Super Smash Bros. revision

[DatOneWeeb]

If you want, you can take Diagla being time itself to be a part of this, I guess.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

All those spirits are shown to be coming from the same spot. Which is heavily implied to be the part of the ocean Galeem and Dharkon’s body fell into.

Nope, I don't see it coming out of either. That is your own headcanon.



I really don't wanna have to repeat myself Keeweed again, I think the reasons for the cast scaling via spirits are simple. They lost without an amp, they gain tons of new amps, now they win. Bad endings don't hold priority over true endings, they're still secondary canons at best. There's also the fact the only way these endings even happen is if you defeat either one of them, Galeem nor Dharkon can kill each other as they're roughly equal.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Here's my typed up response for how Low 2-C can be typed out for Master Hand.

Attack Potency: At least Universe level+ (Created various stages in the imaginary world, which were described as separate universes. Comparable, if not superior to Diagla who's birth caused the concept of time to flow, and Arceus who created the world by birth)

 

[Keeweed]

The cast scaling via spirits isn’t simple when Galeem has more spirits then everyone else, is the whole reason the spirits are things in the first place because he killed all of them combined plus the fighters, and is still shown to be able to one shot them when he isn’t stuck fighting Dharkon.

Galeem is shown to have a crap ton of spirits at the beginning of the game so he should still have them at the end. Considering as soon as he dies thousands of them all start to come out at same spot since they are shown to be all together they should be the spirits Galeem had.

I know the game wants to say you can win with the spirits but it shoot that in the foot at the very beginning of the game because Galeem is immediately shown to be stronger than the fighters and spirits combined, and it also shoots it at the end of the game because Galeem has more spirits than everyone.

The amp from spirits is completely irrelevant because Galeem is shown immediately to be better than the fighters and the things that amp the very second he showed up. Adding the power of something to someone else doesn’t help if both that person and the amp are killed together by a single attack 5 seconds earlier.

We never see how the fighters won in the good ending and the bad ending has Galeem and Dharkon completely obliterate everyone. If the creators of the game thought the fighters were comparable they wouldn’t have the bad ending be such a hilariously large stomp. He killed them worse than he did at the beginning of the game, why would they have the bad ending go that way if they didn’t think Dharkon or Galeem could actually still do that?

 

[DatOneWeeb]

The cast scaling via spirits isn’t simple when Galeem has more spirits then everyone else, is the whole reason the spirits all things in the first place because he killed all of them combined plus the fighters, and is still shown to be able to one shot them when he isn’t stuck fighting Dharkon.

That's contradicted by intro displaying Galeem putting every spirit into a fake copy of the fighters and is further backed up when he never see the spirits come out of Galeem when dying.

I know the game wants to say you can win with the spirits but it shoot that in the foot at the very beginning of the game because Galeem is immediately shown to be stronger than the fighters and spirits combined, and it also shoots it at the end of the game because Galeem has more spirits than everyone.

There's massive difference you just listed. Defeating the cast and the spirits isn't the same as fighting them amped with spirits. Because combining people's powers is greater than fighting them solo. Take it like Goku and Vegeta getting stomped by Buuhan on their own, but when they combine power via fusion, they win. This is basically that, in which the fighters combine their own strength with spirits. Ad stop making your headcanon on that last part, it's been proven false on both endings.

The amp from spirits is completely irrelevant because Galeem is shown immediately to be better than the fighters and the things that amp the very second he showed up. Adding the power of something to someone else doesn’t help if both that person and the amp are killed together by a single attack 5 seconds earlier.

Repeating argument, read above.

We never see how the fighters won in the good ending and the bad ending has Galeem and Dharkon completely obliterate everyone. If the creators of the game thought the fighters were comparable they wouldn’t have the bad ending be such a hilariously large stomp. He killed them worse than he did at the beginning of the game, why would they have the bad ending go that way if they didn’t think Dharkon or Galeem could actually still do that?

