The DC Comics Cosmology Revision Project - Part 3

[Anime_Facts]

Sorry to interrupt the thread, I'm not very knowledgeable about comics scaling, and I have a question. How exactly does this separation by writers that will happen in the profiles work?

For example, will these downgrades from some God tiers to 1-C only be limited to DeMatteis cosmology? but can they continue to be 1-A in other keys that fit other writers' cosmology?

 

[Firestorm808]

I'm still trying to catch up on current arguments, but I was under the impression that Morrison's Overvoid met the context for 1-A.

"Q: How can a character be 1-A and above without an infinite-dimensional/infinitely-layered cosmology, then?
A: A good way to accomplish this would be to show that whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensions present on the setting. For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted. This argument generalizes to tiers higher than 1-A as well."

With the above in mind, we'll take a look at the locations that lead up to the Morrison's Overvoid. From the Blog, we have the following:

• Sphere of the Gods
  • An archetypal realm outside the corporeal reality[41] whose inhabitants live on a higher plane of existence than the inhabitants of the Orrery of Worlds.
  • The Sphere of the Gods is not part of the "material world" (i.e. the Orrery of Worlds)
  • The Sphere of the Gods holds platonic, archetypal realms and is inhabited by living ideas.
  • Gods and New Gods are self-aware ideas, and their weapons are concept and metaphor.
  • Myrra's life is not physical, it is idea.
  • The inhabitants of the Sphere of the Gods transcend time, for them events are an atemporal state of being compared to mortals who experience events as a sequential series of events.
  • With the Godsphere, we're already outside the conventional timelines.
  • Summary: Metaphysical Concepts are the basis of this level of reality
• Comic Book Limbo
  • The last outpost of existence, Limbo exists "nowhere" without time in the normal sense, it is the home of forgotten characters that are dumped from continuity. There are no stories in Limbo, except in the Book of Infinite Pages, which contains all the stories of Creation.
  • It goes one step further into nothingness, as such, if someone stays in Limbo for too long, they lose memories and disappear from everyone's memory.
  • Summary: Concepts and ideas begin to fade away.
• Monitor Sphere
  • An archetypal world and home to Nil, the world of the Monitors standing at the edge of the "art" and of the mind of God.
  • Space, time and scale are more meaningful, profound, with "time" in the Monitor Sphere referring to the clockwork pattern in the sky.
  • Time seems to function as a temporal dimension, because when it entered the Monitor Sphere, it form "beginnings" and "ends".
  • Nil is a fundamental world inhabited by primal forms.
  • Summary: Much like Limbo, concepts begin to fade into the Ovevoid.
• Omniverse Source Wall
  • The Source Wall is the limit to thought and the protective shell around the Multiverse, closing it off from the Greater Omniverse.
  • Summary: The Omniverse Source Wall is the cut-off point to all concepts outside the Ultimate Concept
• Monitor-Mind The Overvoid/The Source
  • One non-dual God that Morrison metaphorically refers to as the blank page of the comic.
  • The Source is described as integrating all dual concepts and cannot be contained or halved.
  • The Source is the ultimate concept above all others. No other concepts exist in the Source. The Source just is.
  • Summary: The Single concept of the Source transcends all other concepts.
• Summary:
  • As we go through the levels, the number of dimensions becomes inapplicable as the general concept of spatial dimensions and time starts to get stripped away. It all becomes conceptual.
  • Beings in the Orrery are made of matter and operate within physical space and time.
  • Beings in the Sphere of the Gods are pure idea and operate within metaphysical story.
  • Beings in Limbo lack even story.
  • Nil takes this pattern to the next level, as far as reasonably possible before achieving the pure absolute Nothingness/Oneness of the Overvoid.
  • The world of the Monitors is the Blank, the Nil, the Gone, the edge of everything where form and meaning surrender to the nothingness of the Overvoid.
  • Summary: The Overvoid itself is conceptually beyond Time, Space, Dimension, etc. It is the one true Ultimate Concept. It is similar to other canvas-like profiles.
    • https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Swirl_of_the_Root
      • Like the Overvoid, it is the grand mass of nothingness that all concepts in existence sprang forth from, and is where everything returns when it is destroyed.
      • Like the Overvoid, it is completely transcendent of the rest of reality, an unrestrained domain free from binary opposition.
      • "Exists at the summit of all dimensional theories" seems a given for anyone if you are the literal source of all other concepts.

From what I could tell, 1-A seems fine for Morrison's Overvoid.

 

[Elizio33]

I'm still trying to catch up on current arguments, but I was under the impression that Morrison's Overvoid met the context for 1-A.

"Q: How can a character be 1-A and above without an infinite-dimensional/infinitely-layered cosmology, then?
A: A good way to accomplish this would be to show that whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensions present on the setting. For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted. This argument generalizes to tiers higher than 1-A as well."

