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What exactly does it contradict? It sorta just sets up the Legends lore and shows how the Celestials spawned and shi
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Star Wars Legends Cosmology Revision (Episode II: Attack of the 1-A God-Tiers)
- Thread starter StoneKillerz12
- Start date
Epyriel
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Except the literal guy in charge of deciding what is canonical and what is not disagrees with you:
Not to mention the guy that gave it the greenlight for licensing himself said it was not official:
With other Story Group members like Matt Martin being in agreement. So pretty much all the officials that hold any authority (and who actually decide on the lore and how the story progresses) are in consensus that it isn’t canonical.
Epyriel
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When the anti-feats outnumber the feats they cease to become outliers. It is then a case that the higher end feats should be brushed off as writer inconsistencies.
Honestly in my view 99.99% of all Force users don’t have a leg to stand on for anything above City level outside of extreme amps like Oneness or Sith Magic crystals or Mortis itself.
For all I love it, frankly it seems to me there are very few verse wanked to greater height than Star Wars. Even a single solid anti-feat kills most CRTs for other verse, yet here it seems like you have a thousand sub-City level anti-feats for entire classes of Force users, and then you get a single wonky feat like Poof defusing a bomb and everyone jumps on it and suddenly the entire Prequels cast is Planet level.
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Bro is a professional hater negl. The anti feats don't overtake the feats in any form of validity as this is asimply a difference in writer opinions on the force.
All opinions are valid but the higher end feats should be accepted as this is as valid as anything on a lower tier.
Calling the anti feats anything other than lower end outliers is just straight bs and should only serve to scale lower end characters.
High Tiers gain high tier feat scaling, this is what they have demonstrated.
Low tiers gain low tier feat scaling, this is what they have demonstrated.
Outliers and anti feats are just that, writer inconsistencies, due to different beliefs on the force.
Tl;dr - If you're a high tier, you scale to the high tier feats and they don't get called "outliers." Star Wars has had thousands of writers and it's pretty clear interpretations vary but writing off high tier feats for no valid reason is laughable
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Ah I see, from what I had read it was only cancelled due to hyperspace shutting down after he had begun signing legal forms
Perhaps this is a different scenario or maybe what I've read is incorrect
Idek atp, EU is tricky to trace
Epyriel
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To the contrary, I absolutely love the verse. Which is why I hate the fact that VSBW is basically useless for indexing characters for now since for years there appears to have been zero quality control for AP feats, to the point it seems like a parody of the verse.
Characters should be scaled to their most consistent upper limit. When you have thousands of instances of Force users struggling to lift pillars and boulders or failing to tank sub-City level explosions you don’t get to suddenly start calling everyone Planet level because a single lesser known comic has a side character simply defusing a bomb. No other verse I am active in has had such a grievous oversight gone uncorrected for so long, and none of them are as popular as Star Wars.
Like Anakin had to go on an entire recovery arc because he got overpowered by an explosion running down a hallway that didn’t even destroy the ~200m ship he was standing in. Despite being the most popular character, outside of when being massively amped on Mortis, he doesn’t get a single feat above City level and has innumerable anti-feats all around his highest demonstration of City level power.
And suddenly he jumps to Planet level off of a single misunderstood feat? Along with half of every other indexed character on site, who share his complete lack of feats above City level and innumerable anti-feats capping them around there? Do you know how big the gap between City level and Planet level is? A factor of about 600 trillion.
It is absurd. It feels like a caricature of the verse.
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In some iterations of Anakin this is true, and yet other iterations of him are casually more powerful than people who can lift Venators with one arm and is pretty consistently ~ROTJ Luke level who had consistently higher feats than CB
Like I said, it depends on the writer, however, in the context of scaling, Star Wars' highest feats should be indexed as the 'Star Wars' scaling, as this is true to their full power showings, like GM Luke or prime Yoda.
The Jedi are meant to be powerful AF as referenced by novels and comics about them, in scaling terms, we should stick to their highest scaling iterations as, the point you brought up about CB level Anakin is pretty much an anti feat considering the tens of thousands of versions of Anakin and all the inverse stuff he has pointing to Vader, Luke and other Jedi/Sidious' feats
Tl;dr: Take the highest feats since this will properly index the peak of the Star Wars verse in strength as this is what scaling is meant to be. There is no 'consistent' Star Wars scale since there's literally thousands of writers, so take the highest feats to show what Star Wars' peak is.
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I agree with GrandAdmiralCosmicBrains
Epyriel
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Rivi-Anu (the person who held up the Venator) only managed it for a few seconds before it killed her, and the feat is currently calced at around Large Town level: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:ByAsura/Rivi-Anu_Stops_A_Venator
Which certainly fits in my assertion that the Prequels are City level at most. I also don’t know of any feats for ROTJ Luke that gets above City level.
Prime Luke should certainly get above to like Multi-Continent level by virtue of the Monolith presumably unlocking hidden resources in him much like the Force Harmony amp did (thus scalable to Sidious eating fleets or being able to raze the surface of planets with his storms) but I don’t see why Yoda would get beyond City level either.
