ShionAH
He/Him- 16,720
- 4,999
Alright
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
The DC Comics Cosmology Revision Project - Part 3
- Status
- 1,298
- 1,041
It does as according to FAQ. Your only previous counter response was to call it a no limits fallacy. And if you think the FAQ presents a no limits fallacy then you should go ahead and make a control thread about it instead of complaining here.
Also way to completely miss the point of Final Crisis. When the scan talks about Monitor Mind having no understanding of the “damage” story might do, it’s not describing physical harm, but rather its a metaphor for how Monitor Mind’s image as this perfect white space is sullied by the infinitesimal but yet significant flaw within itself.
I’m not backpedaling. The whole Silver City being able to see galaxies thing, was a completely separate argument from my main one. A separate argument that you’re trying to focus on because you can’t actually counter my main one being that the Silver City has no justification for being a higher infinity to the universe.
No it’s not, as whether the Silver City is a higher infinity is a conversation that relates to its tier.
Last edited:
- 1,298
- 1,041
Yes there are other ways, I never said reality fiction transcendence was the only way. I simply said that you need to prove that the Silver City is a higher level of infinity to a tier 2 structure. Which aligns with what’s said in the tiering system page.
Low 1-C - Characters or objects that can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)
- 7,832
- 14,849
??? My objection is that you haven't proved it. Not that it wouldn't be 1-A.
No. I am saying that the claim you're making, based solely on the evidence you provided, is an NLF because it doesn't adequately prove your theory, you're just assuming it from extremely limited information. Just cause 1 layer was potentially added doesn't mean infinite layers can be. You haven't provided any evidence of that.
So you admit this argument was fallacious? Because you made a whole spectacle of it without conceding a few pages ago.
Okay, so the same is true of the overvoid. Great.
Then in that case, the evidence strongly supports that the Overvoid isn't a higher infinity to the Sixth Dimension.
Last edited:
- 11,695
- 4,915
yeah other ways like seeing the universe as like child's toy, multicolored jewels etc
Silver city is qualitatively superior to a baseline 2-A structure, not Low 2-C lmfao
you keep saying that it needs to be infinitely greater when it doesn't, there just needs to be some form of qualitative superiority
i even asked staff about this
Last edited:
- 1,298
- 1,041
That’s not the argument. The argument is that the Monitor Mind completely transcends the conceptualization of the Multiverse and the size of its hierarchy. The Monitor Sphere being added to the hierarchy due to the spread of story, was brought up to simply prove that story conceptualizes the Multiverse’s hierarchy’s size.
No. I just don’t get why you’re focusing on a side argument over the main one that you never disproved.
You’re right. It’s more than just a single higher infinity to the sixth dimension.
They don’t see the universe like a child’s toy or multicolored jewels. They see the universe as glistening(covered in glitter) like a child’s toy. This difference was broken down for you pages ago, and yet you’re still lying about what’s said in the scan.
No. It. Isn’t. As you have given no evidence to support the Silver City is a higher infinity to the universe which is what the tier low 1-C requires.
- 11,695
- 4,915
Either ******* way it is qualitative superiority and pretty much means the same fking thing
classic rat argument
Lmfao
To qualify for Low 1-C, the spaces correspond to 1,2 higher levels of infinity greater than a Low 2-C structure
the main universe is already fking 2-A and like i said earlier, a structure beyond baseline 2-A is low 1-C
There are already 2 scans to support this which you keep failing to debunk
- 7,832
- 14,849
Being a higher level of infinity is entirely plausible, though there's very good counter evidence. If your claim is that it could transcend infinite layers, then -- once again -- where is the evidence?
Okay, so then Nil is not transcendent to the multiverse?
The evidence strongly suggests they are on the same level. You've, however, provided no evidence of infinite aleph transcendence of the Overvoid
Strong disagree. The evidence provided is extremely strong for a transcendent silver city.
Last edited:
- 18,393
- 14,319
You need to read FAQ once again unless you are arguing or questioning its validity, but that's a seperate topic and should be discussed somewhere else.
- 1,298
- 1,041
Saying the universe is covered in glitter like a toy, is not the same as saying the universe is a toy or that it’s literally multicolored jewels. This was explained to you 2 pages ago.