With the above in mind, we'll take a look at the locations that lead up to the Morrison's Overvoid. From the Blog, we have the following:

• Sphere of the Gods
  • An archetypal realm outside the corporeal reality[41] whose inhabitants live on a higher plane of existence than the inhabitants of the Orrery of Worlds.
  • The Sphere of the Gods is not part of the "material world" (i.e. the Orrery of Worlds)
  • The Sphere of the Gods holds platonic, archetypal realms and is inhabited by living ideas.
  • Gods and New Gods are self-aware ideas, and their weapons are concept and metaphor.
  • Myrra's life is not physical, it is idea.
  • The inhabitants of the Sphere of the Gods transcend time, for them events are an atemporal state of being compared to mortals who experience events as a sequential series of events.
  • With the Godsphere, we're already outside the conventional timelines.
  • Summary: Metaphysical Concepts are the basis of this level of reality
• Comic Book Limbo
  • The last outpost of existence, Limbo exists "nowhere" without time in the normal sense, it is the home of forgotten characters that are dumped from continuity. There are no stories in Limbo, except in the Book of Infinite Pages, which contains all the stories of Creation.
  • It goes one step further into nothingness, as such, if someone stays in Limbo for too long, they lose memories and disappear from everyone's memory.
  • Summary: Concepts and ideas begin to fade away.
• Monitor Sphere
  • An archetypal world and home to Nil, the world of the Monitors standing at the edge of the "art" and of the mind of God.
  • Space, time and scale are more meaningful, profound, with "time" in the Monitor Sphere referring to the clockwork pattern in the sky.
  • Time seems to function as a temporal dimension, because when it entered the Monitor Sphere, it form "beginnings" and "ends".
  • Nil is a fundamental world inhabited by primal forms.
  • Summary: Much like Limbo, concepts begin to fade into the Ovevoid.
• Omniverse Source Wall
  • The Source Wall is the limit to thought and the protective shell around the Multiverse, closing it off from the Greater Omniverse.
  • Summary: The Omniverse Source Wall is the cut-off point to all concepts outside the Ultimate Concept
• Monitor-Mind The Overvoid/The Source
  • One non-dual God that Morrison metaphorically refers to as the blank page of the comic.
  • The Source is described as integrating all dual concepts and cannot be contained or halved.
  • The Source is the ultimate concept above all others. No other concepts exist in the Source. The Source just is.
  • Summary: The Single concept of the Source transcends all other concepts.
• Summary:
  • As we go through the levels, the number of dimensions becomes inapplicable as the general concept of spatial dimensions and time starts to get stripped away. It all becomes conceptual.
  • Beings in the Orrery are made of matter and operate within physical space and time.
  • Beings in the Sphere of the Gods are pure idea and operate within metaphysical story.
  • Beings in Limbo lack even story.
  • Nil takes this pattern to the next level, as far as reasonably possible before achieving the pure absolute Nothingness/Oneness of the Overvoid.
  • The world of the Monitors is the Blank, the Nil, the Gone, the edge of everything where form and meaning surrender to the nothingness of the Overvoid.
  • Summary: The Overvoid itself is conceptually beyond Time, Space, Dimension, etc. It is the one true Ultimate Concept. It is similar to other canvas-like profiles.
    • https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Swirl_of_the_Root
      • Like the Overvoid, it is the grand mass of nothingness that all concepts in existence sprang forth from, and is where everything returns when it is destroyed.
      • Like the Overvoid, it is completely transcendent of the rest of reality, an unrestrained domain free from binary opposition.
      • "Exists at the summit of all dimensional theories" seems a given for anyone if you are the literal source of all other concepts.

From what I could tell, 1-A seems fine for Morrison's Overvoid.

You're absolutely right, Morrison's Overvoid is definitely 1-A. If this was a cosmology based 100% on Grant Morrison's work without the additions of Scott Snyder and James Tynion IV, the Overvoid would have been 1-A for the reasons you described.

 

[Firestorm808]

You're absolutely right, Morrison's Overvoid is definitely 1-A. If this was a cosmology based 100% on Grant Morrison's work without the additions of Scott Snyder and James Tynion IV, the Overvoid would have been 1-A for the reasons you described.

I would be fine with a Post-Snyder Retcon Key for the Overvoid.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

You're absolutely right, Morrison's Overvoid is definitely 1-A. If this was a cosmology based 100% on Grant Morrison's work without the additions of Scott Snyder and James Tynion IV, the Overvoid would have been 1-A for the reasons you described.

What were the retcons that Snyder and James made?

 

[Xearsay]

What were the retcons that Snyder and James made?