That is like the complete opposite of how every other verse is scaled. You take the most consistent ceiling, not one wonky feat at the expense of a thousand other showings across countless media. Not that he even has a single wonky feat to stand on at this point.
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As you mentioned, this level is not granted based on a single feat. However, I can say that there are multiple feats supporting it, and claiming that there are "a lot" of anti-feats is an overstatement. I can provide feats for the AP achievements in Star Wars if needed.
Epyriel
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I would love to hear them in the next thread that deals with the general scaling. Although I would maintain sub-City level anti-feats outnumber any higher scaling feats by a truly massive margin for most characters.
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Actually, I believe this was clarified in the previous discussion. The AP levels vary from era to era, planet to planet, and even form to form—especially depending on the WRITER. When scaling Star Wars characters, as previously mentioned, we should state something like "for profile X, he/she ranges from L7-B to 4-B." To be frank, the idea of a normal person—a non-Force User—defeating a Jedi Master is utterly absurd. In short, I think there’s no issue in mentioning that it’s variable.
Epyriel
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The Force Nexus amps aren’t that much of a factor aside Mortis and shouldn’t be considered when indexing their base power (with most not being worth adding their own keys). And like every other verse, all canonical works must be considered when accounting for writer inconsistency, with the most consistent account of a character’s power utilized.
Also ‘writer inconsistency’ is very explicitly not something that can be used to justify a ‘varies’ rating. And honestly none of the characters are so inconsistent that a range from City level to Solar System level can be justified. The only one that is really dramatically inconsistent is Luke, and he has an in-universe explanation (that gets repeated rather often) for his poor performances (holding back out of fear of dipping once more into the dark side).
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And I wasn’t just talking about writer inconsistencies... In fact, the Force density on a significant planet can even determine the outcome of a battle. I only gave the L7-B to 4-B range as an example to show that it can vary, and there's no problem with that. But I’m not going to continue this cursed debate because we’re in the cosmology crt.
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Can some of the more lower scaling stuff be left for another thread? This is at 6 pages already with no clear consensus at all.
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- Thread starter
- #216
1 mod currently agrees, that being Sir_Oven. We need two more for this to go through.
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Although I agree with you, most people seem all too keen in fully separating it, which is understandable to a degree, hence why separate profiles will be made for the Supernatural Encounters characters and characters that are directly affected by its contents.
Basically another DC/Vertigo situation.
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Except "the Infant of Shaa" is not a bomb. I don't know where the assumption it is one came from but it is a wrong one.
It is an artefact that stores massive amounts of force energy and releases it upon being separated from its counterpart statue, "the Mother of Shaa", and the way it was stopped from destroying Coruscant was from Yarael Poof specifically binding the planet destroying energies back to the statue, he didn't "defuse a bomb".
I just wanted to clear that misconception up, this discussion is best suited for the third part of this CRT.
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Because in the comic when Yarael tried to explain what he did, Jango and Zam made the analogy that it was a sort of "defusing", and people ran with that explanation ignoring all context with how the Infant of Shaa even worked.
Epyriel
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Poof quite specifically prevents it from exploding by biding its energies in an action described as defusing it in order to make it safe and prevent the chain reaction that would destroy the planet.
Nowhere here is he overpowering a Planet level explosion - such an explosion never occurs, and his actions are quite specifically to prevent its trigger before it can detonate, described as “defusing it” and to “make it safe” before any kind of chain reaction can take place. None of this can be assumed to be Planetary AP in any capacity. At best it is power nullification.
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He bound the energy by absorbing them (Star Wars Insider 66), effectively "defusing" it.
The Infant is also stated to straight up generate the energy for planetary explosion, not just chain reaction. Jango is simply assuming that's how it works because that's the best use to cause as much damage as possible,
Epyriel
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Pretty sure that citation is wrong as that looks like the format of the fact files, not the Insider magazine. Regardless, this “absorption” is explicitly described by the primary source material as him binding the energies together so they don’t detonate.
That first source only furthers my point - it can “build up an energy charge to exponential, nearly unimaginable proportions”. Clearly this hasn’t happened yet as the whole point is that he is defusing it and “making it safe” before it can explode and reach these “unimaginable proportions”.
Meanwhile the second source is a rumour that doesn’t specify a mechanism.
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You are correct, it's Fact File #101, my mistake there
So he stabilized energies that were going to destroy a planet through absorption. That's AP.
It was pretty close given the urgency of Yarael.
All in all, it's totally arguable and is supported (imo) that this can scale to AP.
Epyriel
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It had not yet gone off - the exponential release of energy is something that happens during the detonation of explosions, not before. Everything implied in this scene is the work of the Force equivalent of a bomb squad, and something not at all scalable to AP.
(Not to mention how utterly drastic of an outlier it would make, being over 600 trillion times as powerful as any other feat in the Prequels)
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Hilarious thing to think about when the Old Republic has way higher stuff.
