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yep, as above
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The DC Comics Cosmology Revision Project - Part 3
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I don't really touch cosmology stuff so I can't comment. Sorry
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I as others have said before I don't typically touch the DC comics stuff or tier 1
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Following.
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Agree with people here. I don’t see any scans which support 1A Lucifer Without composite cosmology. Lucifer’s best feat is defeating odins henchmen with one hand behind his back . The same beings were said to be powerful than chaos and order
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it comes from scaling to the void
Deleted member 2530
Guest
The Hunt are not Odin's henchmen, that version is not being used yet and that is not his best feat. At least, don't try to be that wrong.
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Just a quick question. I don't seem to understand the reasoning for High 1-C. As considering it seems to stem from transcending above the sixth dimension, which looks to be only baseline 1-C. Wouldn't the High 1-C characters simply just be a higher level of 1-C? Or am I simply missing something.
From what I'm getting. The sixth dimension is 7th dimensional (Ironically enough), and the High 1-C characters are just 8th dimensional, which is still 1-C.
From what I'm getting. The sixth dimension is 7th dimensional (Ironically enough), and the High 1-C characters are just 8th dimensional, which is still 1-C.
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Looking at it, this appears to be correct based on the levels of transcendence indicated. It's only 4 levels above Low 2-C which is still just 1-C.
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Also another thing, what's the reasoning for discarding Mxy's current High 1-C rating?
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Well he's below the sixth dimension.
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I don't think it's that big a change. High 1-C guys would just be 1-C.
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something about M-Theory in the multiverse and the 5th dimensional being being able to destroy it.
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I agree it's a fairly small change and worth implementing since the reasoning is valid. The blog clearly asserts how many levels of infinity are being traversed in each layer, and the High 1-C rating is higher than what we have, so it appears to be a relatively minor oversight that we can fix.
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It's a very small change. In the "tiering" section under "Unseen Council" all that needs to be changed is the removal of the word "High" in "High 1-C." It's the only instance of High 1-C in the blog. So if you ctrl+f "High 1-C" you'll find it immediately and can just remove the "High"
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Yes.
The New Gods (true form) should be "At least 2-C" or "At least 2-B, possibly 2-A" if we scale their pre-crisis forms
The Monitors, Mandrakk, the Monitor Brothers should be "Low 1-C".
The Unseen Council (The Hands, Perpetua, Dr. Manhattan, Darkest Knight, Anti-Crisis Wonder Woman) should be "1-C"
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Thank you.
I handled it:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...on_2?type=revision&diff=7909272&oldid=7847331
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Thank you.
I am in a hurry though. Can you give quick instructions regarding which phrases I should seach for and modify please?
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Well, that depends on whether others agree with my suggestion. With the information we had from Morrison (years 2008s and 2015s) and Scott Snyder stories, I doubt there is enough evidence to put the New Gods to Low 1-C. Their true forms are said to be outside the Orrery but there is not enough evidence that the New Gods infinitly transcends the Orrery.Thank you.
I am in a hurry though. Can you give quick instructions regarding which phrases I should seach for and modify please?
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The Monitors as a whole should be Low 1-C.
Starting with the Monitors of Nil, Mandrakk and Thought Robot:
The Monitors perceive the Bleed, the 4-dimensional interdimensional space between universes, as a tangible and consumable substance.
Thought Robot perceive Comic Book Limbo, existing outside the Orrery and the Sphere of the Gods, as an infinitesimal disk.
The Monitor Sphere exists on the edge of things and on a level of existence similar to that of the 5-D imagination that flows between realms and brings stories to life. I don't know if there's enough evidence to support that the Monitor Sphere transcends the Fifth Dimension, but the Monitors can suck the multiverse dry of stories and drain "life to stories."
For the Monitors of the Sixth Dimension:
They exists beyond the Fifth Dimension and are superior to Mr. Mxyzptlk.
Nil Monitors are aspects of Mar Novu.
While the Monitor Sphere is on the edge of things, the Sixth Dimension is the final realm and highest plane of existence of the multiverse.
Time Transcending Monitors "Controversy":
Although they are said to transcend time, this has been repeatedly "contradicted" starting with the Monitor Sphere which contains beginnings and ends.
A timeline of 20 billion years is referenced along the Sixth Dimension, though it's entirely possible that this timelime of 20 billion years could be referenced along the multiverse Perpetua created in the Sixth Dimension.