I already showcased that the scans you’re referring to don’t support the Silver City being a higher infinity pages ago.
The evidence is partially in the scans that were already posted. Your only counter argument against them was to claim that Monitor Mind doesn’t transcend story, which I already proved comes from your misinterpretation of the text of Final Crisis.
Whether Nil is or is not transcendent to the Multiverse has nothing to do with the Silver City not being a higher level of infinity.
What evidence? You haven’t posted any this whole thread.
Nope. The only reasons you previously brought up was an editorialization of text from one of the scans and stuff that goes against FAQ.
Deagonx - “The other scan describes creation as "far below" Heaven and describes it as a "child's toy." It goes on to say that the inhabitants and the city were created before the existence of time, and that it isn't apart of the order of created things. As far as I am concerned, that speaks very strongly to a hierarchy.”
The scan does not describe the universe as a child’s toy to the Silver City, it merely states that the Silver City appears to be covered in glitter or glisten like a child’s toy. And according to FAQ, predating time does not make you a higher infinity.
- 7,832
- 14,849
Partially? Then where's the rest of it? Also, how would Overvoid transcending story make it 1-A or mean that infinite layers could be added? The fact that story created the Monitors (though this was retconned) doesn't justify that. Even in the most charitable scenario, that story created an entire layer of infinity and Monitor Mind transcended that concept, we would still need additional evidence to support the claim that infinite layers could be added.
And, no, Monitor Mind does not transcend story. The scans disprove this definitively. Story can damage Overvoid, and Overvoid was defenseless against it.
You are claiming that your argument -- that the ability to see things in a certain realm means they are not a lower level of infinity -- is valid. Why does this not apply to Nil?
Inhabitants of the Sixth Dimension are literally made of the Overvoid, and beings on that level can freely traverse through it. What is the evidence of the Overvoid having qualitative superiority to the Sixth Dimension? The Green Lanterns were literally able to hold back the Overvoid with constructs.
If you say so. Myself and many others disagree.
Last edited:
- 1,298
- 1,041
There’s other pieces of evidence but I didn’t think I needed to post all of it to get my point across.
Monitor Mind can be 1-A through completely transcending story because if story can be considered as the framework which conceptualizes the Multiverse and it’s hierarchy’s size, then transcending that framework would put Monitor Mind beyond any possible extension of the hierarchy. Which is why the example of the Monitor Sphere being able to be added or inserted into the canvas(Monitor Mind) as a part of the Multiverse, while Monitor Mind remained unaffected and completely transcendent works, as according to FAQ
FAQ - “For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted.”
Also I already addressed your misinterpretation of Final Crisis.
- “When the scan talks about Monitor Mind having no understanding of the “damage” story might do, it’s not describing physical harm, but rather its a metaphor for how Monitor Mind’s image as this perfect white space is sullied by the infinitesimal but yet significant flaw within itself.”
Whether this applies to Nil or not is a separate issue from the Silver City. And I’m not going to let you drag this into 50 different topics because you can’t stay on the main one.
The Monitors are also of the Overvoid due to being splinters of Mar Novu, and the Overvoid was literally God to them. Another example is Takion who is of The Source and was created by Highfather, yet isn’t equal to it. So just because the Monitor Brothers were created from Overvoid, doesn’t mean they’re equal to it.
If I recollect the Green Lanterns were holding together an opening in the Source Wall so destructive cosmic energy wouldn’t spill into the Multiverse. That’s not the same as holding back the Overvoid itself. I don’t even understand how the Green Lanterns “holding back the Overvoid” would even be make sense since the Overvoid is literally what the Multiverse exists inside of.
It’s fine to disagree, but it doesn’t change that you’re still wrong about the Silver City being a higher infinity.
Last edited:
- 7,832
- 14,849
What evidence is there that "story is the framework which conceptualizes the multiverse and it's hierarchy's size" and what exactly does that mean in practical terms? You're doing yourself no favors by writing in such an incoherent manner.
The FAQ indicates that an infinite amount of layers must be able to be added. But per your own arguments, Nil is not a higher layer of infinity either way.
