Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann revision

[Kaltias]

In the end, the main issue is if we are using composite profiles or not.

 

[BowserRulesAll]

Fair enough. Guess that needs clarification as well.

 

[Joseph619]

No tier upgrade/downgrade necessary, all of those were discussed thoroughly in previous thread. This is simply about STTLG not having abilities which are listed on the profile, as the SGGL in the movie did not show any of those abilities. Since the movie is non canon and we do not use spinoffs to make composite profiles, it should be removed. We do not have hakai on Goku's profile from Super manga.

 

[AquaWaifu]

the manga however for Super is made by Toyotaro or however you spell his name, a different team then that of the anime. whereas the GL movies are made iirc by the same team as the anime. plus with it condesning the show int oa two hour legnth, many stuff is implied to have happened rather than shown.

 

[Joseph619]

the manga however for Super is made by Toyotaro or however you spell his name, a different team then that of the anime. whereas the GL movies are made iirc by the same team as the anime. plus with it condesning the show int oa two hour legnth, many stuff is implied to have happened rather than shown.

Yeah, it's a spinoff. We don't use spinoffs for composite. And Super's manga isn't very different from STTLG movie, Toyataro himself works on the anime and gives input. Both Super manga and anime use each other for reference, as we have read in tha articles

 

[Antvasima]

No tier upgrade/downgrade necessary, all of those were discussed thoroughly in previous thread. This is simply about STTLG not having abilities which are listed on the profile, as the SGGL in the movie did not show any of those abilities. Since the movie is non canon and we do not use spinoffs to make composite profiles, it should be removed. We do not have hakai on Goku's profile from Super manga.

Okay. Thank you. That simplifies the issue considerably. I agree with this proposal.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Since SGGL in the movie did not display any abilities that involve attacking different points in Space-Time, it would make sense for STTGL to not have this ability as well.

My only concern here is that the SGGL in the movie version could be the same version as the one in the anime, although this argument is mostly baseless.

Agreed with Joseph and Antvasima.

 

[Antvasima]

So, should I temporarily unlock the page so Joseph can remove the ability, or was that already taken care of?

 

[Lina_Shields]

• Able to attack through time, 4D-Omnipresential Attack

These abilities located on the Powers and Abilities section should be removed, based on what was discussed in this thread.

Would you like me to remove these abilities from STTGL's profile?

 

[BowserRulesAll]

So, should I temporarily unlock the page so Joseph can remove the ability, or was that already taken care of?

4-D Omnipresential Attack is still there, so i guess the page should be unlocked and the ability removed.

 

[Lina_Shields]

• Able to attack through time, 4D-Omnipresential Attack

These abilities have been removed from STTGL's profile, as STTGL has shown no instance of attacking directly through a different point in time.

EDIT: I am unsure about this ability though.

• "BFR (Can send the opponent to the end of time)"

Has STTGL and its previous forms done anything similar to this?

 

[BowserRulesAll]

Good to hear. But i gotta ask again, what about Gurren Lagann? I mean, you yourself stated Super Granzeboma was unable to destroy Gurren lagann in a thread mentioned above, which sadly enough got brushed over, focussing on the other mecha's.

 

[Lina_Shields]

I have not seen anything regarding Gurren Lagann [movie version] being able to attack at different points in space-time.

Considering that SGGL [movie version] did not display any abilities that involve attacking through different points in space-time, there is no reason for Gurren Lagaan to have this ability.

 

[BowserRulesAll]

No no no, i mean High 3-A Gurren lagann, because it destroyed the Super Granzeboma's Giga Drill Break after it destroyed that of STTGL, TTGL, SGGL and AGL with minor difficulty. Now i'm well aware that this is a movie-only feat, so i suggested another key for Lagann-hen.

Another thing to note is how DarkLK acknowledged it, saying "Gurren Lagann > STTGL > TTGL > SGGL > AGL"

EDIT: Arc-Gurren Lagann has BFR, also known as Space Time Shattering Burst Spinning Punch

 

[Lina_Shields]

Going by the above statement, Gurren Lagann's AP would be changed to

• At least High 6-A, At least Low 2-C at its peak (Managed to break down Super Granzeboma in their clash whereas its previous forms were broken down by it)

 

[BowserRulesAll]

Sounds fine by me, thanks!

 

[Lina_Shields]

Perhaps some more community input is needed before making this change...

Otherwise, the changes will be applied tomorrow morning.

 

[Kaltias]

I'm fine with At least Low 2-C Gurren Lagann as well

 

[Joseph619]

EDIT: I am unsure about this ability though.

• "BFR (Can send the opponent to the end of time)"

Has STTGL and its previous forms done anything similar to this?

No, I don't remember any line where it's stated to send the oponent to end of time. It should be removed as well

 

[Lina_Shields]

Acknowledged. I will remove it from STTGL's profile, although are there any other forms that share this ability?

 

[Joseph619]

I don't think so, you can remove these abilities from Simon's profile as well

 

[DaFritzi]

This ability was actually used by arc gurren lagann in the form of the space-time shattering spinning punch. It was used against the giant muganns during the fight in space.

Leerons statement was: "It shattered space-time and sent the opponent to the far end of the spacetime continuum"

As such the ability is in opinion justified, it might need a better wording though.

This attack occurs in anime and movie. Thus time manipulation for STTGL is confirmed whether or not we consider SGGLs attacks.