There aren’t any. They’re just arbitrarily claiming there’s retcons so they can have an excuse to cut out 99% of Morrison’s work.

 

[Xearsay]

You're absolutely right, Morrison's Overvoid is definitely 1-A. If this was a cosmology based 100% on Grant Morrison's work without the additions of Scott Snyder and James Tynion IV, the Overvoid would have been 1-A for the reasons you described.

The thing is, you didn’t even include 1% of Morrison’s work when you created this interpretation. You arbitrarily took certain pieces from two events Morrison as a writer headlined and then cut out everything else. Which doesn’t make any sense considering Morrison’s work is an accumulation of all his previous works.

Imagine taking only the final book within a series, skipping through it and cutting out certain pages from random chapters off none other than personal whim, then pasting these pages all throughout a separate book that already has its own story, in attempt to make one new book. Do you know how lost people would be reading that? Because thats basically the equivalent of what you did when trying to scale this cosmology.

And we know it’s personal whim too because for example, you claimed Morrisons Overvoid was retconned by Snyder’s under the new joint cosmology, then you went back and used solely Morrison’s interpretation of the Overvoid to unify it with Source after claiming it was retconned… So which is it?

This whole joint cosmology that you created seems to be more of made up, incoherent, nonsense in attempt to have your cake and eat it too, rather than an actual honest take.

 

[Firestorm808]

There aren’t any. They’re just arbitrarily claiming there’s retcons so they can have an excuse to cut out 99% of Morrison’s work.

The thing is, you didn’t even include 1% of Morrison’s work when you created this interpretation. You arbitrarily took certain pieces from two events Morrison as a writer headlined and then cut out everything else. Which doesn’t make any sense considering Morrison’s work is an accumulation of all his previous works.

Imagine taking only the final book within a series, skipping through it and cutting out certain pages from random chapters off none other than personal whim, then pasting these pages all throughout a separate book that already has its own story, in attempt to make one new book. Do you know how lost people would be reading that? Because thats basically the equivalent of what you did when trying to scale this cosmology.

And we know it’s personal whim too because for example, you claimed Morrisons Overvoid was retconned by Snyder’s under the new joint cosmology, then you went back and used solely Morrison’s interpretation of the Overvoid to unify it with Source after claiming it was retconned… So which is it?

This whole joint cosmology that you created seems to be more of made up, incoherent, nonsense in attempt to have your cake and eat it too, rather than an actual honest take.

Hold on. Let's not start throwing accusations. I'm still trying to catch up with the past pages.

Checking again, the proposal in the OP already has Grant Morrison's/Scott Snyder's/James Tynion IV's Cosmology under the same umbrella.

Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, The Source, The Presence are already proposed as 1-A.

Why was the topic of retcons brought up in the earlier pages? That's what's throwing me off.

 

[Xearsay]

Why was the topic of retcons brought up in the earlier pages? That's what's throwing me off.

Well it started after I proposed that the Vertigo Void shouldn’t be 1-A. After that Elizio basically claimed that if the supreme structures and beings of other cosmologies are to be downgraded, then the Overvoid should be downgraded too. The primary reason throughout the argument that Elizio gave was that Snyder retconned Morrison’s depictions of the Overvoid.

That’s basically how it happened.

My main counter was basically to say that this went against Ultima’s analysis of the Overvoid from part 2 of the revision project, and that removing Morrisons lore from both post 2000s and pre 2000s would defy this being partially Morrison’s cosmology.

 

[Firestorm808]

Well it started after I proposed that the Vertigo Void shouldn’t be 1-A. After that Elizio basically claimed that if the supreme structures and beings of other cosmologies are to be downgraded, then the Overvoid should be downgraded too. The primary reason throughout the argument that Elizio gave was that Snyder retconned Morrison’s depictions of the Overvoid.

That’s basically how it happened.

My main counter was basically to say that this went against Ultima’s analysis of the Overvoid from part 2 of the revision project, and that removing Morrisons lore from both post 2000s and pre 2000s would defy this being partially Morrison’s cosmology.

Okay. Looking over our Vertigo OP, I can see where the Vertigo Void's transcendence description is more generic than on a conceptual level compared to the others.

@Elizio33 @Deagonx Have we already reached a reconciliation on the Vertigo Void matter?

 

[Firestorm808]

@Elizio33

What concerns did you have regarding Scott Snyder's/James Tynion IV input on the Overvoid?

 

[LuciferX]

.Summary: The Overvoid itself is conceptually beyond Time, Space, Dimension, etc. It is the one true Ultimate Concept. It is similar to other canvas-like profiles. From what I could tell, 1-A seems fine for Morrison's Overvoid.

I disagree with this.

