LuciferX
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Agree. but one level of inf above Low 1-C is still Low 1-C.
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The DC Comics Cosmology Revision Project - Part 3
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We still have to get staff to actually evaluate the proposals along with the arguments that came with them, and then let them come to a consensus.
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2-A Orrery/Hypertime, L1-C Sphere of the Gods, L1-C Monitor Sphere, 1-C Sixth Dimension
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Agree but I don’t think it’s just caps at 2-A for Creation but High 1-B is a stretch. I think Pralaya should be 1-C and Divine Presence High 1-C.
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Heaven is Low 1-C, Pralaya is above that, and then the Divine Presence is above that. So two levels.
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It's a good interpretation but I think Williamson's cosmology can be added to Morrison/Snyder's cosmology. I'll make another thread for this, but with the end of Dark Crisis, we learned that the Great Darkness wasn't really involved as originally suggested at the start of Williamson's take on the DC Cosmology. I started a sandbox regarding this and everything about Williamson's stories seems to suggest that it's an addition to Morrison/Snyder/Tynion IV approach.
Anyway, this is irrelevant for this thread.
LuciferX
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Elizio33 said SoG is 2-C which actually make sense to me. I don't think it transcend orrey infinitely and you might now the reason. Low 1-C for Fifth Dimension and Monitor Sphere are fine. Sixth Dimension would be Low 1-C too imo.
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I think Pralaya should be 1-C and Divine Presence 1-C, possibly High 1-C.
LuciferX
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Is there any proof that Pralaya infinitely transcend Heaven? She can't even interfere with creation directly though.
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She represents Mahapralaya, which is the void from which everything comes including Heaven. It's not the most direct evidence, I agree, but it can always be revised later. We've gotten more into the weeds with all this than is ideal.
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Here's my proposal regarding DeMatteis cosmology:
Material Multiverse: 2-A (There're infinite parallel dimensions with each decision creating a new universe)
Heaven: Low 1-C (Indra's Fourth Heaven contains places that are not places that transcend places and days that are not days that transcend days. Beyond human understanding)
Collective Unconscious: Low 1-C (A metaphysical realm beyond time-space that is considered as a place of the mind and purely of our consciousness)
Pralaya: Low 1-C, possibly 1-C (God's unconscious and Sea of Brahma from which the entirety of Creation, which includes Heavens and the Collective Unconscious, and the Creator itself, an aspect of God, emerged and would eventually return)
The Divine Presence: 1-C, possibly High 1-C or At least 1-C (The overarching presence behind Creation and beyond Pralaya. Dreamed the entirety of Creation which exist on many different levels of reality)
Material Multiverse: 2-A (There're infinite parallel dimensions with each decision creating a new universe)
Heaven: Low 1-C (Indra's Fourth Heaven contains places that are not places that transcend places and days that are not days that transcend days. Beyond human understanding)
Collective Unconscious: Low 1-C (A metaphysical realm beyond time-space that is considered as a place of the mind and purely of our consciousness)
Pralaya: Low 1-C, possibly 1-C (God's unconscious and Sea of Brahma from which the entirety of Creation, which includes Heavens and the Collective Unconscious, and the Creator itself, an aspect of God, emerged and would eventually return)
The Divine Presence: 1-C, possibly High 1-C or At least 1-C (The overarching presence behind Creation and beyond Pralaya. Dreamed the entirety of Creation which exist on many different levels of reality)
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PrinceofPein
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1500 out of Deagon's total messages are addressed to Xearsay, that is funny.
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Him and the Transcendings are/were pretty much the main culprits trying to mangle DC, and both have the habit of carrying on and on even when they've been proven wrong. The end result is a lot of posts lol.
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Overvoid/Source/Presence: 1-C. The Divine Presence: 1-C, possibly High 1-C (discutable). The Presence: Low 1-C.
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Where are you getting possible 1-B vertigo from? 1-B is 12D+
I can see Void getting 1-C due to transcending heaven, mansion of silence which contains infinite universes and is a Low 1-C structure and a portion of the void amounting infinite Low 1-C creations to 0, but not 1-B
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I think Yahweh should be the name of that specific “Presence” because it might confuse people.
God could be the overarching idea but for Metal we can say Source because it’s interchangeable with the Presence.