Why are you speaking as a hypothetical? You've been asked a question. Do you concede that part of your argument, or do you agree that it also applies to Nil?
God =/= Infinitely Transcendent. This isn't even an argument.
No one is saying they're equal to it, rather, they are clearly on the same level of infinity.
Yes it is. What do you think is on the other side of the Source Wall, exactly?
Your opinion isn't fact. Feeling strongly about your opinion won't make it a fact.
- 1,298
- 1,041
The evidence is in the comics and further backed by some of Grant Morrison’s statements.
Morrison - “In the case of comic book stories, it's the war between white page and ink. And who's to say that the page might want that particular story drawn on it? [laughs] What happens if the page is a bit pissed off at the story that's drawn on it? So I thought of the page as God. The idea being that the Overvoid – as we called it in Final Crisis - of the white page as a space is sort of God. And it's condensing stories out of itself because it finds inside its own gigantic white space, self-absorbed pristine consciousness, it finds this little stain or mark, this DC Multiverse somebody has 'drawn'.”
Morrison - “It contains everything—all good, all evil, all contradiction, all possibility. Just like the page of a comic. The first mark on the page could become anything. The mark is all possibility.”
So as mentioned by Morrison, the Multiverse is a stain or mark, formed from those trying to draw or develop a story within the Overvoid. Meaning story can be considered to conceptualize or form the idea of the Multiverse. Which is reflected in Multiversity and Final Crisis, where the universe becoming Multiverse was seen was seen as an endless play of matter and narrative. And once story spread, a higher layer known as the Monitor Sphere was inserted into the Overvoid/added to the Multiverse. Proving that stories conceptualization of the Multiverse extends to the size of its hierarchy as well.
And I’m not going to answer the question as it has nothing to do with whether the Silver City is a higher infinity and is a blatant attempt to divert from the topic at hand.
Saying “they’re clearly on the same level of infinity” is not an argument. The Monitor Brothers being created from the Overvoid doesn’t automatically prove they're on the same level of existence as it, as shown from the Monitors and Takion.
Multiverses, judges, unknown beings. I digress, they were holding together the Source Wall to prevent destructive cosmic energy from spilling into the Multiverse. They weren’t holding back the Overvoid, which is a sentence that doesn’t even make sense since the whole multiverse literally exist in the Overvoid. Thats like saying I’m holding back the fabric of spacetime from spilling into my house on Earth.
Me telling you the scan about the Silver City does not state what you claim it does, isn’t an opinion.
- 7,832
- 14,849
Didn't you say like two months ago that you no longer recognized author statements as evidence? You changed your mind again?
How does any of this support your claim?
What is the connection between the first sentence and the second? Starting it with "meaning" isn't actually an explanation or an argument.
It has to do with whether Nil is a higher infinity, and whether your argument is sound. As it stands you have argued that Nil is not a higher infinity based on your reasoning.
They literally are the Overvoid. And beings on that level can freely traverse the Overvoid.
Wrong. The correct answer was "the Overvoid." The ocean of destructive cosmic energy on the other side of the crack in the Source Wall was the Overvoid. That's what they were holding back with their constructs.
Your opinion about what it says is an opinion. One that several disagree with.
- 1,853
- 950
Deagonx makes more sense imo.
- 1,298
- 1,041
As long as they’re not contradictory to the comics, they should be fine.
The author statements support my claim because what Grant Morrison’s trying to get at, is when attempting to create a story, one’s first mark on the page can become anything. You can create whatever story you want on it. So that mark/flaw within the Overvoid can be said to represent all possibility of what the story can become. In the case of DC, as the development of story begin and progressed, that mark, that stain, that flaw, which can develop into anything amidst all the possibilities, grew into the DC Multiverse. As the development of story/narrative played and progressed, universe became Multiverse, and it grew with even higher layers being added to the hierarchy like the Monitor Sphere. However, as Morrison expressed, what conceptualized/formed the idea of the DC Multiverse was the mark or stain which represents all the possibilities of what the story of DC can become.
And the blank page, the abstract awareness without limits or definition where are all contradictions are unified, contains within its infinite consciousness as an infinitesimal speck, the mark which represents all the possibilities of what the DC Multiverse and it’s size can form into. And that goes for the amount of universes, to even the amount of layers within the hierarchy.