1. Sphere of Gods doesn't infinitely transcend orrey, "higher plane" just mean it's position in cosmology.

2. For Limbo, no space time is not beyond space time.

It should also be noted that simply existing in some alternate state of existence that lacks time and/or space is not really grounds for any tier in particular, as lacking such things does not translate to being superior to them, and would most often overlap with abilities like Acausality or Nonexistent Physiology. A good example of a case like this is Dormammu (Marvel Cinematic Universe), who is stated to exist in a realm "far beyond time," yet never actually displays any superiority over it, and is in fact vulnerable to time-based abilities due to his timeless nature.

3. Indeed Overvoid works as the canvas for creation and possbily contain higher realms but that doesn't prove this part of FAQ.

if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted. This argument generalizes to tiers higher than 1-A as well."

It's blatant NLF. There is zero evidence Overvoid exist beyond or unaffected by dimensions being added.

4. Transcending Concepts aren't enough to reach 1-A. Again NLF.

Overvoid doesn't qualify for 1-A tier and only scales to DC cosmology, likely 1-C level.

 

[Firestorm808]

I disagree with this.

1. Sphere of Gods doesn't infinitely transcend orrey, "higher plane" just mean it's position in cosmology.

2. For Limbo, no space time is not beyond space time.

3. Indeed Overvoid works as the canvas for creation and possbily contain higher realms but that doesn't prove this part of FAQ.

It's blatant NLF. There is zero evidence Overvoid exist beyond or unaffected by dimensions being added.

4. Transcending Concepts aren't enough to reach 1-A. Again NLF.

Overvoid doesn't qualify for 1-A tier and only scales to DC cosmology, likely 1-C level.

I didn't mention anything about the Sphere being infinitely transcendent to the Orrey. I don't see how that's relevant.

Again, I never said that Limbo is beyond the concepts of space and time.

We have statements that the mere concepts of time and spacial dimensions fade into the nothingness of the Ultimate Concept that is the Overvoid.

Do we have a precedent example where a location/entity Transcending All Concepts isn't enough to reach 1-A, in addition to the context previously mentioned?

 

[LuciferX]

I didn't mention anything about the Sphere being infinitely transcendent to the Orrey. I don't see how that's relevant.

Then What's the point of mentioning it there if it's not a transcendental realm?

Again, I never said that Limbo is beyond the concepts of space and time.

I thought you implied it by using no stories and without time phrases.

We have statements that the mere concepts of time and spacial dimensions fade into the nothingness of the Ultimate Concept that is the Overvoid.

Concept of time is irrelvant for it. Evidence for scan says that spatial dimensions fade in to nothingness?

Do we have a precedent example where a location/entity Transcending All Concepts isn't enough to reach 1-A, in addition to the context previously mentioned?

Shinza Bansho. Taji is beyond concepts and it includes concept of coordinates but still not enough to reach 1-A, because it's NLF indirectly.

 

[Firestorm808]

Shinza Bansho. Taji is beyond concepts and it includes concept of coordinates but still not enough to reach 1-A, because it's NLF indirectly.

I don't see any profiles relating to Shinza Bansho. Are there any staff discussions that you are referencing?

 

[PrinceofPein]

I don't see any profiles relating to Shinza Bansho. Are there any staff discussions that you are referencing?

In general, if you can prove you are above the concept of dimensions in a way that any amount of dimension added cannot reach you, it is enough for 1-A

 

[LuciferX]

In general, if you can prove you are above the concept of dimensions in a way that any amount of dimension added cannot reach you, it is enough for 1-A

Yes but there is no evidence for second part and nothing implies concepts includes "the concept of dimensions" in given reply above.

 

[LuciferX]

I don't see any profiles relating to Shinza Bansho. Are there any staff discussions that you are referencing?

Verse got nuked because of that reason. Here another example. Noah transcends concepts and exist outside of them.

 

[Firestorm808]

In general, if you can prove you are above the concept of dimensions in a way that any amount of dimension added cannot reach you, it is enough for 1-A

To reiterate:

• Beings in the Orrery are made of matter and operate within physical space and time.
• Beings in the Sphere of the Gods are pure idea and operate within a metaphysical story.
• Beings in Limbo lack the concept of story.
• Nil takes this pattern to the next level, as far as reasonably possible before achieving the pure absolute Nothingness/Oneness of the Overvoid.
  • Nil is a fundamental world inhabited by primal forms. Concepts here are as bare as you can get.
  • The concept of "Time" is a clockwork pattern in the sky with Nil itself being the last concept of space.
  • The concept of time was erased from Nil because of the Overvoid. The Overvoid would then go on to engulf Nil.
  • In a similar manner to Mandrakk, ideas are lost, engulfed, and forgotten in the Overvoid. The concepts of time and space were no different to the Overvoid.
• Summary: If you were to shove the concepts of time and space at the Overvoid, they would just get lost, engulfed, and forgotten in the Ultimate concept that is the Overvoid.
  • This effect is similar to that of Fate's Root. Those who have touched it directly have never returned to the world. Those who have managed to touch it cease to exist on the spot, going back to "where they came from", becoming absorbed into the Root, or something similar.

