The DC Comics Cosmology Revision Project - Part 3

[Antvasima]

That seems fine then. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Elizio33]

Alright then

 

[Robo432343]

shouldn't the vertigo void be 1-C? It transcends the mansion of silence which is low 1-c and contains infinite universes
there are infinite low 1-c creations in the void and a portion of the void amounts it to 0

 

[LuciferX]

Why Divine Presence is High 1-B? Reasoning for infinite layered cosmology was debunked above.

 

[Deagonx]

Why Divine Presence is High 1-B? Reasoning for infinite layered cosmology was debunked above.

The infinite layered was for 1-A.

 

[Xearsay]

What is the evidence of this? The fact that the Monitor Sphere formed around the flaw doesn't mean that Overvoid was unaffected or that an infinite amount can be added arbitrarily. I don't see how this is any different from Vertigo.

Yes the Overvoid was unaffected because the Overvoid remained completely transcendent to the Multiverse even with the addition of the Monitor Sphere. So unless you have proof that Monitor Mind was = in scale to the Monitor Sphere after it was added to the Multiverse, you can throw this argument away.

Also the difference was already broken down to you.

Vertigo Void: Is the canvas which contains and completely transcends a tier 2 Multiverse, along with any additional tier 2 Multiverses that can be added. This is low 1-C.

Monitor Mind: Is the canvas which contains, completely transcends, and exist independent of a tier 1 Multiverse along with any additional layers that can be added to it. According to FAQ, this is 1-A.

"With no precedent for the concept "story," No understanding of the damage "story" might do to an immense awareness without limits or definition... Monitor has zero defenses."

It's patently obvious that Monitor is not unaffected by story. Further in Multiversity

"Monitor-Mind, in shock from the schism, acts to contain the flaw. To bottle the flaw and pretend its spread."

Saying “it’s obvious” is not an argument. Monitor Mind was never literally harmed by the stories that exists within it. Monitor Mind simply had no understanding of the stories within itself and was annoyed by their existence, seeing the DC Multiverse as a flaw or imperfection within itself. Hence why it created the Monitors to study and oversee it.

 

[Robo432343]

Yes the Overvoid was unaffected because the Overvoid remained completely transcendent to the Multiverse even with the addition of the Monitor Sphere. So unless you have proof that Monitor Mind was = in scale to the Monitor Sphere after it was added to the Multiverse, you can throw this argument away.

still doesn't mean up to infinite dimensions can fill it
also vertigo literally has the same thing.

Also the difference was already broken down to you.

Vertigo Void: Is the canvas which contains and completely transcends a tier 2 Multiverse, along with any additional tier 2 Multiverses that can be added. This is low 1-C.

No. Vertigo void doesn't transcend a tier 2 multiverse. it transcends infinite low 1-C creations, mansion of silence, heaven etc which are low 1-C structures

Monitor Mind: Is the canvas which contains, completely transcends, and exist independent of a tier 1 Multiverse along with any additional layers that can be added to it. According to FAQ, this is 1-A.

No? thats 1 level of transcendence

 

[Xearsay]

if monitor sphere was infinite dimensional then this would've been fine

still doesn't mean up to infinite dimensions can fill it
also vertigo literally has the same thing.

You don’t need a cosmology with infinite dimensions to be 1-A. You just need to be prove that an entity or structure will remain completely transcendent to any amount of dimensions/layers by virtue of its transcendence being independent of additional layers.

And no Vertigo Void does not have the same thing as it’s only completely transcendent to any amount of Multiverses that can be added.

No. Vertigo void doesn't transcend a tier 2 multiverse. it transcends infinite low 1-C creations, mansion of silence, heaven etc which are low 1-C structures

Heaven isn’t low 1-C. I already proved that pages ago.

No? thats 1 level of transcendence

Not according to FAQ.

- “For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted.”

 

[Robo432343]

You don’t need a cosmology with infinite dimensions to be 1-A. You just need to be prove that an entity or structure will remain completely transcendent to any amount of dimensions/layers by virtue of its transcendence being independent of additional layers.

