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The Elder Scrolls Revision IV: Oblivion

ah, Reman Cyrodiil, the emperor who launched a space program with ships / fortresses / giant moths and at the same time organized so brutal orgies to disgust Sanguine himself and ********* without hands over his enemies and eat the jaw of one of them.
 
Mmm, draco chrysalis ... if I remember correctly it was one of the Six Way Walking ... now, if I understood it well enough or it is a way to transform yourself into a dragon, in an aspect of time (Dragon = Time) or both.
 
Ok so what supports the fact that there oblivion is an infinite void with an infinite number of infinite sized planes besides a statement by Rulantaril and the text copy pasted from the imperial library
 
Lawrence Schick explicitly says Oblivion has Infinite Realms, and a Dremora describes it as an endless dark void containing many infinities in a book from ESO.
 
On the topic on infinite dimensions in Oblivion, I really think the Daedric Princes deserve "possibly High 1-B" rating instead of the "likely higher". We already agree that Oblivion is infnite dimensional, and since all Deadric Princes scale to each other, and we know at least some of them are Et'ada, I really think they should get possibly rating.
 
@Ogbunabali

Reposting my answer here:
Contrary to popular belief, the Daedric Princes are clearly not as powerful as the original Et'Ada, and did subgradiate themselves, albeit differently from the Aedra who bound themselves to Mundus.

The fact that the Aedra manage to keep the Daedric Princes from entering Mundus makes no sense if the later are High 1-B while the former aren't. There is also a small portion of the power of the Divines contained within the Amulet of King being enough to defeat Molag Bal inside his own Realm of Coldharbour.

Meanwhile, we have multiple examples of Daedra who are weaker than their Et'Ada state, notably Meridia, who used to be the Magne-Ge Merid-Nunda before falling from Aetherius, and Malacath, who used to be the Et'Ada Trinimac before being corrupted. Hermaeus Mora himself was never an Et'Ada, and was born from cast away ideas thrown by Magnus during the creation of Mundus.

So yes, the Daedric Princes aren't Et'Ada.
~ matt 30 posts ago​
 
Well pretty sure the Towers are the main reason the Daedric Princes aren't able to enter Mundus, and if they do enter it's said that Mundus will be destroyed. And I know not all of them are Et'ada but some of them are and they do scale to each other, which was my point. Oblivion is also an infinitely dimensional realm and the Daedric Princes embody their realms of Oblivion, they are their own Oblivion realm. Plus there is also the Trinimac and Boethiah debacle. I know it's not 100% there's some stuff that don't make sense, I agree, that's why I said "possibly High 1-B" instead of the "likely higher" and not to be outright High 1-B.
 
Not all Et'Ada were High 1-B, Arkay was a minor spirit who rose to Godhood because of the creation of mortality in the Mortal Plane, and the Loveletter even implies the Princes were also minor Spirits who rose to power by establishing themselves within the recently subcreated Realm of Oblivion.

The Princes scalling to the Et'Ada doesn't work even ignoring the above, either. Herma-Mora was born from mere ideas discarded by the Original Spirits during the creation of Mundus, Molag Bal was stomped by the Vestige when the latter was empowered by a small part of the Divines' power contained within the Amulet of Kings, Mehrunes Dagon was destroyed by an Avatar of Akatosh, etc.

The conflict between Boethiah and Trinimac is supposed to have taken place in the Merethic Era, so Trinimac would have to be an Aedra by then, and Malacath himself tells us that their conflict wasn't a literal fight and something far more allegorical.
 
I mean like I said I'm not saying they should be High 1-B solely because of them being an Et'ada, I'm not even saying they should be outright High 1-B. But the fact that they do embody their realms of Oblivion, they choose how many dimensions they want to have there, some of them were Et'ada, should be enough for a "possible" rating, that's all.

And let's be real the whole Molag Bal getting stomped by the Vestige was PIS, you can't deny that. I mean Meridia or not Molag Bal not being able to deal with some fodder normies in his own realm? And the Avatar of Akatosh beat a manifestation of Mehrunes Dagon it wasn't literally Dagon himself, considering all of Nirn would probably have been destroyed waaaay before the Avatar of Akatosh could even manifest, if that was the real Dagon.

Sure but we both know that "lore is convoluted" in Elder Scrolls so we can't say for certain what exactly happen, so we can't just ignore it. And again this is just advocating for a "possible" rating.
 
Embodying a Realm of Oblivion isn't High 1-B, though, and being able to choose the number of Dimensions within them also isn't enough for such a rating, especially when Warhammer 40k wasn't rated at High 1-B for a long time even when the Warp Gods had identical feats.