Stop. We know how they win in the true ending, come on we literally play it. Stop using bad ending as a priority when it's a secondary canon. Don't use your own interpretation of why a bad ending exists when it was shown in a true ending that they won, why are you ignoring the ending where they win? This isn't even the first time you beat Galeem and Dharkon, you fight both of them individually prior to the final battle and they still win.

 

[Keeweed]

“Because combining people's powers is greater than fighting them solo. Take it like Goku and Vegeta getting stomped by Buuhan on their own, but when they combine power via fusion, they win. This is basically that, in which the fighters combine their own strength with spirits. Ad stop making your headcanon on that last part, it's been proven false on both endings.”

Galeem didn’t fight them solo, he one shot both with a single attack. Dragon Ball is also a bad example because it states and consistently shows that the fusion is a massive multiplier. Smash bros never states this and shows otherwise in the other endings.

I edited the other comment to explain why I think the spirits come from Galeem: Galeem is shown to have a crap ton of spirits at the beginning of the game so he should still have them at the end. Considering as soon as he dies thousands of them all start to come out at same spot since they are shown to be all together they should be the spirits Galeem had.

Galeem and Dharkon are shown after they ‘lost’ to be perfectly fine and to be fighting each other like nothing happened. I’m pretty sure Galeem just ran away because Dharkon showed up and after you fight Dharkon they both decide to use you to determine who will win their battle. Since you can defeat their spirits weakening them, but they are still shown to be able to immediately kill you whenever they want.

In the finally battle we see Galeem and Dharkon repeatedly attack each other and all of their attacks hit each other. Since they both want to kill each other and they are shown in the other endings to curpstomp literally everyone I believe it is much more likely the fighters got them to kill themselves rather than actually winning.

When you defeat Galeem in the halfway point of the game, in the game his light literally explodes, yet that didn’t happen in the cutscene. The gameplay is heavily disconnected from the cutscenes and the cutscenes have Galeem and Dharkon kill you either with no effort or by literally standing there. I get why people would say they scale but I think the game is way to contradictory on whether Galeem and Dharkon absolutely destroy you or not and since Galeem is shown to be better and I believe has the reasons the fighters are supposed to be better, I just don’t see the fighters scaling

Though after the recent discussion about the low 2-C feat I guess it does matter too much (It still matters since the Fighters would be hundreds of times higher on the tier, but low 2-C’s top is literally beyond infinite so meh). I personally disagree with spirits scaling but this conversation is clearly going in circles and it truly comes down to whether Galeem killing everyone is plot convenience or if the fighters winning is plot convenience; which would probably result in a possibly low 2-C at the very worst anyways so they would literally have the same tier just under different wording.

Note I still personally disagree, but I have two to three other CTRs I want to make right now, it is very late at night, and I’ve had to do two exams, a test, three weeks worth of math homework, and a essay this week, so I’m very tired, annoyed, feel like I’ve been coming off as an ass, and just don’t think this conversation is even going anywhere anyways. So I‘ll see you later. Sorry for any inconveniences. I still wanted to get my opinion out there so I’m somewhat glad with having commented, but I sorry if I made anyone annoyed or upset. (Also sorry if any of that comes off as rude or wrong. I’ve had a terrible week and just want it to be over).

 

[Eficiente]

Here's my typed up response for how Low 2-C can be typed out for Master Hand.