 

[PrinceofPein]

To reiterate:

• Beings in the Orrery are made of matter and operate within physical space and time.
• Beings in the Sphere of the Gods are pure idea and operate within a metaphysical story.
• Beings in Limbo lack the concept of story.
• Nil takes this pattern to the next level, as far as reasonably possible before achieving the pure absolute Nothingness/Oneness of the Overvoid.
  • Nil is a fundamental world inhabited by primal forms. Concepts here are as bare as you can get.
  • The concept of "Time" is a clockwork pattern in the sky with Nil itself being the last concept of space.
  • The concept of time was erased from Nil because of the Overvoid. The Overvoid would then go on to engulf Nil.
  • In a similar manner to Mandrakk, ideas are lost, engulfed, and forgotten in the Overvoid. The concepts of time and space were no different to the Overvoid.
• Summary: If you were to shove the concepts of time and space at the Overvoid, they would just get lost, engulfed, and forgotten in the Ultimate concept that is the Overvoid.
  • This effect is similar to that of Fate's Root. Those who have touched it directly have never returned to the world. Those who have managed to touch it cease to exist on the spot, going back to "where they came from", becoming absorbed into the Root, or something similar.

These can still be just +1D and still be true, I do not know much about Root though.
To make this 1-A is a bit of a NLF

 

[Firestorm808]

These can still be just +1D and still be true, I do not know much about Root though.
To make this 1-A is a bit of a NLF

From what you said earlier, we cannot add the concepts of time or dimensions to the overvoid. I don't see how that would imply +1D and still be true. You don't get lost, engulfed, and forgotten in something 1D more.

Do we have precedent staff determinations regarding similar situations involving an "ultimate concept" of sorts?

 

[PrinceofPein]

From what you said earlier, we cannot add the concepts of time or dimensions to the overvoid. I don't see how that would imply +1D and still be true. You don't get lost, engulfed, and forgotten in something 1D more.

Do we have precedent staff determinations regarding similar situations involving an "ultimate concept" of sorts?

I do not think so, but you can tag DT.
also this can also be BDE type 2

 

[Firestorm808]

I do not think so, but you can tag DT.
also this can also be BDE type 2

Beyond-Dimensional Existence

Beyond-Dimensional Existence on this wiki refers to the state of being of characters who exist outside, and are independent of, space and its dimensions. This is different from Zero-Dimensionality in that a zero dimensional thing is still spatial in nature, but simply lacks more than zero...

vsbattles.fandom.com

From the looks of it, the users examples on the ability page fall in the 1-A category, including the current profile of the Overvoid.

 

[Gasper]

Beyond-Dimensional Existence

Beyond-Dimensional Existence on this wiki refers to the state of being of characters who exist outside, and are independent of, space and its dimensions. This is different from Zero-Dimensionality in that a zero dimensional thing is still spatial in nature, but simply lacks more than zero...

vsbattles.fandom.com

From the looks of it, the users examples on the ability page fall in the 1-A category, including the current profile of the Overvoid.

No, being beyond or above dimensionality isn't 1-A anymore.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Beyond-Dimensional Existence

Beyond-Dimensional Existence on this wiki refers to the state of being of characters who exist outside, and are independent of, space and its dimensions. This is different from Zero-Dimensionality in that a zero dimensional thing is still spatial in nature, but simply lacks more than zero...

vsbattles.fandom.com

From the looks of it, the users examples on the ability page fall in the 1-A category, including the current profile of the Overvoid.

Type 2: Characters whose nature is defined by lacking spatiotemporal features and being superior to them in nature. These characters aren't necessarily superior to spacetime on every level, but just within the scope which they are shown. Due to transcending this spacetime they are immune to Spatial Manipulation and Time Manipulation of it. They furthermore inherit any benefits of Type 1.

they are superior to spacetime within the scope they are shown, not exactly 1-A.

 

[Firestorm808]

@DontTalkDT

We would appreciate your input regarding the following scenario:

"Q: How can a character be 1-A and above without an infinite-dimensional/infinitely-layered cosmology, then?
A: A good way to accomplish this would be to show that whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensions present on the setting. For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted. This argument generalizes to tiers higher than 1-A as well."

