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Team Fortress 2 possible AP upgrade

TheLegendaryHerker said:
You dont know about TF2 lore and dont play the game, dont you? Bonk makes Scouts so fast that he can dodge everything.
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Instead of accusing me of being ignorant of the verse, countering with actual evidence for your claims would make this discussion much less confrontational.

Like why Scout is MHS with Bonk.
 
@Dargoo

Shots that land on Scout with Bonk say "Miss". Personally I'd be fine with intangibility, though, as that's much more useful to combat and still makes sense.
 
Jackythejack said:
Is there anything here that actually needs to be addressed tho?
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The OP of the thread was soundly rejected, now this is mostly just devolving into other issues with the verse.

I might want to close the thread so those points can be made later on their own dedicated thread.
 
Well scout still gets knocked back when in bonk, and iirc a comic showed it as a huge speed amp once.
 
Then we should use the comic for speed feats, not the game, where it being a speed amp is actively contradicted by knockback and him still technically being hit by the projectiles. They just don't register damage. We shouldn't cherrypick whatever gameplay aspects give the best feats; especially when we have the comics and cinematics for the actual story.

@Smashor "Miss" doesn't really mean much when he still gets thrown around by the projectiles.
 
Considering you're using stuff in gameplay as a feat though, it definitely would be considered. Don't think you can really pick and chose what parts of that are just a mechanic.
 
Have you heard a thing called Gameplay Mechanics?

Gameplay Mechanics is Warframes being able to block cold weather conditions, being knocked back in Bonk is its intended function because its to symbolize dodging even when the player couldn't physically react to it. See here
 
Wokistan said:
Considering you're using stuff in gameplay as a feat though, it definitely would be considered. Don't think you can really pick and chose what parts of that are just a mechanic.
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No. the only gameplay mechanic i cited here is Merasmus because he dont have much thing in comics. The others i used canon curtas and comics.
 
Abstractions said:
Gameplay Mechanics is Warframes being able to block cold weather conditions, being knocked back in Bonk is its intended function because its to symbolize dodging even when the player couldn't physically react to it. See here
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Dodging would be moving out of the way before something hits you, not being moved by something as it hits you.
 
Wokistan said:
Scout isn't being proved to rewrite the laws of physics though. You don't even need to do that to double jump.
There's quite a lot of powers that let you just create energy. We aren't giving everyone with that reality warping, that would be ridiculous.
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The literal meaning of reality warp is this, dude. If characters have these abilities then is pretty much fair to give them it. And doing the DJ you are rewriting the laws.
 
Reality warping is one of those powers like magic that you could theoretically classify anything under (and some verses actually do, like SCP Foundatio) but we don't give them out if that's not the actual stated mechanic being used.
 
TheLegendaryHerker said:
The literal meaning of reality warp is this, dude. If characters have these abilities then is pretty much fair to give them it. And doing the DJ you are rewriting the laws.
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Please give evidence for Scout rewriting the laws of physics to jump twice.

It's just something he can do, with no mechanics behind it explained. We don't call it "reality warping" unless it is explained as such. Otherwise anyone on the site with any supernatural power would warp reality, which is silly.
 
The wiki literally says invulnerable to be fair so I mean if we were going to take facts from the wiki then uh yeah it'd be invulnerability.
 
Dargoo Faust said:
Dodging would be moving out of the way before something hits you, not being moved by something as it hits you.
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The video does demonstrate Bonk forcing the player to move in reaction to Heavy's punch and Spy's stab, but for some reason this just doesn't function well into AoE like Pyro and Soldier, as seen from the beginning.

It is knock back, but obviously the intended design of it is elsewhere, it just doesn't always look that way.
 
If the intent is to portray dodging and it isn't accurately represented in the gameplay, we shouldn't look to gameplay to judge the feat when we (supposedly) have the comics to quantify it if possible.
 