I haven’t argued anything about Nil. You’re the one trying to change the subject to argue about Nil because you can’t prove the Silver City is a higher infinity.
The Monitor Brothers are not the Overvoid. The fact that you even think this is concerning and I don’t even know where you could have got that from.
Also I don’t recall them being able to “freely traverse” the Overvoid but even if they could, I don’t know how that would prove the Overvoid is on the same level of existence as the sixth dimension.
Where is it stated that the Overvoid is destructive cosmic energy?
Translation: “Deagonx got caught lying about what is said in the Silver City scan and has resulted to calling me pointing out what the text actually says, an opinion.”
Last edited:
- 7,832
- 14,849
Yikes. This just strikes me as an incredible amount of sophistry and I am not at all persuaded that any of the actual evidence you provided is indicative of an infinitely layered hierarchy or an ability to create one. I guess we can ask the staff if theyre convinced but to me this is just a lot of word salad.
You said that the ability to visually observe something from a plane disproves qualitative superiority. When asked, you doubled down on that argument. So Nil isn't qualitatively superior to the Multiverse. That's your argument.
They are literally pieces of the Overvoid.
Why do you argue about comics you haven't read?
"For months, a contingent of the Green Lantern Corps has desperately tried to hold the wall together with sheer will, without falling prey to the all-consuming and impossible void beyond it."
No one lied. Your opinions aren't facts.
- 1,298
- 1,041
I don’t care if you’re not persuaded. I already know how you are. I’m here only to persuade the staff.
It’s not just because they can see the universe, it’s because the universe is not treated as something infinitesimal. Whether Nil also doesn’t meet this criteria is a completely separate topic that has nothing to do with the Silver City.
Yes rent from the Overvoid and molded into flesh by Perpetua.
The Monitor Brothers(Anti Monitor, Mar Novu, and Alpheus) are not the Overvoid. They are not the void which the DC Multiverse exist inside of. They’re entirely separate entities. The fact that this has to be explained to you is crazy.
Notice how nowhere does that state the Overvoid is the “cosmic energy of destruction.”
- 7,832
- 14,849
Good luck.
Ahh. Great. So you concede that being able to see something doesn't affect whether or not there's qualitative superiority.
Yes. They are literally pieces of the Overvoid.
You thinking that I meant that they are literally identical beings is a failing of your cognition, not a flaw in my argument.
Your penchant for misunderstanding aside, the fact remains, they were made from pieces of the Overvoid.
Notice that they are literally holding back the Overvoid. You've been shown extremely explicit proof. Do you concede or are you going to drag out this completely lost argument for no reason?
Concession accepted.
- 7,832
- 14,849
So, we've now established that the Lanterns held back the Overvoid, that the Monitor Brothers are made out of pieces of it. We know it has an end. And that the main argument for it being 1-A is based primarily on Xear's conjecture that the Overvoid infinitely transcends something that could do damage to it, and that it was defenseless against.
No, I definitely think Elizio is more reasonable here. 1-C at best.
No, I definitely think Elizio is more reasonable here. 1-C at best.
- 1,298
- 1,041
No because that was never the full argument.
- “If I recall, galaxies and Nebulae of a universe should be infinitesimal to something that exist on a higher infinity.”
You said they were literally the Overvoid.
Deagonx - “They literally are the Overvoid. And beings on that level can freely traverse the Overvoid.”
Also, I never denied that the Monitor Brothers were made from the Overvoid so I don’t know why you’re trying to act like that was some point of contention.
No they’re holding back cosmic energy of destruction. Which you haven’t proven the Overvoid is. You also haven’t addressed how it would even make sense for the Green Lanterns to be holding back the literal void the Multiverse exists in from entering the Multiverse.
Lol?
You haven’t proven anything this whole thread.
- The Overvoid existing on the same level as the sixth dimension isn’t supported by the reasons you gave.
- You don’t have evidence the lanterns held back the Overvoid.
- The Monitor brothers being pieces of the Overvoid was never a point of contention, rather it was your claim that the Monitor Brothers are the Overvoid, which is false.