Attack Potency: At least Universe level+ (Created various stages in the imaginary world, which were described as separate universes. Comparable, if not superior to Diagla who's birth caused the concept of time to flow, and Arceus who created the world by birth)

We don't know the size of those stages, the first and third link talk about the places from which the characters come from, which can be different from the stages MH made. When MH throws Mario in a desk and creates Peach's castle there that Mario already had experience doing stuff in Peach's castle, that Mario already had experience doing stuff in his universe, so it's not sensical for MH to create his universe yet again, whereas creating a part of it to mess around with Mario makes perfect sense. The second link just says "areas from the Nintendo universe", people would laugh if we pretend that to be evidende. If I go to a void and create a planet Earth there with the same stuff going on inside then that is an area from my universe. I see no reason for MH to be comparable to Dialga but I'll go over all that later after dealing with this.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Galeem didn’t fight them solo, he one shot both with a single attack. Dragon Ball is also a bad example because it states and consistently shows that the fusion is a massive multiplier. Smash bros never states this and shows otherwise in the other endings.

Good job on missing the point, a multiplier isn't only needed alone, added strength is still better. You're adding the strength of several spirits into one fighter, that's completely better than one-shotting them indiviually.

I edited the other comment to explain why I think the spirits come from Galeem: Galeem is shown to have a crap ton of spirits at the beginning of the game so he should still have them at the end. Considering as soon as he dies thousands of them all start to come out at same spot since they are shown to be all together they should be the spirits Galeem had.

Uh, where? All we see is spirits flying around inside the copies, not once do we see Galeem with them. "The, Galeem forced the captive spirits to pull the puppets' strings." "Can anyone free the spirits from Galeem's control." These quotes right here state that Galeem put every spirit into clones, so no, he does NOT have any with him. And did you also forget on TOP of the bad endings and quotes disproving they do not have spirits with them, that the fighters are literally in the same spot as to where they are at, right? You literally fight them at their location. So again, no.

Galeem and Dharkon are shown after they ‘lost’ to be perfectly fine and to be fighting each other like nothing happened. I’m pretty sure Galeem just ran away because Dharkon showed up and after you fight Dharkon they both decide to use you to determine who will win their battle. Since you can defeat their spirits weakening them, but they are still shown to be able to immediately kill you whenever they want.

"Galeem and Dharkon are shown after they ‘lost’ to be perfectly fine" This looks "perfectly fine" to you? Yeah, no. We see him blow up, that's blatant indication of Galeem/Dharkon being defeated. You beat twice each, come on. Nothing even implies you "weakened" their spirits, that's more headcanon on you.

In the finally battle we see Galeem and Dharkon repeatedly attack each other and all of their attacks hit each other. Since they both want to kill each other and they are shown in the other endings to curpstomp literally everyone I believe it is much more likely the fighters got them to kill themselves rather than actually winning.

Untrue, they do harm each other, but your fighters are the ones doing a majority of the attacks and more damage. You realize it would take far longer to let them kill each other than for you to just attack them.

When you defeat Galeem in the halfway point of the game, in the game his light literally explodes, yet that didn’t happen in the cutscene. The gameplay is heavily disconnected from the cutscenes and the cutscenes have Galeem and Dharkon kill you either with no effort or by literally standing there. I get why people would say they scale but I think the game is way to contradictory on whether Galeem and Dharkon absolutely destroy you or not and since Galeem is shown to be better and I believe has the reasons the fighters are supposed to be better, I just don’t see the fighters scaling

??? Is this not exploding to you, what? I'm seriously getting tired, you're desperately grasping for straws. The gameplay literally displays how they win, and how both enemies are defeated. Because once again, the first two boss fights already display the fighters win, and the true ending shows them winning again. They do scale with spirits.

 

[Keeweed]

I don’t want to continue arguing, but I do want to clear some of my thoughts up before I truly go.

When I said Galeem’s light explodes. I mean his light center is completely obliterated only to be back two seconds later.

Saying Galeem can one shot everybody isn’t grasping at straws because he is clearly shown doing that, it just matters if you view that has plot convenience or if the fighters winning as plot convenience.

When Galeem and Dharkon do there attack animations specifically meant to be hitting the other boss they do vastly more than the fighters ever can. And your character being able to do damage can be a gameplay mechanic. I remember in a Neptunia game you could straight up one shot a boss, only for the cutscene to say your character did zero damage and the boss instant kills you, same thing happens in Astral Chain.