The Divine Presence is fine.
For Vertigo we can address that “Presence” as Yahweh. However I think Yahweh is not given as much credit despite him technically being equal to the Divine Presence. He should be flat 1-C or at least a possibility of a 1-C.
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I made a mistake earlier every 1-B mention should be a tier down.
LuciferX
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but that's not evidence for qualitative superiority over creation and heaven, only just which everything originated from. both could exist at same scale.
I think it affects the tiering a bit, not really nitpicking.
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It sort of does. Pralaya is the Sea of Brahma from which everything emerge and its process would dissolute all Creation in every level.
The act of duality formed all of Existence as a mere dream of the Divine Presence in which Pralaya is his unconsciousness. If need be it could destroy Creation before Kali Yuga and she shown a lot for just an m-body during Volume One for Justice League Dark.
I say she is on par with the Great Darkness theoretically.
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I hear you. I think these are the sorts of issues that are best ironed out in later CRTs, because there's just too many tierings in the blog to handle them all here. For right now I'm satisfied with the changes Elizio suggested, and then we can fine tune it in the future. This thread has already become pretty messy.
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So we have a major consensus on the tiering for each of the characters.
Snyder/Tynion IV/Grant/Williamson:
Hecate and Upside Downman - 2-B - Scale from their domain which is around 2-C each. They also probably to ascend the Orrery which is 2-C and they have at least an infinity above that.
Mister Mxyzptlk - 2-B, possibly 2-A - Scales past the Orrery. The Bleed revolves around the 5th dimension and is the prominent realm across the entire Multiversal structure. At least an infinity above the Orrery and due to it being the layer before Impossibility(6th Dimension).
Brothers Three - Low 1-C - Scales past the 5th Dimension by quite a margin. Not to mention they are much stronger in the 6th Dimension which is the control room for the Multiverse.
Hands - Low 1-C, possibly 1-C - Scales past all previous beings but only a quantifiable layer above the brothers. They are not infinite in power or energy and need materials from the Source.
Unseen Council - 1-C(baseline) - Beings in the Void in a hierarchy that seems to be the ascended Hands when they reach their final state after they give their life force for their Multiverse. Keep going until the Source/Presence
The Source/The Presence - 1-C - The highest authority in the Greater Omniverse and the top pinnacle of the Unseen Council.
The Overvoid/Light(Aspect of Infinity) - 1-C - Scales to the Source but more so conceptual and less manifest. Equal in power to the Presence.
Godhood Darkseid/Empty Hand - 2-B, likely 2-A - Hands of the Great Darkness. One represents the hand that takes and the other the fist of destruction. However, they scale to a low Multiverse and Empty Hand only gathered the Gentry from the carcass of the Pre-Crisis Multiverse destroyed by the Anti-Monitor.
Pariah - likey 2-A - Much more powerful than Darkseid and Empty Hand as well as the Dark Amry combined. He possessed a fraction of the true Darkness powers. He managed to siphon energies from heroes to cause a chain reaction of Infinite Earth previously before the first Crisis.
Doctor Multiverse - 2-B, likely 2-A - Powerful enough to empower the speedster and to eliminate the Dark Army being faded after beating Pariah and Deathstroke. Scales to Pariah, and in theory a little stronger.
Light Council - ? - Unknown for now but can at least scale to the Orrery, 2-C+
The Great Darkness - 1-C - Scales to the Light but seems weaker in power. However, it's larger and older, in every way equal to the Light.
J.M. DeMatteis:
Aspects of the Creators - ? - Depending on which form the Creator takes. All are just ideas to a greater, truer Creator. Maybe 2-A.
Chaos and Order(Act of Duality) - Low 1-C - The two dualities that burst the Sea of Brahma into the Ocean of Love which act was created by the Divine Smile. Representing all forms of duality and bursting the fire of love into all of Existence.
Pralaya - 1-C - The Sea of Brahma and the endless ocean of nothing to which is God’s unconscious mind. All Creation will return to it because it was the source that emerged it all.
The Divine Presence(Oversoul) - 1-C, possibly High 1-C - The Smile and the one true Creator where the Void is part of it. Beyond Mahapralya and beyond all conventions of time and space as well as everything in Creation. Existence and all part is part of its dream.
