think it's when he fought against Darth Nyriss. One time he was described as "the heart of the Force", a statement I think all of us know about and also another one which I don't recall that well, but it was similar to the one made to Luke in that Vong battle. The point I want to make is that Revan never achieved oneness, and I think no one has any doubts about that, yet has similar statements. Even "being the heart of the Force" could well be equated to being "a malestrom of luminous force energy".

Again, don't take this as a personal attack, this is just my view.

 

[Xavis10]

What about oneness Anakin Skywalker (not Solo)?

The one he attained on Mortis? That should qualify him for 1-C or 1-B, it depends on how we end up interpreting that statement of "vibrating reality strands", which are considered currently the highest layer of physical reality. Logically, the Ones scale to the highest layer of physical reality while in their physical forms. Since Skywalker subdued them, he should also scale to them.

 

[Epyriel]

I agree that it fits the general understanding we have of oneness, that's not the problem I have with this at all.

The only issue is that if we consider that specific moment as a oneness state, then we must downgrade that ""ability"", since the other two times he used it, he didn't get tired or had his energies fading. Heck, even weak (for Luke's standards) Jedi got ultra instinct and super sayian power levels when they enter oneness and they never, not once, do they tire, the only other instance of something like that happening is when Ganner Rhysode enters a oneness state when his body was already decaying.

If we accept Luke's malestrom moment as him having merged with the Force then we must also agree that Abeloth (against whom Luke did NOT tire in the specific battle where he attained oneness) is weaker than random Vong slayers, which is maybe the most preposterous statement someone could make in SW Legends powerscaling.

Furthermore, Revan has a similar statement in his novel, I think it's when he fought against Darth Nyriss. One time he was described as "the heart of the Force", a statement I think all of us know about and also another one which I don't recall that well, but it was similar to the one made to Luke in that Vong battle. The point I want to make is that Revan never achieved oneness, and I think no one has any doubts about that, yet has similar statements. Even "being the heart of the Force" could well be equated to being "a malestrom of luminous force energy".

Again, don't take this as a personal attack, this is just my view.

I haven’t read Crucible yet, so I won’t comment there. But I have read Vortex and I can tell you right now Luke absolutely does tire and injure just like he does in TUF, with him explicitly stating he doesn’t have the strength left to keep up a second fight with the Callista Avatar.

While there is definitely a difference in power, there is nothing to say each moment he enters a state of Oneness must bring him to exactly the same level of power. After all, Vortex takes place a full 15 years after TUF and Luke has grown far far more powerful in that time.

Not to mention the fight during his moment of Oneness against the Akanah Avatar lasts all of 30 seconds, compared to the hours he spent fighting his way through the entire Citadel before reaching and tiring against the dozen Vong Slayers when he finally reaches Shimrra.

 

[Shiedaisthepeak]

I don't agree with you on this issue we have to make a distinction between avatar onenesses and their main forms the biggest example of this is FO jacendir also as far as I remember in his fight with luke vong he took no damage from any of them and was not forced against them if there is someone to scale it is only shimrra because even oneness luke could not defeat him without disarming him

Unless a context that fully explains this topic is presented to me, my opinion will remain the same.

 

[Xavis10]

I haven’t read Crucible yet, so I won’t comment there. But I have read Vortex and I can tell you right now Luke absolutely does tire and injure just like he does in TUF, with him explicitly stating he doesn’t have the strength left to keep up a second fight with the Callista Avatar.

While there is definitely a difference in power, there is nothing to say each moment he enters a state of Oneness must bring him to exactly the same level of power. After all, Vortex takes place a full 15 years after TUF and Luke has grown far far more powerful in that time.

Not to mention the fight during his moment of Oneness against the Akanah Avatar lasts all of 30 seconds, compared to the hours he spent fighting his way through the entire Citadel before reaching and tiring against the dozen Vong Slayers when he finally reaches Shimrra.

Fair point. That would make more sense then, considering the effects of fighting Abeloth's avatar came much faster than fighting through the citadel all those hours. And it also nullifies the earlier 'problem' of Abeloth = Vong slayers.

Still, shouldn't his oneness (specifically fighting Abby) equate to 1-C or around that? Since Abeloth's avatars are on that tier, at least on Environmental Destruction from what I understood on earlier parts of the CRT.

Thanks for clearing the first point up btw.

 

[Epyriel]

Still, shouldn't his oneness (specifically fighting Abby) equate to 1-C or around that? Since Abeloth's avatars are on that tier, at least on Environmental Destruction from what I understood on earlier parts of the CRT.

Nah that scaling is for Prime Abeloth’s avatars (the version that fought the Mortis Gods before her imprisonment).

The version Luke fights in FOTJ had been massively weakened after 100,000 years of starvation (with only a few momentary breakouts) during which she couldn’t drain life energies which she needs to stay healthy and at full strength (for contrast even a few days of starvation brought Post-Pool Sarasu Taalon all the way from Luke tier down to Ben tier) while also being surrounded by dozens of black holes which have been known to also weaken Force users over time.

For comparison, it is stated that the number of avatars Abeloth can manage at a given time is relative to how strong she is in that moment. During FOTJ the strongest she gets is being able to manage 3 avatars at once. By comparison, during an earlier breakout (when she likely still wasn’t at full power) she managed to utilize the entire biospheres of 3 entire planets as avatars.

 

[Xavis10]

Nah that scaling is for Prime Abeloth’s avatars (the version that fought the Mortis Gods before her imprisonment).