It wasn't PIS, because the Vestige was explicitly said to have been empowered by the power of the Divines themselves so they could have a chance against Molag Bal, it being PIS would imply that this whole part of the game was an anomaly which contradicted their normally displayed levels of power. Bal not immediately detecting and smiting the Vestige and the Companions as soon as they entered Coldharbour is PIS / CIS, yeah, but the Vestige managing to defeat him while heavily empowered by the Gods themselves isn't.

The Daedric Princes aren't invincible within their realms, either, considering Meridia and Molag Bal were still equals even when inside of Coldharbour in ESO itself, and Jyggalag was allegedly a threat to the other Daedric Princes even though he has no realm.

It was Mehrunes Dagon's full self, yes. The whole plot of Oblivion is that the barriers between Mundus and Oblivion were being dissolved due to the absence of a Septim that could light the Dragonfires, and at the end of the game said barriers were finally destroyed, and Dagon was allowed go fully manifest in Nirn. In fact, I think Martin even says lighting the Dragonfires would do nothing by that point, and the only thing that could be done was summoning the Avatar of Akatosh so it could yeet Dagon away and recreate the Barriers.

The fact Nirn wasn't instantly destroyed by the time Dagon manifested in it happened because otherwise there would be no plot.
 
Embodying an infnite dimensional realm isn't High 1-B?

Ok like you can't deny the whole ending of the vanilla ESO game was PIS. Even the Vestige defeating him. The base vanilla game had so much lore contradiction and didn't pay attention to 99% of the actual lore previously established. It was only fixed after them adding DLC's and expansions. They solely overestimated the power of the Aedra and the Amulet of Kings, the lore itself mention that the Daedric Princes are more powerful than the Aedra at that point in time, they blatantly contradicted that. Not to mention that would be an outlier and that is the whole reason why I'm advocating for a "possibly" rating.

Well it isn't possible for him to fully manifest considering there were more towers still active at the time the Oblivion Crisis happened. So no even after that he wasn't fully manifested.
 
Yeah I am obviously with Ultima here. The Daedric Princes aren't Et'Ada level in the slightest, every single piece of lore contradicts it.

From an avatar of Akatosh stomping the full Mehrunes Dagon and sealing Mundus from Oblivion. From the Vestige with the power of the Aedra kicking Molag Bal's balls so hard he explodes. From the Tribunal being as powerful as Daedric Princes more or less. To both Meridia and Malacath being lesser than their Et'Ada selves explicitely.
 
Also:

"Vanilla ESO contradicts the lore and it sucks"

Lmao, what year is this. Even Vanilla ESO has amazing lore and fantastic worldbuilding that doesn' contradict the past games at all.
 
Ok well, that's debatable. And for the last time can we stop pretending that's the only point I've brought up?

And no that wasn't full power Mehrunes Dagon not all of the Towers were destroyed. It's physically impossible for him fully manifest since some of them were still up at the time of the Oblivion Crisis.

And the Vestige beating Molag Bal is pretty much PIS, and even if it's not it's a clear outlier considering the lore itself contradicts that considering the Daedric Princes were considered more powerful at the time than the Aedra, the game devs clearly didn't care about the lore at the time the vanilla ESO came out.

And since when are the Tribunal considered as powerful as the Deadric Princes? I don't remember that ever being stated.

Meridia is weaker then her Aetherius self yes, I mean Aetherius > Oblivion, I never said that wasn't the case. And Malacath is his own thing.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Also:
"Vanilla ESO contradicts the lore and it sucks"

Lmao, what year is this. Even Vanilla ESO has amazing lore and fantastic worldbuilding that doesn' contradict the past games at all.
Click to expand...
Ok Matt you obviously didn't play ESO when it came out, I did, there were infinite things that were wrong with it, it only got fixed through DLC's and expansions. And the Ebonheart Pact exists.
 
Embodying an infinite-dimensional realm is High 1-B, yeah, but the Princes don't embody or influence all of Oblivion, the only one whose Realm fully extends across the entirety of Oblivion is Nocturnal, and she is literally the Primordial Daedra who exists as a direct aspect of the Original Void of Sithis, even if she was High 1-B, the other Princes wouldn't scale to her in the slightest.

Not really? ESO just had terrible marketing decisions due to ZOS wanting to attract the casual MMO players, which led to shit like "Jungle Cyrodiil is a transcription error", which is in turn contradicted by the game itself. The Princes are also only stated to be more powerful than the Aedra in general Creation Myths which are sometimes contradicted by far more reliable sources, like Jubal-lun Sun and the events of the games themselves, not to mention Lorebooks like "The Amulet of Kings", which state that the Chim-el-Adabal is solidified blood from the Heart of Akatosh, who would forever guard Mundus from Oblivion as long as the Dragonfires burned, with the Amulet itself acting as a symbol of the covenant between the Divines and Men.