Carey/Gaiman/Moore:
Alan Moore doesn't count but it's fun to add him because of his weird perspective that blends well with Black Label titles.
The Parliaments - 2-A, possibly Low 1-C - Beings that are in the fundamental elemental realms across space and time. Scale to an infinite space-time continuum and as a collective can rival some of the most powerful beings.
Lilim - Varies up to 2-C - Some powerful demons spawns of Lilith that can rival the Host of Heaven. Up to Thrones, Dominion, maybe Seraphs.
The Host - Varies up to 2-A - Angels are transcendence of Creation although it primarily the Archangels that usually have this massive upscale.
The Endless - Low 1-C, possibly 1-C - A group of primordial older than the gods and stars. They represent the fundamental truths to the Multiverse and their point of view stretches to all Creations through the Void.
Michael Demiurgos and Lucifer Morningstar - Low 1-C, possibly 1-C - The twin brothers accredited with making the Creation of Yahweh. They scale past the Endless and are absolute within Creation.
The Presence(Yahweh) - 1-C - Above everything in Creation with an infinite degree. Can make and destroy Low 1-C beings without issue.
Night and Time - Low 1-C, possibly 1-C - Parents of the Endless and the two beings that made Creation possible, every version of it.
First Circle - Low 1-C, possibly 1-C - The Council of beings that set rules and boundaries during before Creation in the Void. They scale to the Endless and even they follow their rules. They scale slightly lower than the Archangels who only follow Yahweh’s command.
Jin En Mok - Low 1-C - Flesh Gods formed from whatever they can conjure with their minds. They are older the Hell, Heaven, and Yahweh. They scale to the highest of the high.
Silkman - 2-A, possibly Low 1-C - An eldritch being not formed by Yahweh. Feeds on Creation to not follow natural rules to slow his death.
Gods/Elohim - Varies to 2-A - Gods like Fernis who represent Entropy can rival the Host and destroy parts of a crumbling Silver City.
The Void - 1-C - A fraction of the Void can contain infinite volumes of Creations. Above Low 1-C structure and is infinite and eternal like the Presence without form. Floats with ideas drifting in the mind of God.
Snyder/Tynion IV/Grant/Williamson:
Hecate and Upside Downman - 2-B - Scale from their domain which is around 2-C each. They also probably to ascend the Orrery which is 2-C and they have at least an infinity above that.
Mister Mxyzptlk - 2-B, possibly 2-A - Scales past the Orrery. The Bleed revolves around the 5th dimension and is the prominent realm across the entire Multiversal structure. At least an infinity above the Orrery and due to it being the layer before Impossibility(6th Dimension).
Brothers Three - Low 1-C - Scales past the 5th Dimension by quite a margin. Not to mention they are much stronger in the 6th Dimension which is the control room for the Multiverse.
Hands - Low 1-C, possibly 1-C - Scales past all previous beings but only a quantifiable layer above the brothers. They are not infinite in power or energy and need materials from the Source.
Unseen Council - 1-C(baseline) - Beings in the Void in a hierarchy that seems to be the ascended Hands when they reach their final state after they give their life force for their Multiverse. Keep going until the Source/Presence
The Source/The Presence - 1-C - The highest authority in the Greater Omniverse and the top pinnacle of the Unseen Council.
The Overvoid/Light(Aspect of Infinity) - 1-C - Scales to the Source but more so conceptual and less manifest. Equal in power to the Presence.
Godhood Darkseid/Empty Hand - 2-B, likely 2-A - Hands of the Great Darkness. One represents the hand that takes and the other the fist of destruction. However, they scale to a low Multiverse and Empty Hand only gathered the Gentry from the carcass of the Pre-Crisis Multiverse destroyed by the Anti-Monitor.
Pariah - likey 2-A - Much more powerful than Darkseid and Empty Hand as well as the Dark Amry combined. He possessed a fraction of the true Darkness powers. He managed to siphon energies from heroes to cause a chain reaction of Infinite Earth previously before the first Crisis.
Doctor Multiverse - 2-B, likely 2-A - Powerful enough to empower the speedster and to eliminate the Dark Army being faded after beating Pariah and Deathstroke. Scales to Pariah, and in theory a little stronger.