Scout getting knockback from Heavy punches and blasts are simply a gameplay mechanic. Imagine a 173% speed invencible running Scout going into your base to get your intel with no knockback to stop him, this would be so ridiculous OP. Same thing of Scout dont attacking while on BONK, this would break the whole game. Theres no real explanation how Scout can double jump, but we can affirm by high acceleration of his feet he compresses the air under them into a temporary solid, which makes it possible to jump on and also can be seen and get mistaken as "dust" under his feet, or maybe because he jumps in his leg using the other leg, idk. I used Reality Warp to this because of real laws of physics. I already explained this before so i dont need to put it here again.
 
Jackythejack said:
Was it actually used in the comics? Which issue?
Maldonado it says that it is actually radioactive I think which...I mean can something come of that?
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A BONK drink can have more than 20lbs of sugar and tons of radiations. Scout drinks it and become extremely fast to the point he can react and dodge everything. The Afterimage effect on him can show us a bit of this this, also his voicelines while being hited and the miss above his head if you try to hurt him. Its unknown if the bonk can create something to harm others or objects, but its probably since its pure radiation. Also if you drinks it you would get a instantly rip in peace.
 
Again you're convieniently ignoring gameplay mechanics that confound a feat in order to validate it. The feat either is or isn't valid in the game, we aren't cutting out part of it because of gameplay and then counting the other part as a feat that defines his speed. If it has issues because of gameplay we should just throw it out in favor of what is shown in the story.

If we have an in-canon representation of it we should use that.

Even assuming all of this I've not really seen anything that says MHS.
 
Doing something that doesn't obey the laws of physics in fiction does not mean you can control and warp reality. Period. I don't know why I have to explain this multiple times; if we take your argument seriously we need to add RW to nearly any supernatural character, which as I've said is silly.

Just label it as "he can double jump".
 
Dargoo Faust said:
Doing something that doesn't obey the laws of physics in fiction does not mean you can control and warp reality. Period. I don't know why I have to explain this multiple times; if we take your argument seriously we need to add RW to nearly any supernatural character, which as I've said is silly.
Just label it as "he can double jump".
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That is what I was trying to get at you explained way better, thanks.
 
Dargoo Faust said:
Again you're convieniently ignoring gameplay mechanics that confound a feat in order to validate it. The feat either is or isn't valid in the game, we aren't cutting out part of it because of gameplay and then counting the other part as a feat that defines his speed. If it has issues because of gameplay we should just throw it out in favor of what is shown in the story.
If we have an in-canon representation of it we should use that.

Even assuming all of this I've not really seen anything that says MHS.
Click to expand...
No, bruh. The only gameplay mechanic i cited is Scout not getting knockback and the effects inside the game that can show us a bit of this. The whole rest of i said its cannon to the lore despite not being detailed shown on it, is shown inside the game, example the BONK itself. I think is better you read the comics. If you dont wanna explain then dont explain, i did the same thing 300 times. Also i said not all supernatural powers are directly a reality warp. Then forget about this if you think its irrelevant. But about tf2 lore itself this post is getting more awkward than it is, because you guys dont seem to know anything about the game.
 
Tfw you know nothing about the game yet somehow have like a thousand hours in it

If you're gonna use that the game is what's saying dodge, you can't just throw out that he's knocked back and that the item description itself says invulnerable. You already can't grab intel while bonked anyways so it's not just a balance thing.
 
Linking the scans in the comics that support MHS speed would be ideal.

I can go through the comics myself if needed, it's just that I'd expect someone criticizing my knowledge on the verse to have a better idea of where to find and defend feats instead of throwing up their hands and telling other people to do it.

As for my other issues with your argument Wok explained them better than I could.
 
Wokistan said:
Tfw you know nothing about the game yet somehow have like a thousand hours in it
If you're gonna use that the game is what's saying dodge, you can't just throw out that he's knocked back and that the item description itself says invulnerable. You already can't grab intel while bonked anyways so it's not just a balance thing.
Click to expand...
Yes, its is a balance thing. Ivulnerability its because the player becomes invencible for a short period of time. Yes you cant grab the intel, but a pro player Scout can simply go through the base using the BONK, when the effect passes he grab it and run. I already said, if theres no knockback to stop him, it would be OP, example because majority of the engineer/heavy defenses would be irrelevant depending on the point. Knockback is the only way to stop a Scout, not counting the environment deaths.
 