"you need evidence that up to infinite dimensions could be added and the character would still be superior. Basically: If you have no infinite hierarchy, you can still get 1-A if you proof that your character could be above an infinite hierarchy if there were one."
In this case, overvoid is just 1 level above.

And no Vertigo Void does not have the same thing as it’s only completely transcendent to any amount of Multiverses that can be added.


Heaven isn’t low 1-C. I already proved that pages ago.

and we debunked that ages ago
barely anyone agrees with you in that topic

Not according to FAQ.

- “For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted.”

Cool. Vertigo has this too.

 

[Xearsay]

"you need evidence that up to infinite dimensions could be added and the character would still be superior. Basically: If you have no infinite hierarchy, you can still get 1-A if you proof that your character could be above an infinite hierarchy if there were one."

I agree with this statement. Hence why you’re claim that the Monitor Sphere needs to be infinite dimensional is wrong.

and we debunked that ages ago
barely anyone agrees with you in that topic

Literally no you didn’t. Your only attempt was to blatantly editorialize the text within a scan to try and act like Heaven had some qualitative superiority that it doesn’t.

Cool. Vertigo has this too.

No it doesn’t. Nowhere do we see that superior layers/dimensions can be added to the Presence Multiverse with the Void remaining completely transcendent.

 

[Xearsay]

Also, the fact that you guys keep complaining about the Vertigo Void being downgraded in a conversation about the Overvoid makes it clear to me that you guys aren’t doing this out of actual honesty and desire to find accurate ratings for the verse. Instead, you guys are trying to turn this thread into a competition to see who can downgrade whichever cosmology harder to spite the other person. Which is dishonest and childish.

 

[Robo432343]

I agree with this statement. Hence why you’re claim that the Monitor Sphere needs to be infinite dimensional is wrong.

I said you need proof that up to infinite dimensions can fill the overvoid, we only see the monitor sphere adding to it which is just 1 level of transcendence.

Literally no you didn’t. Your only attempt was to blatantly editorialize the text within a scan to try and act like Heaven had some qualitative superiority.

I didn't really editorialize anything but you can go back and debate about heaven not being low 1-c. Im not wasting my time going back and forth with you again
barely anyone will agree with you anyway

No it doesn’t. Literally nowhere do we see that superior layers can be added to the Presence Multiverse with the Void remaining completely transcendent.

we do actually, you can remove/add spaces and the void will remain unaffected. These are literally in the cosmology blog.

 

[Robo432343]

Also, the fact that you guys keep complaining about the Vertigo Void being downgraded in a conversation about the Overvoid makes it clear to me that you guys aren’t doing this out of actual honesty and desire to find accurate ratings for the verse. Instead, this entire thread has literally been turned into a competition to see who can downgrade whichever cosmology harder to spite the other person.

Not really, you just think this way since people disagree with your takes

 

[LuciferX]

The infinite layered was for 1-A.

So Pralaya is Low 1-A now?

 

[Xearsay]

I said you need proof that up to infinite dimensions can fill the overvoid, we only see the monitor sphere adding to it which is just 1 level of transcendence.

No you said, “if the Monitor Sphere was infinite dimensional then this would’ve been fine.” Which is completely wrong because the Monitor Sphere doesn’t need to be infinite dimensional and we don’t need to see infinite dimensions added to the Multiverse for the Overvoid to be 1-A. We just need to see that dimensions/layers can be added, and that Monitor Mind will remain completely transcendent.

I didn't really editorialize anything but you can go back and debate about heaven not being low 1-c. Im not wasting my time going back and forth with you again
barely anyone will agree with you anyway

Yes you did alter the text. You tried to claim the universe was a child’s toy to the Silver City, when the scan actually claimed that the beneath the Silver City, the universe glistens like a child’s toy.

we do actually, you can remove/add spaces and the void will remain unaffected. These are literally in the cosmology blog.

Add or remove spaces to the Presences Multiverse? Also, do you have proof that these spaces function as qualitatively superior dimensions/layers?