The other Towers being active is irrelevant when the game itself states that the barriers between Mundus and Oblivion were dissolved by the end of Oblivion Crisis. The possibility of Dagon fully manifesting in the Mortal Plane is something that is addressed multiple times in the game, with Martin even saying that Dagon's goal is to destroy the barriers between realms, which only allow the Princes of Misrule to enter the Mundus in the form of "fleeting visits", and this goal was visibly realized at the end of the game, where he is finally able to fully manifest on Tamriel.
 
And Oblivion which is an infinite realm of infinite dimensions can't be divided in 16 parts, but it is. And each Daedric Prince embodies their own part of it.

Marketing wasn't the only thing wrong with ESO. And the "Jungle Cyrodill" was the least of the problems. The events of the games themselves never put us against an actual Daedric Prince, except Molag Bal, which I have already expressed my opinion on that part. And all of the Daedric Princes are at least comparable to each other in strength. Because if one of them was that much stronger than the other, they would've already conquered the other ones, considering almost all of them have already tried to do that in the past and failed.

How are the other Towers being active irrelevant? When all of the Towers are the reason why Mundus isn't destroyed by the Daedric Prinices and are the sole reason that's keeping them at bay. And are you really saying that random people's perspective > what's been stated multiple times. Uninformed characters in Oblivion don't know that all the Towers need to be destroyed so that the Daedric Princes need to be fully manifested, they only knew about their own Tower and the fires. It was only an assumption on their part.
 
Jesus Matt, I literally said " And the "Jungle Cyrodill" was the least of the problems.". And just so you know the "great Cyrodill jungle lore" didn't come out with the base vanilla game. Which is when all of the horrible lore was, for the 100th the the lore was fixed with DLC's and expansions, it wasn't that "great", as you call it, when the game actually lauched.
 
Oblivion being literally divided in 16 parts is never stated anywhere, other than Vivec's obviously metaphorical descriptions of the Aurbic Wheel, the fact Nocturnal's realm of Evergloam explicitly encompasses all of Oblivion directly contradicts this notion.

Nocturnal is explicitly more powerful than the other Daedric Princes, though, and has the actual feats to back it up, such as defeating Meridia inside of the latter's own realm in Summerset Online, and forcing all of the Princes to swear Nymic Oaths to not interfere with the Remanite Mananauts in their conquest of Oblivion.

Actually, is it ever stated that the other Towers play any significant role in maintaining the barrier between Mundus and Oblivion other than some statements in the Infernal City? My memory is probably a bit hazy, but I am fairly sure the only Tower that really contributes to this is White-Gold, as it is the only one who really had any visible effect upon being meddled with. Nu-Mantia Intercept even states that the majority of the Towers were created by the Merethic Elves in order to unmake the Mundus (with the exception to this being Green-Sap), and some sources imply that the barriers between Mundus and Oblivion didn't exist until Alessia made her covenant with Akatosh / Shezarr / whatever.
 
The whole cosmology is based on the Auribic Wheel, and a lot of the metaphysics and philosophy falls apart if you disregard the concept of the Wheel. And where is it stated that Evergloam encompasses all of Oblivion? Because Rulantaril has traveled in her realm, as well as we in the games. And nothing has implied that she encompassed all of Oblivion.

I haven't played Summerset yet, so If you wouldn't mind showing me where Nocturnal beat Meridia inside her own realm.

"When Reman's efforts were finally revealed, there was a large discomfort throughout his sovereignties and even outright dissent in the Elder Council. These iconoclasts feared daedric vexation for unritualized trepass into the Void, and perhaps rightly so. However, this was all quickly dissolved when the Sixteen-Plus Princes of Tumult lent their nymic oaths in their first display of coalition since the Fall of Lyg in the previous kalpa. Conjecture points to some machinations of Nocturnal, who took on her mantle of Ur-Dra of Oblivion, and it was by her primogeniture that Reman was able to pursue his cosmic acquisitions without further censure."

Where does it say she "forced" them to do that?

And yes in the Infernal City mainly. And I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. The Ayleids want to mirror their ancestors, to they made the remaining Towers to gain ascension through them. But it is the Altmer who want to destroy the Towers because they think that would give them the ascension they need.
 

Before Oblivion, there was Nocturnal.

Nocturnal existed before this reality was even imagined, and she will ride its destruction into the next

Evergloam, Nocturnal's ever-shifting domain of twilight and gloom, that somehow seems to be adjacent to every other realm of reality. In the dark, if you turn and look quickly, you can almost glimpse it.
^ This is the tidbit about Nocturnal's domain extending across all realms.

Nocturnal heavily implies that Meridia was defeated by her, and considering that she says this while about to consume her Knight into darkness, I am pretty sure that's the case.