Gameplay can mean literally nothing to the story and since the fighters in the cutscenes are constantly shown to be barely visible to Galeem and Dharkon and they both want to kill each other. I think it is safer to say they just killed each other.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

We don't know the size of those stages, the first and third link talk about the places from which the characters come from, which can be different from the stages MH made.

Second link refers to the stages as the universe. Considering how each character seems to have their own life, we can take that as Master Hand creating said character's universe. Each series stage however should be connected.

When MH throws Mario in a desk and creates Peach's castle there that Mario already had experience doing stuff in Peach's castle, that Mario already had experience doing stuff in his universe, so it's not sensical for MH to create his universe yet again, whereas creating a part of it to mess around with Mario makes perfect sense.

Not exactly, it seems like a bigger assumption (occam's razor) that MH would only be creating a part of the world over all of it. What Master Hand created is all in the world of imagination, which is where fighters live in the first place.

The second link just says "areas from the Nintendo universe", people would laugh if we pretend that to be evidende. If I go to a void and create a planet Earth there with the same stuff going on inside then that is an area from my universe.

"The various arenas from the Nintendo universe" means... the stages are taking place in a universe. Your example assumes that this is just a completely different universe and not at all the original. Which makes no sense seeing as they specifically live where Master Hand creates, unless we assume that their worlds just so happen to already exist.

I see no reason for MH to be comparable to Dialga but I'll go over all that later after dealing with this.

Simple. The fighters take hits from Diagla, MH harms them, easy scaling.

 

[Eficiente]

You have many huge false things there

Considering how each character seems to have their own life, we can take that as Master Hand creating said character's universe.

This proves the opposite, they already had a life, feats and stuff before MH did that, hence it fits to say he didn't make their universe. You are the one connecting one thing with another there.

it seems like a bigger assumption (occam's razor) that MH would only be creating a part of the world over all of it.

Smaller is more likely, but this goes over the next thing.

What Master Hand created is all in the world of imagination, which is where fighters live in the first place.

Once again, you're the one connecting one thing with another there. We know they're fighters in the world of imagination and the place has been referenced, traveled to in FD, and with MH being nothing but mysteriously related to that world and reality, so if anything that is a place that's always there. Nothing points to MH having made it. It only fits to the idea of him having made a universe.

We know the world of imagination is a thing and that MH has created some stages, but you're the one saying he created the whole universe.

"The various arenas from the Nintendo universe" means... the stages are taking place in a universe.

On top of what I said before, nothing really proves all stages were made by MH, there may just be other parts of the world of imagination. In Subspace E. of Brawl and World of Light they apparently could even be in reality without turning into toys, so that's more places where they can be that MH didn't make.

 

[The_Smashor]

So then, the new trailer dropped. Without spoiling anything, the new character literally one shot Galeem, and other characters fought them in that same trailer (Not just gameplay, but CGI as well). Their final smash will also likely be a huge step above the average fighter's AP so far (Although we technically haven't seen it yet).

 

[Daddybrawl]

This isn’t the place I believe. Different discussion, different topic. Galeem being one-shot has nothing to do with the 2-C evaluation.

 

[Bobsican]

So... anyone supports the idea of reintroducing pages such as Mario (Smash Bros) into the site?
They've become way too different from the "main canon" variant to be worth indexing as their own thing. Stickers, Spirits and their physiology are the most notable things that render them unique enought to be indexed, making the current reasoning over why they're not allowed per the crossover rules outdated (It may have always been, but no one argued for Smash Kirby to stay back then).

 

[SamanPatou]

I support it, they are different enough.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the summarised conclusions so far here?

 

[00potato]

I can agree to adding back the Smash Profiles, considering spirits and items.

 

[SamanPatou]

What are the summarised conclusions so far here?