 

[Robo432343]

No you said, “if the Monitor Sphere was infinite dimensional then this would’ve been fine.” Which is completely wrong because the Monitor Sphere doesn’t need to be infinite dimensional for the Overvoid to be 1-A.

yeah i changed that thinking....you can clearly see it in the thread.
Just like how the creations dont need to be infinite dimensional for the void to be 1-A

Yes you did alter the text. You tried to claim the universe was a child’s toy to the Silver City, when the scan actually claimed that the beneath the Silver City, the universe glistens like a child’s toy.

i dont even need to say anything here because either way thats qualitative superiority lmfao. you're helping me here.

Do you have proof that these spaces function as qualitatively superior dimensions/layers.

Doesn't need to according to your faq

 

[Xearsay]

yeah i changed that thinking....you can clearly see it in the thread.
Just like how the creations dont need to be infinite dimensional for the void to be 1-A

You changed your way of thinking in the span of two comments? So you admit that you were wrong?

i dont even need to say anything here because either way thats qualitative superiority lmfao. you're helping me here.

No it isn’t. A box can be located beneath me and appear to glisten or glitter like a child’s toy. Does that mean I’m qualitatively superior to the box? No. Something appearing as glittery has nothing to do with qualitatively superiority.

Doesn't need to according to your faq

Yes they do.

FAQ - “A good way to accomplish this would be to show that whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensions present on the setting.”

 

[Elizio33]

So Pralaya is Low 1-A now?

Pralaya was rating to Low 1-A because she's the void from which the infinite-layered creation emerged and would return. The Divine Presence/The Smile was originally rated 1-A because it's beyond Pralaya and it dreams the entirety of the infinite-layered creation.

 

[Robo432343]

You changed your way of thinking in the span of two comments? So you admit that you were wrong?

Nothing wrong with that. ik you dont need to have infinite dimensions to be 1-A, but in your case, overvoid is just 1 lvl of transcendence

No it isn’t. A box can be located beneath me and appear to glisten or glitter like a child’s toy. Does that mean I’m qualitatively superior to the box? No. Something appearing as glittery has nothing to do with qualitatively superiority.

This comparison is garbage. Im talking about entire universes here while your talking about a fking box. Let me use your analogy but with different things. A universe can be located beneath another structure above it and glitters like a childs toy. Does that mean the structure is qualitatively superior to that universe? Yes.

FAQ - “A good way to accomplish this would be to show that whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensionspresent on the setting.”

Your talking about different things. you literally asked, "do you have proof that these spaces function as qualitatively superior"
Elaine has to push the absence of space to fill the void and the void would remain unaffected due to transcending it completely

 

[Elizio33]

Why Divine Presence is High 1-B? Reasoning for infinite layered cosmology was debunked above.

I think that The Divine Presence/The Smile should be Low 1-A. Pralaya is the Void where The Creator and the Infinite-Layered Creation emerged and would return. The Creator was said by DeMatteis to be an aspect of God and God/The Divine Presence/The Smile is beyond Pralaya hence its other name: The Void beyond all Voids. So, Low 1-A seems more accurate than High 1-B.

 

[Xearsay]

Nothing wrong with that. ik you dont need to have infinite dimensions to be 1-A, but in your case, overvoid is just 1 lvl of transcendence

Well since you now disagree with your old Monitor Sphere must be infinite dimensional reason, what’s your new reason for it being just 1 lvl of transcendence?

This comparison is garbage. Im talking about entire universes here while you’re talking about a fking box. Let me use your analogy but with different things. A universe can be located beneath another structure above it and glitters like a childs toy. Does that mean the structure is qualitatively superior to that universe? Yes.

That’s because whether it’s a universe or a box doesn’t matter. Something appearing glistening and glittering like a toy, doesn’t put you infinitely beyond such a thing. As evident from the fact that I can see a box the same way and still not be transcendent to it.

Your talking about different things. you literally asked, "do you have proof that these spaces function as qualitatively superior"
Elaine has to push the absence of space to fill the void and the void would remain unaffected due to transcending it completely

Yes I asked whether these spaces you mentioned were qualitatively superior dimensions/layers, because if they’re not then the Vertigo Void doesn’t match the example within the FAQ like you claimed.

Also Elaine pushed the absence of space to create a new Multiverse within the Void, not to add layers/dimensions to the Multiverse with qualitative superiority. If she added a layer or layers to the Multiverse by pushing the absence of space then you’d have an actual argument for 1-A Void.

