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The DC Multiverse and Mathematical Dimensions

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DumanisDemiurgos

DumanisDemiurgos

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http://static6.comicvine.com/upload...111288111/5223869-jla+v2+(2009)+-+page+89.jpg

Darkseid speaks of 28 mathematical dimensions that the Sphere of the Gods encompasses. Keep in mind, this was in 2009, when the Multiverse obstensibly only contained 52 universes, so he could not be talking about the 52 known universes of Creation, since there are apparently less dimensions than universes.

The WildStorm Multiverse is 196833-dimensional. This is indisputable, in my opinion. By the way, WildStorm is canon to the DC Universe as a whole.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/UdMDPgmfYO...deKGAAWLy0iOjAQFSGSQ7CQNPVsqKog7A6rJk0Kejg=s0

There is also a statement of there being at least 52 mathematical dimensions within the Multiverse. The fact that the bartender specifically had to note that the 52nd dimension was a pocket one means that there does exist a 52nd mathematical dimension.

http://i.imgur.com/Cv5eqqZ.jpg
 
Well, Darkseid's statement may be useful, especially as it is a Grant Morrison comicbook, and he defined the DC multiverse in Multiversity.

Kid Devil seems more like a non-serious statement about pocket universes, and as such cannot be used.

I am extremely uncertain about whether or not we can use Warren Ellis' Planetary book as a canon statement to DC Comics, unless the number is referred to in a non-offhanded manner within the regular DC Universe.

We would also need to consider how the DC cosmic entities, especially the Vertigo characters, would be affected by this?

I would like to get more staff input.
 
Basically, the problem is that Grant Morrison's 28 Dimensions, and Warren Ellis' 196833 dimensions contradict each other, and the former is the one who actually defined DC's cosmology, whereas the latter did not write a story for the regular DC continuity.
 
"Kid Devil seems more like a non-serious statement about pocket universes, and as such cannot be used."

I disagree, considering that he specifically had to note that it was a pocket dimension, but I can see where you are coming from.

"I am extremely uncertain about whether or not we can use Warren Ellis' Planetary book as a canon statement to DC Comics, unless the number is referred to in a non-offhanded manner within the regular DC Universe."

As I have stated before, WildStorm is canon to the DC Comics Multiverse, and its main universe is known as Earth-50 in DC Comics.

"We would also need to consider how the DC cosmic entities, especially the Vertigo characters, would be affected by this?"

Most of the most powerful ones scale to this.
 
The problem is that I think that Wildstorm was considered as separate from the regular DC Multiverse at the time that Planetary was written. Does Earth-50 refer to before or after Flashpoint?
 
It does seem contradictory to me to rate all of the Endless as 196833-dimensional, when Neil Gaiman wrote Dream as barely able to rewrite a single universal timeline.
 
I mean, from that perspective, we likely rate him too high as it is, so this may be a case of different writers severely contradicting each other again, with no true effect on each other's stories.
 
By the way.

In Grant Morrison's Multiversity, Pax Americana Captain Atom refers to the whole of the multiverse as being 11-Dimensional.

The New Gods reside in the Sphere of the Gods, yes. However, they have no feats that's put them at Hyperversal level, and New Genesis is often refered to as "The Fourth World", or "Fourth Dimension".

I can accept the 28 Dimensions, but not all others.
 
28 dimensions seems more reasonable given that it comes from the Multiversity writer, yes.
 
@Antvasima

Planetary #1, the story with the 196,833-Dimensional statement, was released in 1999, and at the time Wildstorm and DC Comics were not the same continuity.

This contradicts most statements of the DC Multiverse, much like Marvel's Dormammu and his 1-A Feat.

I think it's best to leave the characters as they are...
 
Okay. Thank you. Although I probably do not have the time and energy to read it.
 
In any case, if we accept 28 dimensions, we likely need to update all of the major DC cosmic entities to 1-B.
 
I mean, Michael and Destiny probably scale from it, and the others scale from them.
 
I think it's best to leave them as is.

11-12 Dimensional is far more consistent.

The Ultimator is another big example of why it is consistent.

http://i.imgur.com/XiBPJzb.jpg He is 10th Dimensional, and calls it the "Ultimate Dimension of all"

http://i.imgur.com/XiUKKoO.jpg He calls himself absolutely everything and all dimensions.

http://i.imgur.com/D0LZxm2.jpg He is casually defeated by Dream of the Endless speaking.

The overall tone of the storyline is silly, yes, but it is canonical and it's a major feat that goes well with Destiny of the Endless being portrayed as beyond the DC Multiverse.
 
Well, we currently scale them from professor Hamilton's statement during the "Our Worlds At War" crossover. It is technically likely no more reliable than the one from Darkseid during Grant Morrison's "Rock of Ages" story in his Justice League run.
 
Ultimator was likely just a story that Mxyzptlk made up though. Only parody characters showed up inside of it. Meaning, it was not the same Dream. It was named something else.
 
That should probably not be taken too seriously, or canonical. Mxyzptlk was clearly shown to be telling a tall tale within the story itself.
 
Yes. But this was literally just a story that he was telling, and it was filled with differently-named parody characters.

From which comicbook is that scan?
 
Also, do you have the Pax Americana scan with Captain Atom mentioning 11 dimensions? I vaguely remember it as 8.
 
"Basically, the problem is that Grant Morrison's 28 Dimensions, and Warren Ellis' 196833 dimensions contradict each other, and the former is the one who actually defined DC's cosmology, whereas the latter did not write a story for the regular DC continuity."

