• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

The Elder Scrolls Revision IV: Oblivion

Quick question is there some bit of the lore that I missed which would make whirlwind sprint do something cooler than just launch you forward
 
Paul Frank said:
Quick question is there some bit of the lore that I missed which would make whirlwind sprint do something cooler than just launch you forward
Click to expand...
Since thu'um is unrestricted in lore, Dovah runs across Tamriel at Sanic speeds and makes the Barry Allens and Wally Wests very jealous
 
TacticalNuke002 said:
Since thu'um is unrestricted in lore, Dovah runs across Tamriel at Sanic speeds and makes the Barry Allens and Wally Wests very jealous
Click to expand...
too bad flash can turn while sprinting ovo

@meta not 1-B with infinite speed because dovahkiins bow isn't as strong as when it was used on Lorkhan and from what I've seen we don't accept faster than ftl speeds for objects with KE
 
Paul Frank said:
TacticalNuke002 said:
Since thu'um is unrestricted in lore, Dovah runs across Tamriel at Sanic speeds and makes the Barry Allens and Wally Wests very jealous
Click to expand...
too bad flash can turn while sprinting ovo
@meta not 1-B with infinite speed because dovahkiins bow isn't as strong as when it was used on Lorkhan and from what I've seen we don't accept faster than ftl speeds for objects with KE
Click to expand...
Your last sentence makes no sence. "We don't accept ftl speeds for objects with KE". My punch has KE and if i have striking speed thats faster then light does that mean that i can't use my punch
 
I'm just repeating what I read on the harkon v boros thread

The man with the Midas touch wrote:

This site doesn't allow Faster than light Kinetic energy calculations anyway. So the infinite speed Arrow feat would not be applied to either Harkons or the Dovahkinns profiles.


Kinetic Energy Feats


No kinetic energy for faster than light speeds: Kinetic energy calculated for faster than light objects, or more precise for objects for which v299792458m/s, is not considered legitimate. That is because the kinetic energy of an object, using the correct physical description through relativistic mechanics, would require infinite energy to reach the speed of light, and for objects above the speed of light the equations wouldn't return real values. Since the energy would approach infinity towards the speed of light it also isn't allowed to use relativistic speed as an approximation for the kinetic energy of faster than light objects, since by using an approximation close enough to the speed of light any given value could be reached through that method.
 
They were saying that you can't calculate kinetic energy for objects that are ftl, not that the arrow doesn't have infinite speed. Reaching the sun in few seconds is infinite speed. And the arrow does that when Dovahkiin uses it, not just Auriel
 
So i have been wondering this for a while right

But are the ma'iqs in oblivion and skyrim the same person or are they different people just all with the same name like he implies
 
Does the name "M'aiq"el Kirkbride mean anything to you guys?

Maybe by saying that this M'aiq is a liar, Bethesda means to say that Michael Kirkbride is a liar, which is an indirect way of saying that c0da is non-canon.

Deepest lore
 
Ok I'm just going to repeat my points from the fiamma thread before it was hakai'd

Prisoner metaphysics needs to be explained on the profiles right now it's just listed as the justification for acausality and that's it it's also explained a blog but considering how it's used in almost every fight to argue that the protagonist wins due to prisoner metaphysics picking the best scenario no matter how unlikely and that it allows the prisoner to have all items at any point in the game no matter what and it's even being used to argue that you can't restrict items because of it.

The sheer amount of things that it is used as an argument for should show that it and daedric and aedric artifacts need to be explained on the page or at the very least have a link to the blog explaining them on the page i.e list prisoner metaphysics somewhere on the page besides in acausality and then link it to the blog explaining it

This is important because as it stands it's even being used to argue that prisoner metaphysics means

1 you can't restrict dovahkiins items so then he can't have a fight with 99% of people in his lower tiers

2 even if dovahkiin loses 99% of the time that 1% means he wins the fight due to metaphysics this one means he literally can't have any fights as either he gets stomped and has 0% chance to win or he wins 1 time out of 100 but lol metaphysics so he wins the fight