 

[Robo432343]

Well since you now disagree with your old Monitor Sphere must be infinite dimensional reason, what’s your new reason for it being just 1 lvl of transcendence?

Because the wiki assumes the lowball and there is no way in hell im assuming it can reach infinite layers when we only seen 1 lvl of transcendence

That’s because whether it’s a universe or a box doesn’t matter

It does matter actually. You think a ******* box is a sufficient comparison to a universe

. Something appearing glistening and glittering like a toy, doesn’t put you infinitely beyond such a thing. As evident from the fact that I can see a box the same way and still not be transcendent to it.

You do realize beyond baseline 2-A is Low 1-C right? You don't have to be infinitely above it lmfao

https://vsbattles.com/threads/above-2-a-range-and-scaling.147888/#post-5399781

Yes I asked whether these spaces you mentioned were qualitatively superior dimensions/layers, because if they’re not then the Vertigo Void doesn’t match the example within the FAQ like you claimed.

Doesn't have to be according to the FAQ
You can add/remove spaces in the void and it would remain unaffected due to transcending it entirely

Also Elaine pushed the absence of space to create a new Multiverse within the Void

yeah and the void remained unaffected due to transcending it entirely

, not to add layers/dimensions to the Multiverse with qualitative superiority. If she added a layer or layers to the Multiverse by pushing the absence of space then you’d have an actual argument for 1-A Void.

? In your case, the multiverse grew inside the monitor mind and it remained unaffected, and transcended, its not talking about dimensions/layers either

 

[LuciferX]

I think that The Divine Presence/The Smile should be Low 1-A. Pralaya is the Void where The Creator and the Infinite-Layered Creation emerged and would return. The Creator was said by DeMatteis to be an aspect of God and God/The Divine Presence/The Smile is beyond Pralaya hence its other name: The Void beyond all Voids. So, Low 1-A seems more accurate than High 1-B.

But Creation is 2-A, I already addressed about it above btw.

 

[Robo432343]

But Creation is 2-A,

yo???
oh i thought ur talking about the entire dematteis cosmology

 

[LuciferX]

yo???
oh i thought ur talking about the entire dematteis cosmology

Nah just High 1-B rating. basically same tho.

 

[Antvasima]

@Deagonx @Elizio33 @Firestorm808 @Eficiente @PrinceofPein @Planck69 @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr._Bambu

I would greatly appreciate if you try to keep this thread on track and to make sure that it avoids any excessive derailing until I come back from my vacation.

For the record, I think that the suggestions so far from Deagonx and Elizio33 seem good, and have great faith in them in figuring out sensible solutions regarding these topics.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Currently following, and yes. Watchful eye is important here.

 

[Deagonx]

You just need to be prove that an entity or structure will remain completely transcendent to any amount of dimensions/layers by virtue of its transcendence being independent of additional layers.

And no Vertigo Void does not have the same thing as it’s only completely transcendent to any amount of Multiverses that can be added.

I haven't seen any indication of the claim you've made about Overvoid. In fact, based on the evidence, it seems rather clear that the Sixth Dimension and the Overvoid are on the same level of infinity. But the fact that the Monitor Sphere formed around the Multiverse doesn't prove you can add n transcending layers and the Overvoid won't be affected. You just haven't given any proof of that.

- “For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted.”

This is also true of Vertigo.

Heaven isn’t low 1-C. I already proved that pages ago.

You certainly claimed it. Proved? No, I don't think so at all.

Also, the fact that you guys keep complaining about the Vertigo Void being downgraded in a conversation about the Overvoid makes it clear to me that you guys aren’t doing this out of actual honesty and desire to find accurate ratings for the verse. Instead, you guys are trying to turn this thread into a competition to see who can downgrade whichever cosmology harder to spite the other person. Which is dishonest and childish.

The irony is palpable. Your sole purpose here is to try and get Vertigo and DeMatteis below Morrison.

We are pointing out the double standard. For some arbitrary reason you are treating the Vertigo Void and the Overvoid -- which are both absolutely background canvases to infinite creations -- completely differently by claiming that the Overvoid can have infinite layers added and be unaffected even though there's no proof of this.