- Story did not physically harm the Overvoid and this misunderstanding was addressed already, as well as the Overvoid being stated by Perpetua to have an end.
- And lastly, you haven’t proven the Silver City is a higher infinity to the universe and all your reasons for it were either against FAQ, irrelevant, or straight up editorializations of what was said in a scan.
Last edited:
- 3,259
- 3,046
If Perpetua says the Overvoid has an end, this means that the Overvoid is vast but not truly infinite. The Contradictions, Complexities, and Overvoid argument only refers to the relationship between the Overvoid and the Multiverse which, unlike Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, contains complexities and contradictions and stories of good, evil, love, death, etc.
Even Chronicler says the main multiverse is different from other multiverses he's visited before and unlike them, this one is a place of "cosmic fairy tales", which support my claims above. It was never about the Overvoid containing or being beyond all contradictions. Saying this is equivalent to saying that the Overvoid cannot be reconnected, which is not true. The Overvoid is only qualitatively superior to the Sixth Dimension which gives it the 1-C Tier but that's all.
- 1,298
- 1,041
The point I made within my last comment to you about this specific argument, is not so much that Monitor Mind just contains all contradictions but that all contradictions are resolved within itself into unity and it’s oneness. Meaning ultimate good is also ultimate evil, black is also white, up is also down, infinite is also finite. That’s why Monitor Mind can be stated to be infinite while also stated to be finite from the perspective of two beings within Multiverse.
Also no where did I say the Overvoid can’t be retconned. I’m merely saying that contradictory descriptions about Monitor Mind are irrelevant due to Monitor Mind seemingly resolving all contradictions within itself into unity. Ultima addressed part of this stuff a while ago and it seems you guys want to now ignore it out of spite, because you’re upset that I pushed for the Vertigo’s characters and cosmology to not be 1-A. Which is crazy because instead of questioning why you all applied less scrutiny to Vertigo’s cosmology and allowed poor justifications with no evidence for its tier to fly under the radar, you guys chose to get mad at me for pointing it out? That’s childish, and I’m not going to play this unproductive game with you where we go back and forth to try and see who can downgrade whichever cosmology harder to spite the other person.
Last edited:
- 2,833
- 2,014
I think 1-C is fine for the Overvoid if anything and the Void as 1-C as well.
A portion of the Void that encompasses all parts of Existence still make it amount to 0. Even when you combined infinite Creations in the heartbeat of Eternity, the Mansion rejected Creations, Elaine’s Creation, Night, and Time would not fill it.
A portion of the Void that encompasses all parts of Existence still make it amount to 0. Even when you combined infinite Creations in the heartbeat of Eternity, the Mansion rejected Creations, Elaine’s Creation, Night, and Time would not fill it.
- 2,833
- 2,014
Everything below the Overvoid should be about a level or two in tier. Mandrakk and CAS should cap at Low 1-C.
Everything is infinitesimal to it = a level of infinity.
Infinite Creations amounts to nothing in just a portion of the Void including structures higher than 2-A Creations such as Heaven and the Mansions = 2 level of Infinity above Creations and 1 level above Yahweh Creations outside the Multiverse.
Everything is infinitesimal to it = a level of infinity.
Infinite Creations amounts to nothing in just a portion of the Void including structures higher than 2-A Creations such as Heaven and the Mansions = 2 level of Infinity above Creations and 1 level above Yahweh Creations outside the Multiverse.
Last edited:
- 7,832
- 14,849
I already posted a scan proving it, and even without it being explicitly referred to as the Overvoid, the fact of the matter is that the Overvoid is what's beyond the Source Wall, and your theory that beyond the Source Wall there's some non-Overvoid "ocean of destructive energy" was nonsensical.
We have. You have simply refused to accept even the most explicit proof for things that contradict what you want to argue for.
The green lantern thing is particularly ridiculous.
Anyone trying to say with a straight face that they didn't hold back the Overvoid is just confessing their own inability to be reasonable.
- 7,832
- 14,849
A single author statement doesn't allow you to circumvent clear comic evidence. Besides that, these aren't even coming from the same author.
No one is ignoring it. It just doesn't support your argument at all.
Agreed.