 

[Joseph619]

Far end of space time continuum isn't the same as end if time though. It most likely meant edge of the universe (Beerus also said simething similar in Dragon Ball Super episode 4). End of time means sending opponent to Big Crunch when the universe collapses, very different from end of space-time continuum (which is a term for the universe)

 

[Joseph619]

Anyway, there needs to be concrete evidence of sending opponent to Big Crunch, otherwise it's just flowery wording.

 

[Antvasima]

So, given that the topic has been handled, should we close this thread?

 

[DaFritzi]

"Far end of space" would be moving the opponent to a far away point in the universe. Explicitly mentioning spacetime means in my opinion that a transportation of the enemy through space and time has occurred.

Also the depiction of the "end of the spacetime continuum" certainly does not look like just somewhere in the universe.

Also it is worth mentioning that passing through that hole instantly destroyed the mugann, which is another indicator for it not being simply a different place in space.

@Ant Please don't close it for now.

 

[Kaltias]

@Ant there are still the issues about the BFR and the possible Low 2-C tier for the Gurren Lagann

 

[Joseph619]

That looks like flowery wording to me. Mugann being destroyed doesn't prove that is the end of time, it's could jsut be the impact of hitting dimensional barrier. Probably just another flowery term for dimensional BFR.

 

[Joseph619]

The BFR feat happens in episode 22, around 11:05

 

[DaFritzi]

About SGGLs abilities for STTGL. I would strongly prefer a composite profile for STTGL listing all abilities even those only used in the anime. That is because all of our Gurren Lagann profiles are composite. Removing this ability simply because it didn't happen in secondary canon is not necessary in my opinion and could also confuse people browsing through the pages. However if the majority insists on removing it then I can hardly prevent it.

Also input on the spacetime shattering punch would be appreciated.

The breaking of Granzebomas Drill might have only been possible by the earlier forms weaking it. Nonetheless a new key for EoS Gurren Lagann with a Low 2-C Tier seems reasonable for me, as the power of the mech depends on the spiral power of the pilot, which in Simons case was definitely that level.

 

[DaFritzi]

I consider the changes in several profiles removing the 4D-omnipresent attack (coming from SGGL) as problematic. There are multiple indicators implying that it's temporal range is infinite. Nonetheless the actual temporal range of the attack used against the Ashtanga cannot be quantified (no units were used when defining the range).

Gurren Lagann wikia lists this attack as "capable of hitting a target regardless of their locality or temporality in the universe". In the series the ashtanga are described of capable as moving up and down the timeline (with no limitations mentioned). Lordgenome tracking them and defining the range in which they move does certainly not indicate the limit of the attack.

Since the actual capability of the attack seems to be infinite, but cannot be definitely defined I would suggest changing it to: Time Manipulation (Able to make holes in Space-Time to attack near past and future simultaneously, possibly/likely 4D-omnipresent attack)

For BFR I would suggest: BFR (Capable of shattering spacetime and sending the enemy to a different spacial and temporal location), as well as a more detailed explanation considering the possible location in the techniques section.

 

[Golden_Void]

Yeah, what I said about the omnipresent attack was mostly ignored

Also, I don't see how sending your opponent to the far end of the space-time continuum is flowery language. IMO that would have to be spelled out to be made any more clear.

 

[BowserRulesAll]

Oh yeah, shouldn't Kittan be upgraded? Because according to his page, he's on the same level as Arc-Gurren Lagann, which is 5-A, while he's listed as High 6-A.

 

[DaFritzi]

A second revision checking the tiering of Gurren Laganns other characters will follow after this here is concluded.

 

[Joseph619]

@DaFritzi: If all profiles are composite then we have to fix it. The wiki doesn't use spinoffs for composite profile, recently Goku's content revision thread to include hakai was rejected. The gurren lagann profiles were in very poor state earlier, so keeping them same to make so that visitor's don't find it confusing isn't justifiable. What can be fixed, should be fixed

Also there's no scan of temporal range being infinite iirc, only 1 instance where it says 'near far and near future'. The attacks launched randomy hit the target because of probability manipulation, not infinite temporal range

 

[Joseph619]

Anyway, I would preferably have more staff input here, I am very exhausted and probably won't be able to comment here until Sunday. I am laid out most of my points, and hopefully Lina Shields will do what he thinks is the best after judging.

 

[Golden_Void]

SGGL doesn't have probability manipulation.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Joseph619 regarding that we should usually not have composite profiles.

 

[DaFritzi]

@Joseph Making the profiles composite was accepted during our last revision (especially because of AS and Simon)

Also using spinoffs for composite profiles is very well accepted in the wiki from what I know. Gokus profile has always been a canon only profile, thus spinoffs are rejected.

We just have to decide whether the gurren lagann profiles should be composite or not. In case we decide them not to be composite we would have to make new keys/pages for Simon/Anti-Spiral/SGGL/TTGL. In case we make the profiles composite, we should make all profiles composite, thus adding SGGLs anime abilities to STTGLs profile. Should we decide to split into anime and movie then we should keep the ability removed.

Also using my arguments from before: "possibly/likely 4D-omnipresent attack" is definitely justified in my opinion. The "possibly" remark exist for exactly this kind of situation as such it should be used here.

EDIT: Both powerlisting wikia and gurren lagann wikia list SGGLs attack as capable of attacking an opponent regardless of their spacial and temporal locality.

@Ant In that case we might prefer seperating movie and anime altogether.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, given that I am very overworked, I personally prefer a solution that is less complicated and not not demand as much work.

What do you think Kaltias? You are better informed about this than I am.