When Superman ventured into the Sixth Dimension, his speed was referenced in physical terms, saying it will take hours for light to catch up with him, months for sound. Again, it's not impossible that the reason Superman's speed was referenced in physical terms was because he was in the multiverse of Alpheus in the Sixth Dimension, following the rules of reality written by Alpheus.
Despite these controversies, these are debatable as I said above and the Sixth-Dimensional Monitors can peer into the Fourth Dimension of Time to see possible futures and can even control the Timestream in its entirety. And Alpheus built Hypertime after all.
Anyway, even if the Monitor Sphere and the Sixth Dimension don't really transcend time as a whole, they definitely do transcend the 4-dimensional axis/universal space-time. I don't think it would affect their tier, so it's irrelevant.
Starting with the Monitors of Nil, Mandrakk and Thought Robot:
The Monitors perceive the Bleed, the 4-dimensional interdimensional space between universes, as a tangible and consumable substance.
Thought Robot perceive Comic Book Limbo, existing outside the Orrery and the Sphere of the Gods, as an infinitesimal disk.
The Monitor Sphere exists on the edge of things and on a level of existence similar to that of the 5-D imagination that flows between realms and brings stories to life. I don't know if there's enough evidence to support that the Monitor Sphere transcends the Fifth Dimension, but the Monitors can suck the multiverse dry of stories and drain "life to stories."
For the Monitors of the Sixth Dimension:
They exists beyond the Fifth Dimension and are superior to Mr. Mxyzptlk.
Nil Monitors are aspects of Mar Novu.
While the Monitor Sphere is on the edge of things, the Sixth Dimension is the final realm and highest plane of existence of the multiverse.
Time Transcending Monitors "Controversy":
Although they are said to transcend time, this has been repeatedly "contradicted" starting with the Monitor Sphere which contains beginnings and ends.
A timeline of 20 billion years is referenced along the Sixth Dimension, though it's entirely possible that this timelime of 20 billion years could be referenced along the multiverse Perpetua created in the Sixth Dimension.
When Superman ventured into the Sixth Dimension, his speed was referenced in physical terms, saying it will take hours for light to catch up with him, months for sound. Again, it's not impossible that the reason Superman's speed was referenced in physical terms was because he was in the multiverse of Alpheus in the Sixth Dimension, following the rules of reality written by Alpheus.
Despite these controversies, these are debatable as I said above and the Sixth-Dimensional Monitors can peer into the Fourth Dimension of Time to see possible futures and can even control the Timestream in its entirety. And Alpheus built Hypertime after all.
Anyway, even if the Monitor Sphere and the Sixth Dimension don't really transcend time as a whole, they definitely do transcend the 4-dimensional axis/universal space-time. I don't think it would affect their tier, so it's irrelevant.
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Just to address some things.
There was no valid reason to cut out Morrison’s stuff from before the 2000s. Morrison has referenced in interviews that they’re work plays into stuff that literally goes all the way back to Animal Man.
Grant Morrison - “And yeah, Final Crisis kind of played into it, and it played out of Final Crisis. But it also plays into everything I've done, even going back to Animal Man. That's just something I like to do - to link up all the stuff I've done for DC.”
Furthermore certain realms like Limbo and Wonderworld and their scaling are entirely dependent on those pre 2000s comics like JLA, etc. Even stuff like the Overvoids origin story was taken from Morrison’s Doom Patrol run. And I don’t recollect Morrison’s pre 2000s stuff contradicting Snyder’s stuff so it’s pretty senseless to remove it.
What Mxy listed as dimensions don’t align with the 4 physics based dimensions being length, width, depth, and time. Mxy said the first dimension is a point, the second is a line, the third is material stuff, and the 4th is time which all except the last one listed, aren’t what the 4 physics based dimensions are. And even if we try to look at the intention, Scott Snyder has denied his dimensions being physics based.
The Source/Presence = Overvoid thing makes no sense. According to the comics, the Source is a sentient energy which lies in the Overvoid at the center of the Greater Omniverse, exists due to the belief of Gods, and lives in all things. Furthermore The Source took part in making creation and understands what creation is. The Overvoid is depicted in Final Crisis and Multiversity to have not taken part in making creation and to not understand what it is. When you factor in all these things, it’s literally impossible for the Source to be the Overvoid or share its tier. The main evidence for the Source = Overvoid stems from author statements which are largely irrelevant due to the material taking precedence over author statements. So The Source or Presence should not be put on the same tier as the Overvoid since they’re completely different and separate entities.