• Beings in the Orrery are made of matter and operate within physical space and time.
• Beings in the Sphere of the Gods are pure idea and operate within a metaphysical story.
• Beings in Limbo lack the concept of story.
• Nil takes this pattern to the next level, as far as reasonably possible before achieving the pure absolute Nothingness/Oneness of the Overvoid.
  • Nil is a fundamental world inhabited by primal forms. Concepts here are as bare as you can get.
  • The concept of "Time" is a clockwork pattern in the sky with Nil itself being the last concept of space.
• The Omniverse Source Wall is the cut-off point to all concepts outside the Ultimate Concept.
• The Overvoid
  • Summary: The Single concept of the Source transcends all other concepts.
    • The Overvoid is an immense awareness without limits or definition.
    • One non-dual God that Morrison metaphorically refers to as the blank page of the comic.
    • Described as integrating all dual concepts and cannot be contained or halved.
    • The ultimate concept above all others. No other concepts exist in the Source. The Source just is.
  • The concept of time was erased from Nil because of the Overvoid. The Overvoid would then go on to engulf Nil.
  • In a similar manner to Mandrakk, ideas are lost, engulfed, and forgotten in the Overvoid. The concepts of time and space were no different to the Overvoid.
  • Summary: If you were to shove the concepts of time and space at the Overvoid, they would just get lost, engulfed, and forgotten in the Ultimate concept that is the Overvoid.

Do we meet the characteristics for 1-A?

 

[LuciferX]

We would appreciate your input regarding the following scenario:
Do we meet the characteristics for 1-A?

And here the counter arguments.

I disagree with this.

1. Sphere of Gods doesn't infinitely transcend orrey, "higher plane" just mean it's position in cosmology.

2. For Limbo, no space time is not beyond space time.

It should also be noted that simply existing in some alternate state of existence that lacks time and/or space is not really grounds for any tier in particular, as lacking such things does not translate to being superior to them, and would most often overlap with abilities like Acausality or Nonexistent Physiology. A good example of a case like this is Dormammu (Marvel Cinematic Universe), who is stated to exist in a realm "far beyond time," yet never actually displays any superiority over it, and is in fact vulnerable to time-based abilities due to his timeless nature.

3. Indeed Overvoid works as the canvas for creation and possbily contain higher realms but that doesn't prove this part of FAQ.

if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted. This argument generalizes to tiers higher than 1-A as well."

It's blatant NLF. There is zero evidence Overvoid exist beyond or unaffected by dimensions being added.

4. Transcending Concepts aren't enough to reach 1-A. Again NLF.

Overvoid doesn't qualify for 1-A tier and only scales to DC cosmology, likely 1-C level.

 

[Robo432343]

@DontTalkDT

We would appreciate your input regarding the following scenario:

"Q: How can a character be 1-A and above without an infinite-dimensional/infinitely-layered cosmology, then?
A: A good way to accomplish this would be to show that whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensions present on the setting. For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted. This argument generalizes to tiers higher than 1-A as well."

• Beings in the Orrery are made of matter and operate within physical space and time.
• Beings in the Sphere of the Gods are pure idea and operate within a metaphysical story.
• Beings in Limbo lack the concept of story.
• Nil takes this pattern to the next level, as far as reasonably possible before achieving the pure absolute Nothingness/Oneness of the Overvoid.
  • Nil is a fundamental world inhabited by primal forms. Concepts here are as bare as you can get.
  • The concept of "Time" is a clockwork pattern in the sky with Nil itself being the last concept of space.
• The Overvoid
  • Summary: The Single concept of the Source transcends all other concepts.
    • One non-dual God that Morrison metaphorically refers to as the blank page of the comic.
    • Described as integrating all dual concepts and cannot be contained or halved.
    • The ultimate concept above all others. No other concepts exist in the Source. The Source just is.
  • The concept of time was erased from Nil because of the Overvoid. The Overvoid would then go on to engulf Nil.
  • In a similar manner to Mandrakk, ideas are lost, engulfed, and forgotten in the Overvoid. The concepts of time and space were no different to the Overvoid.
  • Summary: If you were to shove the concepts of time and space at the Overvoid, they would just get lost, engulfed, and forgotten in the Ultimate concept that is the Overvoid.

Do we meet the characteristics for 1-A?

This is what DT said
" you need evidence that up to infinite dimensions could be added and the character would still be superior. Basically: If you have no infinite hierarchy, you can still get 1-A if you proof that your character could be above an infinite hierarchy if there were one."

 

[Xearsay]

I’d also like if DontTalk could evaluate my own justification.

Justification: Monitor Mind the Overvoid is the infinite and eternal canvas/page of the comic that is independent to and completely transcendent and over all possible stories within it’s consciousness, and stands beyond all possibilities, concepts, thoughts, and contradictions which are resolved into its oneness.

- Monitor Mind is the page of the comic that functions as the canvas for all possible stories that can be drawn on it.