Light Council - ? - Unknown for now but can at least scale to the Orrery, 2-C+
The Great Darkness - 1-C - Scales to the Light but seems weaker in power. However, it's larger and older, in every way equal to the Light.
J.M. DeMatteis:
Aspects of the Creators - ? - Depending on which form the Creator takes. All are just ideas to a greater, truer Creator. Maybe 2-A.
Chaos and Order(Act of Duality) - Low 1-C - The two dualities that burst the Sea of Brahma into the Ocean of Love which act was created by the Divine Smile. Representing all forms of duality and bursting the fire of love into all of Existence.
Pralaya - 1-C - The Sea of Brahma and the endless ocean of nothing to which is God’s unconscious mind. All Creation will return to it because it was the source that emerged it all.
The Divine Presence(Oversoul) - 1-C, possibly High 1-C - The Smile and the one true Creator where the Void is part of it. Beyond Mahapralya and beyond all conventions of time and space as well as everything in Creation. Existence and all part is part of its dream.
Carey/Gaiman/Moore:
Alan Moore doesn't count but it's fun to add him because of his weird perspective that blends well with Black Label titles.
The Parliaments - 2-A, possibly Low 1-C - Beings that are in the fundamental elemental realms across space and time. Scale to an infinite space-time continuum and as a collective can rival some of the most powerful beings.
Lilim - Varies up to 2-C - Some powerful demons spawns of Lilith that can rival the Host of Heaven. Up to Thrones, Dominion, maybe Seraphs.
The Host - Varies up to 2-A - Angels are transcendence of Creation although it primarily the Archangels that usually have this massive upscale.
The Endless - Low 1-C, possibly 1-C - A group of primordial older than the gods and stars. They represent the fundamental truths to the Multiverse and their point of view stretches to all Creations through the Void.
Michael Demiurgos and Lucifer Morningstar - Low 1-C, possibly 1-C - The twin brothers accredited with making the Creation of Yahweh. They scale past the Endless and are absolute within Creation.
The Presence(Yahweh) - 1-C - Above everything in Creation with an infinite degree. Can make and destroy Low 1-C beings without issue.
Night and Time - Low 1-C, possibly 1-C - Parents of the Endless and the two beings that made Creation possible, every version of it.
First Circle - Low 1-C, possibly 1-C - The Council of beings that set rules and boundaries during before Creation in the Void. They scale to the Endless and even they follow their rules. They scale slightly lower than the Archangels who only follow Yahweh’s command.
Jin En Mok - Low 1-C - Flesh Gods formed from whatever they can conjure with their minds. They are older the Hell, Heaven, and Yahweh. They scale to the highest of the high.
Silkman - 2-A, possibly Low 1-C - An eldritch being not formed by Yahweh. Feeds on Creation to not follow natural rules to slow his death.
Gods/Elohim - Varies to 2-A - Gods like Fernis who represent Entropy can rival the Host and destroy parts of a crumbling Silver City.
The Void - 1-C - A fraction of the Void can contain infinite volumes of Creations. Above Low 1-C structure and is infinite and eternal like the Presence without form. Floats with ideas drifting in the mind of God.
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Good scaling but the addition of Joshua Williamson's work in Grant Morrison and Scott Snyder's approach to DC Cosmology has not yet been accepted. It's an idea i suggested and i'm currently working on a sandbox about it.
Hecate and the Upside-Down Man shouldn't be 2-B. At least 2-C is fine for them, they scale to their realms which are above the Sphere of the Gods but are not qualitatively superior to have an extra degree of infinity.
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The reason i suggested Low 1-C, possibly 1-C for Pralaya and 1-C, possibly High 1-C for The Divine Presence is because they are beyond the Act of Duality (Order and Chaos) which caused the birth of the Multiverse which itself exists on many different levels of reality.
Although there is not so much evidence to support these levels of reality being infinitely transcendent, realms like Heavens transcends places and days and are beyond human understanding and the Collective Unconscious is beyond space-time.
Although Pralaya may or not qualify for an extra infinity above the Act of Duality and the multiverse, she is the Sea of Brahma from which all of these things emerged and would return hence the Low 1-C, possibly 1-C Tier.