About Mike Carey and Neil Gaimans cosmology.
I feel like the rest of the scaling was just built off the tier given to the Silver City.
So the “possibly 1-A” ratings should be removed from basically everyone and the Void shouldn’t have a 1-A rating. It should be low 1-C.
There was no valid reason to cut out Morrison’s stuff from before the 2000s. Morrison has referenced in interviews that they’re work plays into stuff that literally goes all the way back to Animal Man.
Grant Morrison - “And yeah, Final Crisis kind of played into it, and it played out of Final Crisis. But it also plays into everything I've done, even going back to Animal Man. That's just something I like to do - to link up all the stuff I've done for DC.”
Furthermore certain realms like Limbo and Wonderworld and their scaling are entirely dependent on those pre 2000s comics like JLA, etc. Even stuff like the Overvoids origin story was taken from Morrison’s Doom Patrol run. And I don’t recollect Morrison’s pre 2000s stuff contradicting Snyder’s stuff so it’s pretty senseless to remove it.
What Mxy listed as dimensions don’t align with the 4 physics based dimensions being length, width, depth, and time. Mxy said the first dimension is a point, the second is a line, the third is material stuff, and the 4th is time which all except the last one listed, aren’t what the 4 physics based dimensions are. And even if we try to look at the intention, Scott Snyder has denied his dimensions being physics based.
The Source/Presence = Overvoid thing makes no sense. According to the comics, the Source is a sentient energy which lies in the Overvoid at the center of the Greater Omniverse, exists due to the belief of Gods, and lives in all things. Furthermore The Source took part in making creation and understands what creation is. The Overvoid is depicted in Final Crisis and Multiversity to have not taken part in making creation and to not understand what it is. When you factor in all these things, it’s literally impossible for the Source to be the Overvoid or share its tier. The main evidence for the Source = Overvoid stems from author statements which are largely irrelevant due to the material taking precedence over author statements. So The Source or Presence should not be put on the same tier as the Overvoid since they’re completely different and separate entities.
About Mike Carey and Neil Gaimans cosmology.
- The Silver City/Heaven and Hell are Low 1-C. The Silver City predates and transcends Creation, which has infinite timelines, and Hell is its dark reflection.
- All Endless: Delirium, Despair, Desire, Destruction, Dream are Low 1-C. The Endless are the primal truths of the Presence's creation and oversee every aspect of it. Dream's oldest incarnation exists outside of space and time and is a part of the eldritch abominations that exists in space beneath space and space beyond space.
I feel like the rest of the scaling was just built off the tier given to the Silver City.
- The Void is 1-A as it's beyond space-time and the hierarchy of dimensions and transcends it completely.
So the “possibly 1-A” ratings should be removed from basically everyone and the Void shouldn’t have a 1-A rating. It should be low 1-C.
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I would have been agree with most of the things you said but here, it was decided to combine Morrison and Scott Snyder's cosmologies.
It is obvious that Scott Snyder based his work on that of Morrison of the 2000s with Final Crisis and Multiversity. It's true that a lot of the ideas we've seen in Final Crisis and Multiversity were built around Morrison's JLA, Animal Man, and Doom Patrol stories, but a lot of the ideas we've seen in those previous stories don't match what Scott Snyder and James Tynion IV built. While there are a few ideas from Final Crisis and Multiversity that also don't align with Scott Snyder's approach to DC Cosmology, the differences are minimal and can be reconciled.
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Morrison's stories before the 2000s treat the Fifth Dimension as a geometric dimension and even as a mathematical dimension. Plus, this approach on the Fifth Dimension can be seemingly affected by physics. Scott Snyder's stories treat the Fifth Dimension as a higher plane of existence that does not correlate with physics.
Where Pre-2000s Morrison stories imply that the multiverse contains 6-D bottles and 8-D mazes because of Wonderworld, Post-2000s Morrison stories treat the multiverse now encompassed by the Orrery as having a 4-D space-time continuum only. Yes, the Bleed is no exception as Monitor Zillo Valla described it as a 4-D space between universes. Scott Snyder confirmed this idea in his Justice League when Mr. Mxyzptlk said that the multiverse exists in four dimensions.
Where Morrison says Monitor-Mind The Overvoid is the abstract intelligence embodying the non-dual, absolute nothingness outside of creation, Scott Snyder explained that the Overvoid, The Presence, The Source are manifestations or aspects of the same whole. Also, Snyder doesn't seem to treat the Overvoid as Morrison described it in his interviews or his early Doom Patrol. And Morrison even said that The Source and Monitor-Mind were the same before.