The version Luke fights in FOTJ had been massively weakened after 100,000 years of starvation (with only a few momentary breakouts) during which she couldn’t drain life energies which she needs to stay healthy and at full strength (for contrast even a few days of starvation brought Post-Pool Sarasu Taalon all the way from Luke tier down to Ben tier) while also being surrounded by dozens of black holes which have been known to also weaken Force users over time.

For comparison, it is stated that the number of avatars Abeloth can manage at a given time is relative to how strong she is in that moment. During FOTJ the strongest she gets is being able to manage 3 avatars at once. By comparison, during an earlier breakout (when she likely still wasn’t at full power) she managed to utilize the entire biospheres of 3 entire planets as avatars.

Makes sense. I still have a feeling his oneness should scale anywhere from tier 3 to Low 1-C, akin to Barris' oneness state, but I digress, that discussion is one I think should take place when this CRT reawakens, it's a tad too dead now.

Also, I have a doubt - did Abeloth actually fight the Mortis Gods in the EU? I'm asking because every time I see people bringing that up, they always use that artwork where Abby is crawling out of the Pool of Knowledge in direction to the three Celestials as an argument, but that artwork, iirc, is part of Supernatural Encounters, which (unfortunately) isn't canon to the EU.

She probably did fight them in actual canon and I just don't remember.

 

[coolgohan09]

Nah that scaling is for Prime Abeloth’s avatars (the version that fought the Mortis Gods before her imprisonment).

The version Luke fights in FOTJ had been massively weakened after 100,000 years of starvation (with only a few momentary breakouts) during which she couldn’t drain life energies which she needs to stay healthy and at full strength (for contrast even a few days of starvation brought Post-Pool Sarasu Taalon all the way from Luke tier down to Ben tier) while also being surrounded by dozens of black holes which have been known to also weaken Force users over time.

For comparison, it is stated that the number of avatars Abeloth can manage at a given time is relative to how strong she is in that moment. During FOTJ the strongest she gets is being able to manage 3 avatars at once. By comparison, during an earlier breakout (when she likely still wasn’t at full power) she managed to utilize the entire biospheres of 3 entire planets as avatars.

How strong is base Ben Skywalker btw just a random thought?

 

[coolgohan09]

Makes sense. I still have a feeling his oneness should scale anywhere from tier 3 to Low 1-C, akin to Barris' oneness state, but I digress, that discussion is one I think should take place when this CRT reawakens, it's a tad too dead now.

Also, I have a doubt - did Abeloth actually fight the Mortis Gods in the EU? I'm asking because every time I see people bringing that up, they always use that artwork where Abby is crawling out of the Pool of Knowledge in direction to the three Celestials as an argument, but that artwork, iirc, is part of Supernatural Encounters, which (unfortunately) isn't canon to the EU.

She probably did fight them in actual canon and I just don't remember.

She is a threat to them but the thing is the abeloth in fotj Is 1000000000X weaker then the abeloth who fought the ones. The ones true form in mortis or something is beyond abeloth

 

[Epyriel]

Also, I have a doubt - did Abeloth actually fight the Mortis Gods in the EU? I'm asking because every time I see people bringing that up, they always use that artwork where Abby is crawling out of the Pool of Knowledge in direction to the three Celestials as an argument, but that artwork, iirc, is part of Supernatural Encounters, which (unfortunately) isn't canon to the EU.

She probably did fight them in actual canon and I just don't remember.

She did offscreen repeatedly. The Mortis Gods are the ones that built her prison and forced her into it, and the Son and Daughter repeatedly had to fight and throw her back in whenever she broke out. (Sources being FOTJ: Apocalypse, and Galactic Architecture 101 and the History of Centerpoint Station)

Although there is a common misconception that she beat the Son and the Daughter together based on a mural seen in Apocalypse where the Son and Daughter are glowering and cowering respectively at her, however this could easily just be their first reaction to her new appearance and not a result of a defeat offscreen (after all, Abeloth has been stated to be weaker than any of the Mortis Gods individually).

 

[Epyriel]

How strong is base Ben Skywalker btw just a random thought?

About on par with Vestara Khai, who was weak enough to be quite literally finger flicked by FOTJ Luke.

 

[coolgohan09]

She did offscreen repeatedly. The Mortis Gods are the ones that built her prison and forced her into it, and the Son and Daughter repeatedly had to fight and throw her back in whenever she broke out. (Sources being FOTJ: Apocalypse, and Galactic Architecture 101 and the History of Centerpoint Station)

Although there is a common misconception that she beat the Son and the Daughter together based on a mural seen in Apocalypse where the Son and Daughter are glowering and cowering respectively at her, however this could easily just be their first reaction to her new appearance and not a result of a defeat offscreen (after all, Abeloth has been stated to be weaker than any of the Mortis Gods individually).

She Doesn't scale to the mortis essence spiritual bs the ones on mortis

 

[coolgohan09]

About on par with Vestara Khai, who was weak enough to be quite literally finger flicked by FOTJ Luke.

Shameful how ben skywalker was the same age as Anakin solo and yet Ben is not even close to Anakin lol

 

[coolgohan09]

Genuinely you can make a good point that Onimi(The guy who Oneness Jacen negged by breathing) is stronger than Oneness Tuf Luke, Like Luke was fighting Onimi's pawn who he considers nothing to him. He might be equal to a living force planet that Luke conceded is stronger than him, and this planet is like a vergence in the force.