- 1,298
- 1,041
The Overvoid being the void beyond the Source Wall =/= “the Overvoid is destructive cosmic energy” it just means the Overvoid is the void beyond the source wall. So your conclusion that they’re the same thing, isn’t supported by the scans. And calling my argument “nonsensical” or a “theory” isn’t going to make your random assumption more appealing.
Im not being unreasonable, I’m simply just not accepting what you haven’t proven.
It’s supported via the comics as well, and I’m not evading the scan Elizio referenced, rather I’m merely stating that when you take into account the Overvoids nature as depicted in Final Crisis and Multiversity, contradictory statements made by other characters about the Overvoid can coexist.
Last edited:
- 2,833
- 2,014
I’ve never consider the Overvoid the same after Final Crisis/Multiversity. It regarded as just vast space beyond the Multiverse.
In the most current canon rendition of the Overvoid was just the perfect forming of the Light when it preceded the Darkness. That was when the Light was at its best not necessarily the full Light. Though it may vary what that actually means.
Overvoid the immaculate perfection of the Light
The Great Darkness is much larger than it. Given that the Great Darkness scales to it in power and triumph it in size. We could give the Great Darkness 1-C as well.
In the most current canon rendition of the Overvoid was just the perfect forming of the Light when it preceded the Darkness. That was when the Light was at its best not necessarily the full Light. Though it may vary what that actually means.
Overvoid the immaculate perfection of the Light
The Great Darkness is much larger than it. Given that the Great Darkness scales to it in power and triumph it in size. We could give the Great Darkness 1-C as well.
- 1,298
- 1,041
Well, it was rarely given direct focus past Final Crisis and Multiversity. However nothing about it truly changed under Snyder, as it’s still the Void the entire main Multiverse and other Multiverses exist inside of. Snyder just never cared to refocus on it after Morrison went all out with it. Which is fine because DC is way too big to give everything direct focus.
Last edited:
- 7,832
- 14,849
Yes, it is. They are holding back the Overvoid. This leg of the discussion is a waste of time.
Your argument is that the impossible all consuming void beyond the source wall that the Lanterns are holding back isn't the Overvoid because they don't literally use that name. You are absolutely being unreasonable, and it's very telling of the mindset being used to approach every issue in this thread. You are starting from a conclusion and working backwards, attempting to deny or muddy the waters around every piece of evidence that doesn't suit your conclusion.
The evidence for the Green Lanterns holding back the Overvoid is so smack in the face obvious that the fact you've been trying to deny it for this long borders on thread ban worthy. We don't need our time wasted with this kind of silliness.
- 2,833
- 2,014
Something’s do not need to be direct to affirm a change in how it is written. If every mention of the Void in context is references as the Overvoid then it being beyond the Multiverse has always been the case.
The problem is that it’s not treated as the non-dual canvas that is an infinite abstract intelligence.
No longer non-dual because it’s opposite dichotomy is the Darkness.
Maybe not infinite due to the statement with the Cosmic Raptor and Perpetua.
- 3,259
- 3,046
All contradictions are resolved within itself into unity and its oneness is a way like any other to say that the Overvoid is beyond the contradictions, which isn't the case. Monitor-Mind The Overvoid had to create a divine metal concept to contain the Multiverse and prevent its spread within the Overvoid, which means that the Overvoid is not that beyond contradictions and complexities. The story simply describes the relationship between the Overvoid and the Multiverse which is everything Monitor-Mind The Overvoid is not and, unlike the Overvoid, contains contradictions and complexities, it says nothing like you said. Even if I'm wrong, it doesn't change the fact that the Overvoid has been retconned.
- 1,298
- 1,041
No they’re holding back destructive cosmic energy, which you have yet to prove is the same as the Overvoid.
That’s not my argument at all. Matter of fact I even acknowledged that the usage of “void” within the scan is referring to the Overvoid.
My argument is that the “destructive cosmic energy” is not the Overvoid.
Also nowhere is it stated in the scan that “they’re holding back the all consuming void.” It says they’re holding together the Source Wall, without falling prey to the Void beyond.
I agree with the first sentence but I don’t agree with your last point. As even around the time of metal, Morrison still went out of his way to reference non-dual omni awareness existing beyond the Source Wall.