So, Post-2000s Morrison (Final Crisis & Multiversity) and Scott Snyder's approach on the DC Cosmology doesn't match with the Pre-2000s Morrison's take on The DCU.
Where Pre-2000s Morrison stories imply that the multiverse contains 6-D bottles and 8-D mazes because of Wonderworld, Post-2000s Morrison stories treat the multiverse now encompassed by the Orrery as having a 4-D space-time continuum only. Yes, the Bleed is no exception as Monitor Zillo Valla described it as a 4-D space between universes. Scott Snyder confirmed this idea in his Justice League when Mr. Mxyzptlk said that the multiverse exists in four dimensions.
Where Morrison says Monitor-Mind The Overvoid is the abstract intelligence embodying the non-dual, absolute nothingness outside of creation, Scott Snyder explained that the Overvoid, The Presence, The Source are manifestations or aspects of the same whole. Also, Snyder doesn't seem to treat the Overvoid as Morrison described it in his interviews or his early Doom Patrol. And Morrison even said that The Source and Monitor-Mind were the same before.
So, Post-2000s Morrison (Final Crisis & Multiversity) and Scott Snyder's approach on the DC Cosmology doesn't match with the Pre-2000s Morrison's take on The DCU.
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Rodney Rabbit's comment on the House of the Heroes rotating through the Fifth Dimension around a fixed point in the Orrery (Multiversity) probably refers to imagination rather than an extra spatial dimension since the Bleed is the lifeblood of stories. As seen in the last section above, Mr. Mxyzptlk says the multiverse exists in 4-D and directly enenvisions imagination as the Fifth Dimension to be an addition to the 4-D spatiotemporal multiverse.
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I don't know why you are bringing this up here. You already made these objections in the Part 2 thread -- the appropriate thread for this type of discussion (not this thread, which is for tiering only) and your arguments were discussed at length and ultimately not accepted by staff. This is not the venue to rehash such a discussion.
See above. The evidence for this is overwhelming and was discussed appropriately in Part 2.
Heaven is pretty consistently shown as transcending the multiverse in Gaiman and Carey's work, and the part about the void was from the statement that no matter how many creations there were, it would ultimately fill up 0% of the void. The entire hiearchy of creation being infinitesimal to the void should be sufficient for 1-A.
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I agree. The fifth dimension to Morrison is different than how it is so Snyder’s. However this can be easily resolved by just adjusting the scaling of Mxy. It doesn’t mean we have to cut out all of Morrison’s pre 2000s works.
This is where we begin to disagree. In the post 2000s, Morrison has referenced an 8-D structure and has also referenced how the house of heroes rotates through the fifth dimension. Which is 100% not “probably referring to imagination” in this context since like you said, Morrison treats the fifth dimension as a geometric dimension, and Bleed as a higher dimensional bulk space containing brane universes.
Where has Scott Snyder said this? The only thing I recall is a statement from the Imaginary Axis(who isn’t Scott Snyder) about how The Presence, Source, and Overvoid, all represent a similar creator figure being but with the Source being a less manifest version, and the Overvoid being an even less manifest. Which even taken at face value, wouldn’t support them all sharing the same tier or rating.
Also the point of my argument is that author statements shouldn’t take precedence over the material. Grant Morrison saying The Source is the same as the the Overvoid isn’t going to magically fix that Scott’s and their works support the exact opposite.
I disagree. There’s literally nothing about pre 2000s Morrison that makes it incompatible with or not match post 2000s Morrison cosmology. The only thing about Morrison’s cosmology(including both pre and post 2000s) that doesn’t match with Snyder’s is the fifth dimension which as I said can be fixed by simply altering Mxy’s tier.
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Which you haven’t given proof of. And even if you did “transcending” is a vague statement that in terms of tiering would translate to absolutely nothing on its own.
No it isn’t sufficient for 1-A. A tier 2 structure being infinitesimal to the Void would not push it to 1-A and neither would a tier low 1-C structure.
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I was thinking this too but it was all cleared up here
"A good way to accomplish this would be to show that whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensions present on the setting. For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted. This argument generalizes to tiers higher than 1-A as well."
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Don't derail this thread with an argument about how we're splitting the cosmology. That discussion has concluded.
Correct.
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