Tl;dr at least leave a note stating that tes protagonists have prisoner metaphysics and leave a link to the blog because people need to know that they can make almost 0 fair matches with elderscrolls protagonists under these conditions the best case would be explaining on the profile how it works but still
 
Range: Extended Melee Range, Continental with cosmic awareness (can perceive law breaking and crimes all over Tamriel)

Stamina: High (Can pursue criminal scum for days)
 
StarSlayer666 said:
Range: Extended Melee Range, Continental with cosmic awareness (can perceive law breaking and crimes all over Tamriel)

Stamina: High (Can pursue criminal scum for days)
Click to expand...
Search Oblivion Guards on Jokes battle wikia
 
Okay, so Ultima and I are going to make the Nerevarine profile, and I fill we need to address the big elephant in the room. Whether or not the Nerevarine attains CHIM.

I believe it is very unreasonable to assume they don't and would in fact leave their character arc incomplete, but I will explain in detail on my next post.
 
ok, I have to ask ... how did he get the CHIM? Did he read and understand Vivec's 36 sermons or is there a part where he is clearly / metaphorically / ambiguously told that he gets it?.
 
Introductio

Okay, so CHIM and the Nerevarine. Where exactly does the idea that the Hortator Reincarnated achieves CHIM, and why is it such a point of contention among the TES Lore Community? Is it confirmed, is it canon, or is it just speculation? Well, one thing at a time.

The answer to these questions is rather complicated, as things often are, so it'll have to be slowly broken down and properly explained to be understandable, specially for casual fans.

The notion that the Nerevarine attains (or will attain) CHIM comes primarily from The 36 Lessons of Vivec, the series of metaphysical sermons written by the Living God of Morrowind, which are also the texts from which the concept of CHIM originates to begin with.

A good portion of the 36 Lessons are dedicated to Lord Indoril Nerevar and his strange relationship with the God Vivec, who acts as the Hortator's mentor and spiritual guide. Throughout the text, Vivec will often deliver obtuse philosophical sermons directly to Nerevar, so that he may learn the nature of the universe and become a "Ruling King".

Those of you that familiar with my Metaphysics & Philosophy Elder Scrolls Blog will know that the term "Ruling King" is used to describe individuals that have mastered CHIM, the Secret Syllable of Royalty, and thus stand stand as transcendent beings above the Aurbis, which becomes theirs to rule and shape as they will. So basically, Vivec is trying to teach Nerevar how to attain CHIM and become the next Ruling King.

However, as one reads through the 36 Lessons and pays close attention to their meaning, it becomes increasingly apparent that these sermons aren't intended for Lord Indoril Nerevar, but rather the Nerevarine. At their basest, the 36 Lessons can be seen as Vivec's way of guiding the prophecized Incarnate on their path to path to taking Nerevar's mantle to become the Hortator and defeat Dagoth Ur, and ultimately attain transcendence.

Alright, now that I've given you a hopefully comprehensive introduction, it's time to look into the 36 Lessons of Vivec proper. Buckle up folks, because this gets weird and interpretative. Worth nothing that a lot of what I'm going to say here are based on the interpretations found in the New Whirling School, which are a lot more in-depth.

The Analysis
Vivec's Lessons contain in total Thirty-Six and One Sermons, but luckly only a handful are required analyzing to make my point here. Namely, Sermons Five, Six, Eleven, Thirteen, and Fifteen. So let's go through them in order.

Sermons Five and Six

In the Lessons, Vivec and Nerevar first meet during Sermon 5, which already has references that can be linked to the Nerevarine and CHIM. These are the first words Vivec says to Nerevar:

"You can hear the words, so run away
Come Hortator, unfold into a clear unknown,
Stay quiet until you've slept in the yesterday,
And say no elegies for the melting stone."
Vivec tells Nerevar to "unfold into a clear unknown", which is the opposite of what happens to an Ehlnofey in Sermon 4, who folds himself so much he's reduced to nothing but his "milk" (DNA), his purest essence. In contrast, by unfolding Nerevar will evolve in complexity until he becomes an unknown, unpredictable force of change, like Vivec.

Vivec tells Nerevar to "sleep in the yesterday", which is already a reference to the Nerevarine, who's being asked to immerse themselves in their past life as Nerevar.