Dargoo Faust said:
Linking the scans in the comics that support MHS speed would be ideal.
I can go through the comics myself if needed, it's just that I'd expect someone criticizing my knowledge on the verse to have a better idea of where to find and defend feats instead of throwing up their hands and telling other people to do it.

As for my other issues with your argument Wok explained them better than I could.
Click to expand...
I already said to you, theres not a exploration of the BONK in comics but its is shown inside the game, i stated above the effects. The only calc of Scout in BONK is using in-game, because theres not a actual page of Scout in the drink effect, the only issue the BONK appeared is in Gravel Matters, on a advertisement. Idk what do you mean by your little text. I just wanted someone to help calculate the verse because im a bit bad on this. I already give you feats using the comics and curta canons. Just go to TF2 wikia , find and go through it, since im throwing up my hands and telling other people to do it, like you said.
 
Hork2 said:
Scout survived three rockets in MTE, the Soldier launcher is likely based on the RPG7 which have 20 to 21kg force. Scout surviving this makes him Building Level or possibly Large Building or higher, since he was already harmed before by other Blu Soldiers in the battle
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Oh yeah I can't believe I did not thought of that, It actually kind of makes more sense this time around for it being plausible. Mind you sure The Scout can take a decent amount of punishment like that but some of the other Merc's are considered much more durable then him so the results are going to actually be fulfilling this time around, Also what do you mean by MTE? Meet the Engeenier? (Sorry I just got up and whatnot.)

... Anyways, Now if only the Speed can be taken care of one day, Sure Subsonic/Subsonic+ speed with Supersonic/Supersonic+ Reactions is still relatively decent but I feel it might be much higher then its depection, If not I'm fine with this I'm just saying, Nice one nevertheless.
 
ThisLadWithTheCrowBar-5.1 said:
Hork2 said:
Scout survived three rockets in MTE, the Soldier launcher is likely based on the RPG7 which have 20 to 21kg force. Scout surviving this makes him Building Level or possibly Large Building or higher, since he was already harmed before by other Blu Soldiers in the battle
Click to expand...
Oh yeah I can't believe I did not thought of that, It actually kind of makes more sense this time around for it being plausible. Mind you sure The Scout can take a decent amount of punishment like that but some of the other Merc's are considered much more durable then him so the results are going to actually be fulfilling this time around, Also what do you mean by MTE? Meet the Engeenier? (Sorry I just got up and whatnot.)
... Anyways, Now if only the Speed can be taken care of one day, Sure Subsonic/Subsonic+ speed with Supersonic/Supersonic+ Reactions is still relatively decent but I feel it might be much higher then its depection, If not I'm fine with this I'm just saying, Nice one nevertheless.
Click to expand...
i think he means meet the medic. i already stated before the Scout feat on the curta, but weeklybatles said this feat is 9-B and scout was not in the point of the explosion. This dont make a minimun of sense, since if you pause the video around 0:13 to 0:14 the rockets are cleary hitting him, even passing through his model. Also a rocket is 9-B to 9-A, surviving three of them, flying and crushing into a base makes a person only wall level with durability? Ok.
 
I'll comment here since the other thread was closed.

Scout's Matter Manipulation should be removed. The Batsaber and C.A.P.P.E.R. are energy projection weapons that vaporize enemies on death. That has nothing to do with altering matter itself.

Superhuman Speed should be removed as it's already just part of Superhuman Physical Characteristics.

Fan O' War is not Death Manipulation. It marks targets for Death but doesn't induce it, and the effect of this is simply causing them to take more damage from attacks, which could be interpreted as Damage Boost.

Double-Jump isn't flight (unless we agreed to link it to flight but eh), we just say he can double Jump/jump additional times.

There are similar issues with other TF2 profiles, I will comment on them later.
 
I personally disagree on Double-Jump not being Flight, it's a limited version of it. It was also going to be a sub-type of it in the brief thread where Double-Jump as a power was being discussed.

I agree on everything else.
 
I think we do list double jumping as limited flight.
 
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