- 2,833
- 2,014
Synder/Tynion IV:
Hecate and Upside Downman - 2-B, possibly 2-A(full control over domain)
Mister Mxyzptlk - 2-C, likely 2-B
The Brothers Three - Low 1-C(In 6th Dimesnion maybe be lower since they scale to 6D but are not the Sixth Dimesnion itself.)
Perpetua and Darkest Knight should be 1-C.
Source/Presence - 1-C, possibly High 1-C(If much higher than the Cosmology but very unlikely.)
Grant Morrison:
Nil Monitors - 2B, possibly 2-A(Depends if we take higher interpretation of the realms).
Cosmic Armor Superman and Mandrakk - 2-A, likely Low 1-C.
Monitor Mind, the Overvoid - Likely 1-C
J.M. DeMattheis:
Order and Chaos - 2-A(Act of Duality)
Mahapralaya/Pralaya - 1-B.
Divine Presence/Smile/God - 1-B, possibly High 1-B.
Nile Gaiman/Mike Carey -
Endless - Low 1-C, possibly 1-B(True Potential.)
Lucifer Morningstar and Michael Demiurgos - Low 1-C, possibly 1-B(superior to the Endless.)
Night and Time - Low 1-C, possibly 1-B(scale to the Endless and made every possibility of Creations possible.)
First Circle - Low 1-C, possibly 1-B(scale to Endless.)
Yahweh/Void - 1-C, possibly 1-B(Massively superior to Michael, Lucifer, the Host, and everyone combined. Also the same as the Void.)
Williamson:
Empty Hand and Darkseid - 2-B, possibly 2-A.
Pariah - Likely 2-A.
The Light - Likely 1-C
The Darkness - Low 1-C, likely 1-C.
This is my opinion.
Hecate and Upside Downman - 2-B, possibly 2-A(full control over domain)
Mister Mxyzptlk - 2-C, likely 2-B
The Brothers Three - Low 1-C(In 6th Dimesnion maybe be lower since they scale to 6D but are not the Sixth Dimesnion itself.)
Perpetua and Darkest Knight should be 1-C.
Source/Presence - 1-C, possibly High 1-C(If much higher than the Cosmology but very unlikely.)
Grant Morrison:
Nil Monitors - 2B, possibly 2-A(Depends if we take higher interpretation of the realms).
Cosmic Armor Superman and Mandrakk - 2-A, likely Low 1-C.
Monitor Mind, the Overvoid - Likely 1-C
J.M. DeMattheis:
Order and Chaos - 2-A(Act of Duality)
Mahapralaya/Pralaya - 1-B.
Divine Presence/Smile/God - 1-B, possibly High 1-B.
Nile Gaiman/Mike Carey -
Endless - Low 1-C, possibly 1-B(True Potential.)
Lucifer Morningstar and Michael Demiurgos - Low 1-C, possibly 1-B(superior to the Endless.)
Night and Time - Low 1-C, possibly 1-B(scale to the Endless and made every possibility of Creations possible.)
First Circle - Low 1-C, possibly 1-B(scale to Endless.)
Yahweh/Void - 1-C, possibly 1-B(Massively superior to Michael, Lucifer, the Host, and everyone combined. Also the same as the Void.)
Williamson:
Empty Hand and Darkseid - 2-B, possibly 2-A.
Pariah - Likely 2-A.
The Light - Likely 1-C
The Darkness - Low 1-C, likely 1-C.
This is my opinion.
- 7,832
- 14,849
This destructive cosmic energy is beyond the Source Wall, and described as the "all-consuming, impossible void."
Are you done stonewalling or can we move on?
How would they fall prey to it, exactly, if it isn't the destructive energy they're holding back? This isn't rhetorical.
Non-duality doesn't justify any of what you said about "contradictions."
- 1,298
- 1,041
How does the Overvoid creating a concept to contain the flaw disprove the Overvoid being beyond contradictions?
- 2,833
- 2,014
Not really. In most of the reference of it was a typical space devoid of material outside the Multiverse.
There’s not really a mention of how it was described like that of how Grant wrote it. The best we get is maybe that it is all-consuming energy outside the Multiverse.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