Epyriel
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At least there all the star destroying stuff is done with massive amounts of prep and amps through Sith Magic crystals.
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“Build up” implying it doesn’t normally straight up go to planet busting.
If I reading this correctly, this implies it doesn’t normally have the energy to bust a planet from the start and gradually build up over time.
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I will still consider this feat a bit more carefully given the situation surrounding it is interesting.
But yeah, we should reserve this for a later CRT regarding AP feats in general.
This thread was mostly about the God Tier of the verse and all
But yeah, we should reserve this for a later CRT regarding AP feats in general.
This thread was mostly about the God Tier of the verse and all
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- Thread starter
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How are you guys on the Shaman of The Whills and Bedlam Spirits scaling to the 1-A stuff?
@LordVader28 @god_cat @Xavis10 @Grand_Astartes @GrandAdmiralCosmicBrains @Abu2411
@LordVader28 @god_cat @Xavis10 @Grand_Astartes @GrandAdmiralCosmicBrains @Abu2411
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Whills are fine, but why are the Bedlam Spirits considered 1-A?
Epyriel
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I don’t think there is enough information for either to scale to that. The only thing we know about the Shaman of the Whills in Legends is that they taught Qui-Gon his immortality trick which doesn’t scale them anywhere. To actually scale them would require dipping into non-canonical abandoned drafts and the like which never made it to publication.
The Bedlam Spirits already got their profiles deleted due to a lack of credible information towards scaling them to any particular tier. All we know is that have some very impressive abilities, but no handle on their AP.
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I agree with lord vader that whills is an aspect of the force confirmed by george lucas but I can't think the same for bedlam spirits
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The Whills should be 1-A and arguably one layer above the Mortis Gods even in celestial form due to embodying the Cosmic Force.
The Bedlam Spirits would be 1-A, some layers into it, IF Supernatural Encounters was considered in this cosmology. Since it isn't, best you can get for them is 1-C due to being beyond linear time (key word: linear) and transdimensional, which in this context should inherently mean being at least the same dimensionality as the highest current layer in physical reality, if not one above.
Epyriel
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Ok, since people seem to be piling on desires to scale characters entirely off of random interview statements I feel the need to say this:
Random interview statements are not tracked as canonical material - only what makes it to publication. Leland Chee has made it clear repeatedly that Lucas’s statements made in random interviews are not tracked in the Holocron Continuity Database, and that his views are constantly evolving - only material committed to the screen should be considered:
Not to mention Lucas recused himself from any authority on how the EU evolved beyond his original vision:
As far as the official canon of the Legends continuity is concerned, trying to scale a character entirely off of a deleted draft of an early work and a few of Lucas’ random interview quotes might as well be scaling fanfiction.
VSBW’s official policy for material that is scaled in character profiles to strictly defer to the continuity rules set out by the licence holder of the verse to determine its canon:
Random interview statements are not tracked as canonical material - only what makes it to publication. Leland Chee has made it clear repeatedly that Lucas’s statements made in random interviews are not tracked in the Holocron Continuity Database, and that his views are constantly evolving - only material committed to the screen should be considered:
Not to mention Lucas recused himself from any authority on how the EU evolved beyond his original vision:
As far as the official canon of the Legends continuity is concerned, trying to scale a character entirely off of a deleted draft of an early work and a few of Lucas’ random interview quotes might as well be scaling fanfiction.
VSBW’s official policy for material that is scaled in character profiles to strictly defer to the continuity rules set out by the licence holder of the verse to determine its canon:
TegamiBachi25
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Let's move aside from the whole SE/Celestial scaling, how would Force Ghosts be scaled in Legends and Canon? Qui Gon's profile already has a force ghost tab even though he only has Canon and Legends keys and those are only when he's alive
Epyriel
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For Legends there are two types of ghosts.
There are the ‘true’ Force ghosts like Qui-Gon who have become one with the Force but maintained a level of individuality.
Then there are the spirits who have stopped themselves from ever joining the Force completely and linger on, which is common among some of the stronger Sith, like Marka Ragnos and Freedon Nadd.
The true Force ghosts don’t really interact with the physical world aside from talking, so they are technically just a part of the Force, but what actions they can take as an individual have basically 0 AP.
The lingering spirits are typically just weaker versions of what the characters were in life. For example Marka Ragnos had to manifest what power he could in a weak host that got defeated by a Padawan, while if the ritual succeeded to resurrect him completely to his full power, Luke states it would have taken the strength of his entire order to face him. Lingering spirits can affect the world on their own even without hosts, but they are typically pretty weak compared to what they were in life.
For Canon we see the true Force ghosts can actually interact with the physical world unlike in Legends, but I’ll leave a more detailed answer to someone more familiar with Disney Canon.
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in this case FO jacen and Anakin should be 0, after all, they enter a state of full oneness with the force.
Epyriel
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…I’m not sure what this has to do with Force ghosts.
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I think he said because they both merged with the Force.
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