1. Morrison - “It contains everything—all good, all evil, all contradiction, all possibility. Just like the page of a comic. The first mark on the page could become anything. The mark is all possibility.”
2. The first mark on the page/Flaw which represented all possibilities of what the DC Multiverse/story can become was an infinitesimal spec within Monitor Minds consciousness.(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #1)
3. Due to the flaw/mark on the page being able to grow into anything within Monitor Mind, after Monitor Mind caged the flaw, Dax Novu witnessed the story within the cage progress turning into the structure Multiverse. Which would include the higher transcendent reality known as the Godsphere.
4. Story spreading within the Overvoid formed the history of the Monitor race.(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #1) A higher reality known as Nil and another layer of story which governs it, would also be inserted into the Overvoid and form around the story of the DC Multiverse, and yet the Overvoid still contained and transcended the entire hierarchy.

- Once you reach Monitor Mind, all concepts and contradictions are resolved into unity and everything is all non-dual Monitor Mind.

1. Morrison - “Yeah. Again, on the very edge of the art and the edge of the mind of God there are these two big concepts fighting – Superman and Mandrakk, Predation and Protection, Greed and Preservation, Ugly and Beautiful, Youth and Age, Good and Evil, Black and White, Is and Isn't and all the others. Beyond that crumbling ledge in Monitor-World, those concepts don't exist and it's all non-dual Monitor mind.”
2. After the Thought Robot blasted Mandrakk off Nil into the Overvoid, Mandrakk was said to be engulfed by the “mind of Monitor” until even the idea of him became lost.(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)
3. Source Wall separates our material universe from sublime non-dual omni awareness.(Green Lantern #1)
4. Morrison - “This identification with a timeless supermind containing and resolving within itself all possible thoughts and contradictions, is what many people, unsurprisingly, mistake for an encounter with “God.” However, given that this totality must logically include and resolve all possible thoughts and concepts, it can also be interpreted as an actual encounter with God.”

 

[Robo432343]

I’d also like if DontTalk could evaluate my own justification.

Justification: Monitor Mind the Overvoid is the infinite and eternal canvas/page of the comic that is independent to and completely transcendent and over all possible stories within it’s consciousness, and stands beyond all possibilities, concepts, thoughts, and contradictions which are resolved into its oneness.

- Monitor Mind is the page of the comic that functions as the canvas for all possible stories that can be drawn on it.

1. Morrison - “It contains everything—all good, all evil, all contradiction, all possibility. Just like the page of a comic. The first mark on the page could become anything. The mark is all possibility.”
2. The first mark on the page/Flaw which represented all possibilities of what the DC Multiverse/story can become was an infinitesimal spec within Monitor Minds consciousness.(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #1)
3. Due to the flaw/mark on the page being able to grow into anything within Monitor Mind, after Monitor Mind caged the flaw, Dax Novu witnessed the story within the cage progress turning into the structure Multiverse. Which would include the higher transcendent reality known as the Godsphere.
4. Story spreading within the Overvoid formed the history of the Monitor race.(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #1) A higher reality known as Nil and another layer of story which governs it, would also be inserted into the Overvoid and form around the story of the DC Multiverse, and yet the Overvoid still contained and transcended the entire hierarchy.

- Once you reach Monitor Mind, all concepts and contradictions are resolved into unity and everything is all non-dual Monitor Mind.

1. Morrison - “Yeah. Again, on the very edge of the art and the edge of the mind of God there are these two big concepts fighting – Superman and Mandrakk, Predation and Protection, Greed and Preservation, Ugly and Beautiful, Youth and Age, Good and Evil, Black and White, Is and Isn't and all the others. Beyond that crumbling ledge in Monitor-World, those concepts don't exist and it's all non-dual Monitor mind.”
2. After the Thought Robot blasted Mandrakk off Nil into the Overvoid, Mandrakk was said to be engulfed by the “mind of Monitor” until even the idea of him became lost.(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)
3. Source Wall separates our material universe from sublime non-dual omni awareness.(Green Lantern #1)
4. Morrison - “This identification with a timeless supermind containing and resolving within itself all possible thoughts and contradictions, is what many people, unsurprisingly, mistake for an encounter with “God.” However, given that this totality must logically include and resolve all possible thoughts and concepts, it can also be interpreted as an actual encounter with God.”

literally whats the point of this

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

literally whats the point of this

He assumes this because of the Firestorm take. Although everyone already came to the conclusion the Overvoid wouldn’t be reaching 1-A. He should of stopped but I guess he likes getting derailed.

 

[Xearsay]

literally whats the point of this

To have DontTalk evaluate it? It’s literally the first sentence.

He assumes this because of the Firestorm take. Although everyone already came to the conclusion the Overvoid wouldn’t be reaching 1-A. He should of stopped but I guess he likes getting derailed.