 

[Robo432343]

I haven't seen any indication of the claim you've made about Overvoid. In fact, based on the evidence, it seems rather clear that the Sixth Dimension and the Overvoid are on the same level of infinity. But the fact that the Monitor Sphere formed around the Multiverse doesn't prove you can add n transcending layers and the Overvoid won't be affected. You just haven't given any proof of that.


This is also true of Vertigo.

You certainly claimed it. Proved? No, I don't think so at all.


The irony is palpable. Your sole purpose here is to try and get Vertigo and DeMatteis below Morrison.

We are pointing out the double standard. For some arbitrary reason you are treating the Vertigo Void and the Overvoid -- which are both absolutely background canvases to infinite creations -- completely differently by claiming that the Overvoid can have infinite layers added and be unaffected even though there's no proof of this.

genuinely don't know what xearsay is doing but apparently this is his proof of the overvoid being 1-A based on faq

his quote
"the Multiverse grew inside of Monitor Mind the Monitor Sphere was added to it, and Monitor Mind remained completely transcendent to it. Proving that Monitor Mind is unaffected by the growing of additional layering to the Multiverse. Meaning even if the Multiverse grew an additional 3, 4, 5, or an infinite amount of layers Monitor Mind would remain transcendent to all of them."

 

[Deagonx]

genuinely don't know what xearsay is doing but apparently this is his proof of the overvoid being 1-A based on faq

his quote
"the Multiverse grew inside of Monitor Mind the Monitor Sphere was added to it, and Monitor Mind remained completely transcendent to it. Proving that Monitor Mind is unaffected by the growing of additional layering to the Multiverse. Meaning even if the Multiverse grew an additional 3, 4, 5, or an infinite amount of layers Monitor Mind would remain transcendent to all of them."

Yeah that just reads like a pretty blatant NLF.

 

[Xearsay]

I haven't seen any indication of the claim you've made about Overvoid. In fact, based on the evidence, it seems rather clear that the Sixth Dimension and the Overvoid are on the same level of infinity. But the fact that the Monitor Sphere formed around the Multiverse doesn't prove you can add n transcending layers and the Overvoid won't be affected. You just haven't given any proof of that.

Once again this isn’t the place for restructuring the cosmology. If you think the Overvoid stands on the same level as a realm within the Multiverse, you should have argued that in part 2 of the DC cosmology revision project.

Yes it does prove such a thing, as according to FAQ, the Overvoid functioning as a canvas that is independent of and completely transcendent to any amount of dimensions/layers can be inserted is 1-A. If you have a problem with this you can make a separate control thread about it.

This is also true of Vertigo.

Nope. The Vertigo Void simply completely transcends any amount of tier 2 Multiverses that can be added. Which is low 1-C.

You certainly claimed it. Proved? No, I don't think so at all.

Whether you want to admit or not doesn’t matter. The Silver City has absolutely no evidence supporting it being qualitatively superior to the universe. From the Silver City’s vantage point the universe simply just appears to be covered in glitter, which is not the same as something being infinitesimal or seen as fiction, which would be required for qualitative superiority.

The irony is palpable. Your sole purpose here is to try and get Vertigo and DeMatteis below Morrison.

I’m simply here to try and evaluate whether these tiers are accurate or not. You guys gave Vertigo inaccurate tiers so I’m simply just pointing it out.

 

[Deagonx]

Okay. Well at this point Xear is just repeating his claims without providing actual evidence or engaging with any of the counter arguments or logical problems.

I still don't see any justification for the claim that one could add infinite transcendent layers and the Overvoid would be unaffected, and I fail to see how it's any different from the Vertigo Void.

If those claims get wide staff agreement so be it, but I'm entirely unconvinced and I think his refusal to provide any meaningful discussion aside from repeating himself is fairly telling.

 

[Elizio33]

I think this whole debate about whether the Overvoid is 1-A or not is concluded. There is no longer any need to debate.

 

[Xearsay]

I provided evidence a while ago. I’m just simply not putting up with you continuously attempting to try and start an argument over the structure of the cosmology when we’re past that in the revision phase, and your attempts to rehash a debate about Vertigos tier, which I already proved pages ago was being exaggerated.