It isn't explicitly said that she forced them to do it, but the fact she made the other Princes sign a Nymic Oath is treated as a big deal within the text itself, which even goes as far as stating that Nocturnal "took on her mantle as Ur-Dra of Oblivion" (i.e the Primordial Daedra who exists as a direct aspect of the Original Void) upon doing that, so it most definitely is a valid feat for her. It isn't even the only thing pointing at her being the most powerful Daedra, either, ESO Summerset has a Psijic Mage explicitly stating that she is the oldest and most powerful Daedric Prince, and associating her power with her status as the Ur-Dra.

Well, as I said, the White-Gold Tower was the only Tower that ever displayed significant effects on the Mundus as a whole upon being meddled with, as seen in Oblivion (and in ESO too, if I recall correctly), and the fact that the barriers between Mundus and Oblivion were implied to only have been created when Alessia made a Covenant with the Divines really makes me inclined to believe that the other Towers aren't as significant to the maintainance of said barriers as the White-Gold Tower, at best I can see the latter as the one which establishes the barrier in the first place, while the others only act to fortify it in some way.

Also, yeah, it is pretty explicitly stated that the White-Gold Tower was created to unmake the Mundus, like all other Towers with the exception of Green-Sap:


Like all of the polydox constructs of the earliest Aldmer-- whatever their abnegaurbic creed-- White-Gold Tower is a conduit of creatia, aad sembia sembio, built to bring about a reversal of the congealing spiritual bleed caused by the Convention. In other words, it was a focus point for (re-)reaching the divine.

White-Gold Tower was made by the Ayleids, the Heartland High Elves that would have none to do with their isle-kind. Where the Altmer sought to focus on dracochrysalis, or keeping elder magic bound before it could change into something lesser (and act which ironically required aetherial surplus), the Ayleids harvested castaway creatia from Oblivion by entering a pact with the masters of the Void, the Princes of Misrule.
 
Ultima Reality said:

Before Oblivion, there was Nocturnal.

Nocturnal existed before this reality was even imagined, and she will ride its destruction into the next

Evergloam, Nocturnal's ever-shifting domain of twilight and gloom, that somehow seems to be adjacent to every other realm of reality. In the dark, if you turn and look quickly, you can almost glimpse it.

Click to expand...
^ This is the tidbit about Nocturnal's domain extending across all realms.

This implies that Nocturnal is the Daedric Prince of darkness. Ok yeah we knew that already. At most from this you can extrapolate that her "realm" in Oblivion is the "empty spaces" in between the realms, which yeah it's pretty op. But it's an exaggeration to say that it's literally all of Oblivion, nothing even implies that.

Ultima Reality said:
Nocturnal heavily implies that Meridia was defeated by her, and considering that she says this while about to consume her Knight into darkness, I am pretty sure that's the case.

It isn't explicitly said that she forced them to do it, but the fact she made the other Princes sign a Nymic Oath is treated as a big deal within the text itself, which even goes as far as stating that Nocturnal "took on her mantle as Ur-Dra of Oblivion" (i.e the Primordial Daedra who exists as a direct aspect of the Original Void) upon doing that, so it most definitely is a valid feat for her. It isn't even the only thing pointing at her being the most powerful Daedra, either, ESO Summerset has a Psijic Mage explicitly stating that she is the oldest and most powerful Daedric Prince, and associating her power with her status as the Ur-Dra.
Click to expand...
Ok do I really need to explain why "Join Meridia in my eternal darkness" is in no way shape or form even remotely implying that she "stomped" Meridia.

You said it yourself it doesn't say that she forced them. And it's not like this is the first time a contract has been made between the Daedric Princes. Hell there's one in ESO that Sotha Sil did with the other Princes together with Azura. And no I'm not disputing that she isn't "the first born".

Ultima Reality said:
snip
Click to expand...
I agree we don't have much specific information about the Towers and most of the protection stuff comes form the Infernal City. But every time a Tower has fallen a major catastrophic event has occurred, and I'm just saying it doesn't make any sense for Alessia pact to be the reason for the Daedric Princes being unable to enter Mundus, because they could've been able to invade any time before or after that. The Towers holding the metaphysical structure of Mundus is implied by the events that happen following the destruction of them.

That text doesn't actually suggest that the White-Gold Tower is made specifically to unmake Mundus, at least not to me. Considering it's construction implies the complete opposite. The Aylied at least created one of the Towers, maybe more who knows, and the Towers mirror the Wheel of the provinces, which mirror the Wheel in the continents surrounding Tamriel, which mirror the Wheel of the plane(t)s around Nirn, which mirror Mundus being the center of the Wheel of Aurubis. Not to mention that White-Gold is a Wheel of it's own. And the Wheel is obviously a symbol of creation, so it doesn't make sense to create it with the intention of destruction.
 
The purpose of the Towers is so that Mundus doesn't get swallowed by Oblivion, but the only tower that actually stops Daedra from entering Mundus is White Gold Tower. Before the Dragonfires the Daedra could freely enter Mundus if they wanted. So Dagon was at full power in TES IV
 
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