There isn't a conclusion, it's the same debate about how the cosmology works and how or if it is correct to scale the Hands and the creation trio between each other and if MH actually created or not the Smash universe and if it scales.
On top of that, there's a general disagreement on how spirits work and whether scaling or not the fighters to Galeem and Dharkon.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks for the explanation.

I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion. Alternately, a staff member can use the @Username notification system.

 

[Keeweed]

1) Sephiroth one shooting Galeem even in the trailer is an outlier. Galeem is shown to have beaten cloud along with everyone else, yet cloud beats Sephiroth at the end of the trailer (Edit 2: Cloud was part of the group that got stomped by Galeem, he’s just shown near the end (of the first scene), I knew I saw him in that group of people).

2) It’s a non canon trailer, unless smash bros Sonic can just punch people into Minecraft unironically.

3) It goes completely against the games events since Galeem didn’t even meet Sephiroth in the actual story.

 

[SamanPatou]

Please move the thing to the discussion thread, because that's where we were talking about it.

 

[Eficiente]

For how much time will this be stonewalled and derailed before any edits may be done? We can at least put the god-tiers at Unknown by removing the wrong reasonsings they have, and then after that other users should, if needed to, wait their months to handle the matter properly.

Assuming people can't debate the matter now in a reasonable period of time, which if they can, I'm always listening.

 

[The_Smashor]

Alright, what's the argument that the top tiers aren't Low 2-C? Fighters with spirits should frankly scale to Dialga since the Dialga Spirit exists. Meanwhile, Master Hand and Crazy Hand can fight fighters with spirits. Also, Dialga is a stage hazard. Master Hand is implied to have created the stages in 64's intro, meaning they very possibly created Smash!Dialga. But even if they didn't create Samsh!Dialga, I feel like the final boss of a game should be considered above literal stage hazards.

Also, there's the whole, spoilers for the next character, Sephiroth one shotting Galeem thing. So obviously the Fighters not scaling to Final Bosses myth is long gone. It was iffy before, and Sephiroth outright one shotting one is the nail in it's coffin. Now, Sephiroth was shown to be decently above the rest of the cast (He one shot Galeem when fighters take a long time to kill him), but someone like Cloud is at least able to annoy him, and multiple fighters survived casual attacks from him.

Galeem is definitively 3-A. There's no doubt about that. They literally destroyed the universe, it's directly stated, open and shut.

As I see it, this can end in two ways:

1. Master Hand scales above Dialga and everyone, including the fighters, are varying degrees of Low 2-C.

2. Everyone downscales from Galeem and Sephiroth (Despite the fact you can literally use Dialga's spirit to fight Galeem and Master Hand, but you seem like the type to ignore that or call it an "Outlier" or something). As such, everyone is 3-A. Galeem would downscale from his own strongest attack, since it shouldn't be absurdly above whatever else they're capable of. Galeem had to absorb their Master Hand army to use the attack, but they also had to create the army to begin with so it's not like it's immeasurably beyond Galeem's average power, it's just Galeem's peak. One could argue that the downscaling is enough to be 3-B, but they're still tier 3.

There's literally not a reasonable interpretation that puts the characters into an unknown tier unless we just say "**** it" and stop powerscaling. I agree that some of the feats we have for characters are absurd, wrong and headcanon; but that doesn't mean they're not at that tier. Just because a stupid person agrees with you in an argument doesn't make the argument less logically valid. Just because our current reasoning for characters being at a tier is wrong doesn't mean they aren't at that tier.

 

[Eficiente]

Alright, what's the argument that the top tiers aren't Low 2-C?

Well, read the arguments before would be faster than me rewriting them and rechecking them just to not miss anything, so

Fighters with spirits should frankly scale to Dialga since the Dialga Spirit exists. Meanwhile, Master Hand and Crazy Hand can fight fighters with spirits.

Evidence that the power a spirit gives is = to the power the character/s they belong to?

Also, Dialga is a stage hazard.