And Vivec also tells Nerevar to "say no elegies for the melting stone", which is referring to the transformation of the solid and static to the liquid and mutable, which is attained through fire, a symbol for divine enlightnment in 36 Lessons.

Vivec's only spoken four lines to Nerevar and already the attainment of CHIM is being set up.

Next is Sermon 6, which is entirely composed of a long, introductory speech Vivec delivered to Nerevar. It has a lot of fascinating ideas about the ALMSIVI, and also introduces the concept of the Six Walking Ways, but for the purposes of this discussion we need only focus on a few lines:

"There will be a splendor in your name when it is said to be true.
Six are the guardians of Veloth, three before and they are born again, and they will test you until you have the proper tendencies of a hero.
There is a world that is sleeping and you must guard against it."
Vivec speaks of a splendor hidden within Nerevar's name. This is a direct reference to CHIM, which primarily means "Royalty", but can also be translated to "Starlight" and "High Splendor". This splendor will only come when "it is said to be true", as in, when the Incarnate finally becomes the Nerevarine and takes the mantle of Hortator. Until then, the splendor in their name won't be realized.

Vivec speaks of the six guardians of Veloth, the Three Good Daedra and the Tribunal Gods, and he says that they will test him (The Nerevarine) until he becomes a true Hero.

Finally, Vivec speaks of a world that is sleeping that Nerevar must guard against. This is a direct reference to Dagoth Ur, the dreaming dead god who is prophecized to be defeated by the Nerevarine.

By this point I don't think there's any lingering doubt that these sermons are intended for the Nerevarine, and not Nerevar.
Sermons Eleven, Thirteen, and Fifteen

Finally, we reach Sermons 11, 13, and 15. Together they are called "The Three Lessons of Ruling Kings", and they are where the real meat of the analysis is found. So let's dive deep into them.

"The waking world is the amnesia of dream. All motifs can be mortally wounded. Once slain, themes turn into the structure of future nostalgia. Do not abuse your powers or they will lead you astray. They will become lost and resentful and finally become pregnant with the seed of folly. Soon you will be the grandparent of a broken state. You will be mocked. It will fall apart like a stone that recalls that it is really water."
Vivec begins the Lessons by establishing that the Universe is a Dream, and that by understanding this one may learn to manipulate all themes and motifs of reality, but he also warns that these powers can't be abused lest you fall apart. This is talking about CHIM and Zero-Sum, quite clearly.

"Ordeals you should face unimpeded by the world of restriction. The splendor of stars is Ayem's domain. The selfishness of the sea is Seht's. I rule the middle air. All else is earth and under your temporal command. There is no bone that cannot be broken, except for the heart bone. You will see it twice in your lifetimes. Take what you can the first time and let us do the rest."
Again he talks about how Nerevar will have control over the world, ruling it while unbound by restrictions. He also mentions the Heart Bone (The Heart of Lorkhan), which the Hortator will see twice in their lifetimes, first as Nerevar and then as the Nerevarine.

"The ruling king is armored head to toe in brilliant flame. He is redeemed by each act he undertakes. His death is only a diagram back to the waking world. He sleeps the second way. The Sharmat is his double, and therefore you wonder if you rule nothing.
Hortator and Sharmat, one and one, eleven, an inelegant number. Which of the ones is the more important? Could you ever tell if they switched places? I can and that is why you will need me."
Vivec names the Hortator (The Nerevarine) as the Ruling King, who is adorned in brilliant flame and who can escape to the waking world. He also names the Sharmat (Dagoth Ur) as his opposite, and how together they are the "One and One, Eleven". This is stabilizing the sacred numerology of the Lessons and how they relate to CHIM.

In Sermon 29, 11 is listed as the number of the Master (Ruling King), while 1 is the number of the Tower (The "I", the individual), and 2 is the number of the Enantiomorph (Rebel and King opposing one anothers). 11 is 1 and 1. 1 + 1 = 2, and 1 - 1 = 0. To become a Ruling King, the Nerevarine must overcome his double and stand above this dualism.