I have no idea how the statements contradict each other. Like, at all.

"The problem is that I think that Wildstorm was considered as separate from the regular DC Multiverse at the time that Planetary was written. Does Earth-50 refer to before or after Flashpoint?"

Pre-Flashpoint.

"It does seem contradictory to me to rate all of the Endless as 196833-dimensional, when Neil Gaiman wrote Dream as barely able to rewrite a single universal timeline."

In Sandman, the terms "Universe", "Multiverse", "Cosmos", and "Creation" are used in the "totality of all existence" definition, not the "set of spacetime that contains mass-energy and laws of physics" definition.

"I mean, from that perspective, we likely rate him too high as it is, so this may be a case of different writers severely contradicting each other again, with no true effect on each other's stories."

Where is the severe contradiction again? Low ends cannot be used to arbitrarily create "contradictions" between different writers.

"By the way.

In Grant Morrison's Multiversity, Pax Americana Captain Atom refers to the whole of the multiverse as being 11-Dimensional."

Scans please?

"The New Gods reside in the Sphere of the Gods, yes. However, they have no feats that's put them at Hyperversal level, and New Genesis is often refered to as "The Fourth World", or "Fourth Dimension".

I can accept the 28 Dimensions, but not all others."

The true forms of the New Gods can be considered Hyperverse level, and last time I checked, what a plane of existence is called often has no bearing on how many dimensions that it has.
 
The true forms of the New Gods have absolutely no feats that render them Hyperverse level, nor does any other being of the Sphere of the Gods.

We can't take one statement in one panel of 28 Dimensions (Which, by the way, wasn't written by Grant Morrison, Ant, that scan is from JLA Vol 2) and scale all of the DC Comics, ignoring consistency and feats.

The DC Multiverse is more consistently written as the same size as "ours". Things such as the mentions of 11-12D universes in Our Worlds at War, Imperix and the 11th Dimension and the Ultimator help prove my point.

At best the true forms of New Gods are 2-C, while Darkseid and Highfather are 2-B.
 
The New Gods have consistently been shown as far below that scale. The mere ability to travel in 28 directions with the help of technology does not make them 28-dimensional in themselves.

The problem with DC Comics and Marvel Comics as a whole, is that there is almost no coherence whatsoever between different writers and stories.

Hence, we get mentions of the multiverse being 11-dimensional, 28-dimensional, or even 196833-dimensional, but the different writers are generally not the slightest bit aware of each others' definitions, or if they are, almost consistently completely ignore them.

To draw a line between Wildstorm to scale Vertigo characters, each of whom are very loosely tied to DC, seems very uncertain.

Also, please stop chopping up my posts as quotes. It is rude/dismissive, and spams the page with unnecessary text.
 
In any case, you definitely seem to be Tonathan100, who was banned previously.
 
@Matthew Really? I thought that the scan was from "Rock of Ages"?

Anyway, I agree that it makes most sense for the DC Multiverse to be 11-dimensional like our own.
 
@Antvasima

The Url of the pick says "JLA Vol 2 2009", but I am trying to find the specific issue, bear with me.

Also, I was mistaken on the Captain Adam bit, he only mentions 8th Dimensions, but he does contain the explosion that creates the Thought Robot, so he is definitely higher than that.
 
I said that we can scale the true forms of the New Gods to this information, not the avatars/shards who are consistently less powerful than that.

Not to mention that the existence of editors, not to mention the fact that new writers have to read the previous runs to write new ones, puts a damper on the claim that comic books have almost no coherence whatsoever.

Both WildStorm and Vertigo characters have made appearances in the main DC Comics universe, so we can draw those lines.

I will stop chopping up your post as quotes.
 
@DunamisDemiurgos

The True Forms of the New Gods have absolutely no feats beyond 2-B.

They can create universes with thoughts and are larger than the 52 universes combined by far, but that's about it.

Also, we can't use 1999 Wildstorm to scale Modern DC. Wildstorm only merged with DC in 2011 with Flashpoint. Also, even if the events of that story qualify as canon still, they contradict other cosmologies.
 
The editors generally do not care enough about or remember offhanded obscure mentions such as these to coordinate the writers.

Even Tom Brevoort, who is the by far most knowledgeable editor in comics today, did not know what a "Multi-Eternity" was.

For DC Comics, Dan Didio has as a policy not to care at all, to the point of actively tearing down any logical coherence whatsoever in continuity.

In any case, the stories of each company are littered with absolutely staggering power-scaling inconsistencies.
 
As for the New Gods, their true forms have been mentioned as existing 4-dimensionally across several universes, or as being larger than universes, and rescaled in size by boom tubes, but that's it. We definitely cannot scale them as a high level of infinity. That is final. I would advise you to immediately and permanently drop this.
 
If that is "Rock of Ages" we might be able to use 28 dimensions though.
 
After Matthew closed this thread, I talked with him about this topic, and it seems like Grant Morrison, the writer who mapped and defined DC Comics' current multiversal structure in the "Final Crisis" and "Multiversity" events, has repeatedly stated that it is based on 11-dimensional string theory.

https://www.pastemagazine.com/artic...e-universes-grant-morrison-merges-string.html

http://www.newsarama.com/123-grant-morrison-on-final-crisis-1.html

https://youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&t=2743&v=zDXecRt_ryA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superstring_theory#Extra_dimensions

I suppose that this settles the matter then.
 
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