I agree with Elizio. There’s no need to keep debating this topic. I’ll wait for input from mods, preferably Ultima.

 

[Deagonx]

You provided a scan that the Monitor Sphere formed. Somehow this equates to "the overvoid can have infinite layers added." You haven't provided evidence of the latter, just the Monitor Sphere forming.

And you claiming you "proved" it is dishonest. You were the only person who thought so, and many disagreed with you. Your argument for why it wasn't transcendent was also nonsensical. You said the fact that creation could be visibly seen from Heaven disproved transcendence. So then you must also not think that the Monitor Sphere is transcendent to the multiverse or Limbo, since both can be seen from Nil.

 

[Xearsay]

It was more than that. I provided scans that support Monitor Mind functioning as the canvas for the growing Multiverse where stuff like the Monitor Sphere can be inserted into Monitor Mind as a higher layer to the Multiverse, with even the very concept of story which conceptualizes the Multiverse and its hierarchy, all being completely transcended by the infinite and eternal oneness where all contradictions are resolved to unity that is Monitor Mind.

Also, I was not the only one who thought the Silver City wasn’t low 1-C, and my main argument for why it wasn’t qualitatively superior was that the evidence used to support the Silver City’s tier simply didn’t hold up. And for a qualitative superiority, it’s not so much that the universe can’t be seen, but that the Silver City needs to be treated as a higher infinity to the universe or the universe needs to be perceived as fiction, something along those lines. The Silver City has no evidence for either. Therefore it’s not low1-C.

 

[Deagonx]

It was more than that. I provided scans that support Monitor Mind functioning as the canvas for the growing Multiverse where stuff like the Monitor Sphere can be inserted into Monitor Mind as a higher layer to the Multiverse, with even the very concept of story which conceptualizes the Multiverse and its hierarchy, all being completely transcended by the infinite and eternal oneness where all contradictions are resolved to unity that is Monitor Mind.

None of that justifies your claim that infinite layers could be added without affecting the multiverse. So, no, you didn't provide more than that. Irrelevant word-salad that doesn't affect the point of contention is not "more." And as was proven earlier, story can damage the Overvoid and the Overvoid considered itself defenseless against story, so the Overvoid does not transcend it.

And for a qualitative superiority, it’s not so much that the universe can’t be seen, but that the Silver City needs to be treated as a higher infinity to the universe or the universe needs to be perceived as fiction, something along those lines. The Silver City has no evidence for either. Therefore it’s not low1-C.

You're backpedaling. Your argument was this:

The fact that they can see galaxies and nebulae from the Silver City proves that it isn’t qualitatively superior to the universe.

You literally argued that the ability to see galaxies disproves qualitative superiority.

And besides, per your own objections, the basic fact of whether or not the Silver City is a higher infinity is a Part 2 subject.

 

[Robo432343]

Also, I was not the only one who thought the Silver City wasn’t low 1-C, and my main argument for why it wasn’t qualitatively superior was that the evidence used to support the Silver City’s tier simply didn’t hold up. And for a qualitative superiority, it’s not so much that the universe can’t be seen, but that the Silver City needs to be treated as a higher infinity to the universe or the universe needs to be perceived as fiction, something along those lines. The Silver City has no evidence for either. Therefore it’s not low1-C.

This is funny. There are other ways to get qualitative superiority without reality fictional transcendence. Above baseline 2-A is Low 1-C, you don't need to be infinitely bigger. Hell, that contradicts what qualitative superiority says.

"The reason it is called qualitative superiority is that, instead of quantitative terms such as being 2 times, 100 times or even infinite times more powerful or greater, this type of superiority is typically justified by the nature of the superiority. The most standard case is dimensionality, where a difference in the quality that is dimensionality, implies the necessary quantitative difference."

https://vsbattles.com/threads/bring-back-old-2a-above-baseline-standard.150332/

 

[ShionAH]

Extremely out of topic but what will Lucifer,CAS and TDK be after these?

 

[Deagonx]

Extremely out of topic but what will Lucifer,CAS and TDK be after these?

None of that has been decided yet. Please don't clutter up the thread with stuff like this.