"The sword is the cross and ALMSIVI is the Triune house around it. If there is to be an end I must be removed. The ruling king must know this, and I will test him. I will murder him time and again until he knows this. I am the defender of the last and the last."
Vivec speaks about how he must be removed in order for the end to be reached. This is because Vivec is a Ruling King, and as established before, the Ruling King is unique, he is One, and thus can have no equivalent. The Nerevarine therefore must surpass Vivec in order to become the new Ruling King. Vivec also speaks of testing and murdering the Nerevarine again and again until they realize their goal, referring to the False Incarnates.

"The ruling king is to stand against me and then before me. He is to learn from my punishment. I will mark him to know. He is to come as male or female. I am the form he must acquire.
Because a ruling king that sees in another his equivalent rules nothing."
The idea is repeated once again. Vivec will stand against the Nerevarine until he is overcome, because the Ruling King must have no equivalent. He also speaks of how the Nerevarine will come as either male or female, but ultimately must become like Vivec (Both male and female simultaneously while also transcending them), a reference to the fact that he who attains CHIM transcends duality.

"The ruling king will remove me, his maker. This is the way of all children. His greatest enemy is the Sharmat, who is the false dreamer. You or he is the shingle, Hortator. Beware the wrong walking path. Beware the crime of benevolence. Behold him by his words.
(...)
You alone, though you come again and again, can unmake him. Whether I allow it is within my wisdom. Go unarmed into his den with these words of power: AE GHARTOK PADHOME [CHIM] AE ALTADOON. Or do not. The temporal myth is man. Reach heaven by violence. This magic I give to you: the world you will rule is only an intermittent hope and you must be the letter written in uncertainty."
Again the ideas are repeated. The Nerevarine must overcome both their antecedent Vivec and their double Dagoth Ur to become the Ruling King. And to succeeded in doing so they must attain CHIM, here spelled out explicitly through a phrase in Ehlnofex (Translated to "The Hands of Change are the Weapons of Royalty").

Vivec also states that the Nerevarine must "Reach Heaven by Violence", because only through their pain and suffering can they attain transcendence (This is a key part of Vivec's philosophy, see Sermon 32 for more). Finally, he says that the Nerevarine must be "a letter written in uncertainty", which is a term Vivec used to describe himself in Sermon 4, referring to how as a Ruling King he is unbound by laws, restrictions and definitions, and thus cannot be measured or predicted.
And these are all the relevant excerpts from the Lessons.

Conclusion
As one can read, the 36 Lessons of Vivec make it extremely clear that the Nerevarine is a being guided to attain CHIM and become the next Ruling King following the conclusion of their journey, by defeating their opposite equal, and taking the place of their antecedent teacher. CHIM is the Nerevarine's destiny, the endpoint of their journey, the crown that they will wear after they overcome all opposition and trials.

If you deny that the Nerevarine ultimately attained CHIM, you are literally denying them the conclusion of their character arc, leaving a gaping hole where an ending would be. The Nerevarine must attain CHIM as the culmination of their journey, everything in the 36 Lessons makes this clear. CHIM is the Nerevarine's final destiny, after all. If they don't reach it, all of Vivec's efforts are in vain.
 
It is a word in Ehlnofex (The Old Tongue of the Gods), meaning "Royalty", or "Starlight" and "High Splendour".
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Ezaru
Issues with how Elder Scrolls gets it's H1-B and H1-A ratings
Replies
2
Views
889
Ezaru
Ezaru
FaxNovuuuuu
The Elder Scrolls Half-Time Revisions
5 6 7
Replies
263
Views
21K
Minos_the_Judge
Minos_the_Judge
Ultima_Reality
  • Locked
The Elder Scrolls Revisions (Big ones)
5 6 7
Replies
273
Views
32K
Antvasima
Antvasima
StarSlayer666
  • Locked
The Elder Scrolls Revision V: Skyrim
2 3
Replies
82
Views
2K
StarSlayer666
StarSlayer666
Dargoo_Faust
  • Locked
The Elder Scrolls Revisions II: Daggerfall
11 12 13
Replies
481
Views
11K
Crabwhale
Crabwhale
Back
Top