It doesn’t matter if you guys think it shouldn't be 1-A. As long as there’s evidence for it, it’s fine.

Also who did you ask to participate in these threads before commenting? You’re a previously inactive account that randomly appeared and started trying to influence the course of this massive thread without any staff approval, which is against the rules as other users got removed from the thread for these same reasons. So you along with them, should be removed from this discussion.

 

[Elizio33]

@Elizio33

What concerns did you have regarding Scott Snyder's/James Tynion IV input on the Overvoid?

The problem with this is that Grant Morrison's original idea of the Overvoid seems to have been discarded over the years, especially with Scott Snyder and James Tynion IV's stories implying that the void has an end. Here are Perpetua's own words: "Tell your masters I will escape. Tell them I will come to the end of the void and rip them limb from limb." Not to mention the most recent depiction of the Overvoid seen in Joshua Williamson's stories. If we were talking about a cosmology based 100% on the works of Grant Morrison then I would have been fine with the Overvoid being 1-A but with Scott Snyder's interpretation I doubt the Overvoid is still meant to be what Morrison originally wanted the Overvoid to be...

A third piece of evidence supporting that the Overvoid has been retconned during Scott Snyder's era is that cosmic beings such as Chronicler and The Hands can exists in the Overvoid. Here's what the narration says: "Few notice the surge of alien energy that rips through the fabric of space-time, not from the Bleed, but from the Overvoid." These are Wally West's words: "Throughout the Void, beings like Perpetua are tasked with starting Multiverses." According to Morrison's idea of the Overvoid, nothing can survive in the Overvoid because anyone falling into the Overvoid will cease to be, even the idea of that being would be lost and forgotten. We saw this when Mandrakk fell into the Overvoid and was obliterated.

It's a just a retcon. It happens sometimes.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

It doesn’t matter if you guys think it shouldn't be 1-A. As long as there’s evidence for it, it’s fine.

The problem is not that there is evidence to suggest the Overvoid is 1-A or not especially when the mass majority agrees otherwise. You’re making blank claims at this point.

Also who did you ask to participate in these threads before commenting? You’re a previously inactive account that randomly appeared and started trying to influence the course of this massive thread without any staff approval, which is against the rules as other users got removed from the thread for these same reasons. So you along with them, should be removed from this discussion.

This has any relevance? Part of this thread is to discuss why some tiers need reworking. What are you trying to get at by saying this? That people here need to be privileged to participate in a community assessment? You seem to lack any condensing logic because you know that the mass majority will disagree. So I don’t see the point as I didn’t randomly appear. I been lurking on these thread for a while.

Is this your attempt to sway me away from a thread simply because you don’t need more people to disagree with your view? Do my apparent views bother you so much? Perhaps you learn better to use context to suggest half of the things you said so that maybe a little more agree with your view. If not then this is the most useless and nonsensical argument I've seen. So I suggest we talk about why Overvoid deserves the tier rather than this off-topic disengage.

 

[Elizio33]

I think Xearsay at this point just wants the Overvoid to be above everyone.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

• The Overvoid
  • Summary: The Single concept of the Source transcends all other concepts.
    • One non-dual God that Morrison metaphorically refers to as the blank page of the comic.
    • Described as integrating all dual concepts and cannot be contained or halved.
    • The ultimate concept above all others. No other concepts exist in the Source. The Source just is.
  • The concept of time was erased from Nil because of the Overvoid. The Overvoid would then go on to engulf Nil.
  • In a similar manner to Mandrakk, ideas are lost, engulfed, and forgotten in the Overvoid. The concepts of time and space were no different to the Overvoid.
  • Summary: If you were to shove the concepts of time and space at the Overvoid, they would just get lost, engulfed, and forgotten in the Ultimate concept that is the Overvoid.

Do we meet the characteristics for 1-A?

I don't see how this doesn't qualify for at least 1-A.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

If the cosmologies are seperate, does that mean that the void in Vertigo which Lucifer almost got lost in isn't the same as the moniter-mind?

 

[Elizio33]

If the cosmologies are seperate, does that mean that the void in Vertigo which Lucifer almost got lost in isn't the same as the moniter-mind?

Kind of, it's a similar but different interpretation of the Void.

 

[Deagonx]

I think Xearsay at this point just wants the Overvoid to be above everyone.

That's been his sole purpose in participating in this thread, frankly.

 

[Deagonx]

What were the retcons that Snyder and James made?

There aren’t any. They’re just arbitrarily claiming there’s retcons so they can have an excuse to cut out 99% of Morrison’s work.

Emirp, Xearsay is blatantly wrong here. Overvoid's whole backstory of creating the monitors was retconned, among other things.