So are many more weaker hazards, Dialga being one is the perfect ex. of an outlier is given how out of line it is with the much more numerous and infinitely weaker hazards.

Master Hand is implied to have created the stages in 64's intro, meaning they very possibly created Smash!Dialga.

This doesn't hold any water at all, if someone creates a house and the people inside they didn't very possibly create all other houses with their people inside. MH giving life to 2 characters in the world of imagination there is a cool thing he can do but all the characters already have life there, having also had their lives and experiences before it. Remember the Subspace Emissary and World of Light? The cast and more beings are already doing stuff without MH, if Mario and Kirby can go and nuke it out without MH giving them life then (rhetorical question) why should we claim MH made as many stages and characters fighting as including the stage where Dialga? We shouldn't.

Please do think about it, MH made a stage, maybe 2, why woud we jump from that to making all stages period? With what face are we ok claiming that nonsense?

But even if they didn't create Samsh!Dialga, I feel like the final boss of a game should be considered above literal stage hazards.

Well, I can picture you writing something like that in profiles since you feel like it, but that doesn't make sense. You need to prove why this character is above all stage hazards, you didn't, and so you have no basis to feel like it should be considered above. If anything it would seem to me that simply wanting the character to be considered above stage hazards is the basis here, and with that lack of logic I can't point out other points against as I've done before, the new character would add nicely to them.

Also, there's the whole, spoilers for the next character, Sephiroth one shotting Galeem thing. So obviously the Fighters not scaling to Final Bosses myth is long gone. It was iffy before, and Sephiroth outright one shotting one is the nail in it's coffin. Now, Sephiroth was shown to be decently above the rest of the cast (He one shot Galeem when fighters take a long time to kill him), but someone like Cloud is at least able to annoy him, and multiple fighters survived casual attacks from him.

This feel very, very bias to for you to say to me. Let's recap the trailer

• Characters are blown back and who knows how many of them (maybe most) are already defeated in the backgroud due to...what? Galeem and the army of MHs miles away from them doing nothing?Ok, the cast looks kinda below them.
• Galeem is about to once more use his rays of light to one-shot everyone, making them look below him, if granted the attack is hax.
• Sephy one-shots Galeem whereas groups of the cast need a long fight to defeat him, 3 characters in the cast gasp. Still looking pretty below this people.
• Sephy has gameplay stuff with things making him look as if he could cut stages and fight many fighters at once, which he can't, but the trailer portrays that way, making the rest look ever more below him.
• Following the other cinematic Sephy seems to have defeated the remaining army of the cast he threatened before, one-shots 2 characters without killing him and get this sh*t; attacks Mario, Mario is terrufied, but it turns out Sephy was just toying around, it can thus be assumed that he can playing with the other 2 characters he one-shotted before and just in general, not that they scale to him, that's legit bias.
• FF7 wise, Sephy is known for holding back for what I have heard, so
• Cloud is comparable to Sethy as of this trailer and especially with his new Final Smash.

So no. If anything I would imagine less than this needs to be said to make the point clear, but I don't even know anymore.

Galeem is definitively 3-A. There's no doubt about that. They literally destroyed the universe, it's directly stated, open and shut.

Y

There's literally not a reasonable interpretation that puts the characters into an unknown tier unless we just say "**** it" and stop powerscaling. I agree that some of the feats we have for characters are absurd, wrong and headcanon; but that doesn't mean they're not at that tier. Just because a stupid person agrees with you in an argument doesn't make the argument less logically valid. Just because our current reasoning for characters being at a tier is wrong doesn't mean they aren't at that tier.

Aside from the stuff said before this remark doesn't make any sense if you wrote that what were the arguments expecting them to exist, it's kinda bias to already dismiss and diminish things to "just say "**** it" and stop powerscaling", it doesn't make me think I'm talking to someone with a fair point of view on the matter but someone who unconsciously wants the masses to know what is just off.