Although there is not so much evidence to support these levels of reality being infinitely transcendent, realms like Heavens transcends places and days and are beyond human understanding and the Collective Unconscious is beyond space-time.
Although Pralaya may or not qualify for an extra infinity above the Act of Duality and the multiverse, she is the Sea of Brahma from which all of these things emerged and would return hence the Low 1-C, possibly 1-C Tier.
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Deleted member 2530
Guest
I am not sure why Night and Time scale to all version of it Creation. Gaiman has used universes to denote the plurality of a universe rather than as some form of multiple Creations. Feels like it is a case of taking what "Universe" may represent when talking in some cases to use as a blanket term. Father Time is said to form at the same time as "the Beginning" in Overture and is formed either along with or after Creation in Gaiman stories.
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Where does the Force Barrier scale?
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I don't think we have it scaled.
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Oof
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How Gaiman wrote that was to suggest Creation and every version that was made possible. The usage of the word Universes is the same as saying Creations because then was only Night when every event horizon was just darkness.
It's not saying each Universes, it's saying the Universes and every possible version of it. You can replace Universes with Creation and it wouldn't change the meaning of the text given we see different Dreams from different “Universes.”
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Looks good.
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Unfortunately the inclusion of all the Williamson stuff makes it unusable as that cosmology isn't a part of this project for the time being. Also Moore isn't included in Gaiman/Carey.
I think we should implement Elizio's updated recommendations, so that we can move on from this and create more focused revisions for specific things.
I think we should implement Elizio's updated recommendations, so that we can move on from this and create more focused revisions for specific things.
This
and this
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What about Vertigo Tier?
Yahweh Creation: 2-A (Universe in Vertigo refers to the totality of existence which contains infinite timelines)
Heaven and Hell: Low 1-C (Aren't part of the created order of things and predates and transcends creation)
The Endless: Low 1-C, possibly 1-C (Are the primordial truths of Yahweh's Creation in all its aspects, including all other versions of Creation that precede and follow Yahweh's)
Mother Night and Father Time: Low 1-C, possibly 1-C (Their interplay is what made all version of Creation possible, and they are the source of the reality changing power of dreams which can retroactively change Creation and creates gods, including Yahweh)
Mansions of Silence: Low 1-C (Exists far, far beyond Heaven and the reach of Death of the Endless)
Yahweh: Low 1-C, possibly 1-C (Created the Archangels and can easily destroy them. Defined every variable, the physical rules with his own will. Manipulated the Void)
The Void: 1-C (The infinite and eternal Void beyond time and space)
Yahweh Creation: 2-A (Universe in Vertigo refers to the totality of existence which contains infinite timelines)
Heaven and Hell: Low 1-C (Aren't part of the created order of things and predates and transcends creation)
The Endless: Low 1-C, possibly 1-C (Are the primordial truths of Yahweh's Creation in all its aspects, including all other versions of Creation that precede and follow Yahweh's)
Mother Night and Father Time: Low 1-C, possibly 1-C (Their interplay is what made all version of Creation possible, and they are the source of the reality changing power of dreams which can retroactively change Creation and creates gods, including Yahweh)
Mansions of Silence: Low 1-C (Exists far, far beyond Heaven and the reach of Death of the Endless)
Yahweh: Low 1-C, possibly 1-C (Created the Archangels and can easily destroy them. Defined every variable, the physical rules with his own will. Manipulated the Void)
The Void: 1-C (The infinite and eternal Void beyond time and space)
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The Void is Yahweh or part of him when he doesn't take shape. #75 clarified it many times. Not to mention in Overture the mind of God is the Void. Both are Infinite and Eternal not to mention he can make Archangels at will. His definitely 1-C.
The rest seems fine.
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That looks fine.
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Noted
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I'm quite unsure how much stronger the Source is compared to the Hands. However, given the fact it spawned a possible infinite would make Hands Low 1-C because there not infinitely stronger than 6D beings. So if we scale with that the Source is a definite 1-C. The Overvoid could be 1-C as well although how it's compared to the Source is a bit confusing. If they are the same there both 1-C, if not I say the Overvoid might be slightly lower.
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They're the same in the Morrison/Snyder cosmology, according to the Multiversity Map and Morrison's statements.
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