 

[Keeweed]

“Just because a stupid person agrees with you in an argument”

Who are you referring to with this comment. I feel like you are referring to me, but even if you aren’t that’s a rude thing to say to anyone. I feel like I’ve come off way too aggressive on these threads, but I’ve never insulted anyone and I’ve tired to apologize.

I just want to say I find our smash profile very wanked, even in their current states so there is a reason I’m really passionate in these threads. It takes characters strongest attacks to cause 9-A consistently throughout every stage with stage destruction, and 9-A explosion either cause massive damage or straight up one shot many of the characters, so these characters being high 7-A and especially low 2-C comes off as a massive outlier. Sephiroth feat comes from a trailer (which last I checked are auto assumed to be non canon by default), and completely contradicts the events of the game, so it can’t even be used anyways.

Where do people keep getting Galeem absorbing the MHs from. In his ending we can see him shooting both the MHs and everyone else with his attack. He definitely isn’t absorbing the MHs for this attack.

People argued that you stomp Galeem’s clones earlier. I have replayed through world of light and I can easily say you don’t get anywhere close to stomping them, literally the other way around. Many of the challenges in WoL rag doll you like a tumbleweed in the wind. Galeem is shown to be able to one shot everyone at the end of the game, has more of spirits which would be the only justification for the smashers being able to win, is shown to gain power from spirits since when you defeat either the light or dark spirits at the last section of the game Galeem or Dharkon get weaker and start losing to the other.

There is about 10 9-A feats throughout ultimate and they all take a crap ton of effort, while Galeem instantly kills everyone in the entire universe combined for his 3-A feat. It obviously is jarring to have a boss be that hilariously above everyone else in the cast, but the cast doesn’t have any reason to scale to Galeem and have nearly a dozen to over a dozen anti feats.

 

[Eficiente]

Who said that?

 

[Keeweed]

Actually I just reread that part of the comment. I see I read it wrong (it is 12 am where I live). I’m going to get some sleep and I’ll be back tomorrow.

Sorry for that outburst, I feel like an idiot (or maybe I did read it right and now I think I read it wrong. Eh)

Edit: Just want to say I proof read the 9-A part of comment, that is my personal opinion on the smash profiles because there are a ton of 9-A feats in Smash and they do a shit ton of damage consistently, vs the bosses who throughout the series constantly stomp you. I know people say the heroes are supposed to comeback from the stomp and win, but literally none of the smash games give a proper reason as to why the fighters can suddenly win. And when they do, like in ultimate, they immediately give Galeem the thing the fighters where supposed to use to win (Galeem has spirits and a crap ton more of them then the smashers), so it immediately goes back to being an outlier for the smashers again.

 

[Eficiente]

Well, please always copy texts you want to quote.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Yeah. I'll respond tomorrow, too many issues with the arguments.

 

[The_Smashor]

If Smash!Sephiroth is anything like his canon counterpart, it's very reasonable to assume he was basically toying with Cloud and everyone else. The whole "Almost impaling Mario but not" thing all but confirms that.

Also what do you mean "Y" about Galeem destroying the universe? The opening cutscene literally says "The universe was crushed in the hands of Galeem". Seems pretty blatant to me. One Master Hand is a fraction of that. Taking Marth's "We'll each need to take down about ten" statement literally, that means that Master Hand is either 1/760th baseline 3-A or 1/860th baseline 3-A depending on if you count DLC fighters, since Galeem needed to absorb that many Master Hands to do the feat. I didn't include Sephiroth or Hero since they very clearly weren't present in the battle until after World of Light began judging by their respective trailers. It could also be argued that Galeem's feat is above baseline 3-A since it reached Subspace, a place separate from the normal Smash universe, but there's no way to actually quantify that, espesially since we don't know Subspace's size. I'd say the rankings would be as such:

• Master and Crazy Hand: 3-B (0.00371710526 to 0.00328488372 TenaexaFoe, I don't know what the next lowest foe is though)
• Galeem and Dharkon: At least 3-B, 3-A at full power (They likely created most of the Master and Crazy hands in their army to begin with, meaning when they aren't spreading their power thin they would be 3-A. Their base power would be upscaling from the hands)
• Tabuu: At least 3-B (Upscaling from the hands, due to stomping Master Hand)
• Smash!Sephiroth: At least 3-B, higher with Final Smash or Spirits (One shot Galeem when it had it's Master Hands out, was very clearly toying with the cast even when they likely had Spirits. Final Smash is very clearly going to be Supernova, but he already scales above whatever that would be. And he likely did all this without Spirits)
• The rest of the cast: At least High 7-A, higher with Final Smash. Possibly 3-B with strongest Spirits (The fighters are able to battle Master and Crazy hand while using Spirits, as well as Galeem and Dharkon, Cloud was able to damage Sephiroth using his Final Smash to the point that Sephirtoh decided to use his own Final Smash)

 

[Eficiente]

Isn't that kinda redundant? If you're saying that they don't scale but that Cloud's Final Smash scales then yeah, idk if the cast had spirits there when they seemed below Galeem and the MHs in the trailer, seems like a very technical thing to look at and entirely based on what "we" claim here. If by "However, they were fighting them and didn't die" you mean that they should scale, as you're saying it in a page about indexing stats, then no.

As much as I would love a profile for Sephiroth in Smash I don't think that's going to happen, let alone Cloud, and even then this wouldn't be the thread for it, already talking about the cast scaling would be derailed if the god-tiers scaling wasn't involved.

 

[The_Smashor]

Cloud with Spirits' final smash. Also, the battle with Galeem where Sephiroth appears seems to be close to the midpoint of the campaign, meaning the fighters don't have their strongest spirits yet.

 

[Eficiente]

Cloud with Spirits' final smash.

It still sounds pretty fabricated to me, nothing confirms they were using them and they vary exponentially on what they do alone, let alone the lore the characters the spirits belong to. So why the heck would this one character need that to scale? It's just him and his final smash and that scales, we don't see more.

 

[The_Smashor]

Sephiroth's trailer shows the fighters battling against Galeem. The fight obviously isn't canon to WoL, since Galeem dies, but the most likely placement of the fight is at the end of the first part of the campaign. Characters would have spirits at that point.

If it really bothers you that much we can drop the whole spirits vs Sephiroth thing and just scale fighters with Spirits to the hands and eyes.

 

[Eficiente]

It doesn't show them battling Galeem, who is miles away going nothing with many MHs around, they may simply have been attacked by some MH/s, with the commander Galeem not having put much effort to it until he felt like one-shotting the universe again.

I don't think you read the arguments against the cast scaling to the god-tiers with spirits, hence you don't say things about it.

 

[SamanPatou]

I just want to say that Galeem reaching Brawl's world (as he captured even other Brawl enemies) is range, since every character comes from a different world (as stated by the game itself).
Sakurai also said in one of the directs that the continuity here is different from that of Brawl and in an interview or something has stated that Galeem would have reached Bayonetta even if she tried to escape in Purgatorio or Inferno (confirmed by the spirits of the inhabitabts of said places).
The feat itself is 3-A, but the range is 2-C

 

[Eficiente]

That part of the feat is not to be taken literally as it doesn't make sense, there is no such thing as Brawl's world. I already went over what Sakurai claimed and why it doesn't matter. It's deconcentrated to talk about range anyway.

 

[SamanPatou]

It was just to say that Galeem's feat isn't 2-C anyway

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Sakurai also said in one of the directs that the continuity here is different from that of Brawl

You have the statement or scan for this?

 

[SamanPatou]

I remembered it wrong, he says that in a different context, i.e. WoL is more about the gameplay than the story, that's why it's a completely different thing.
I used to remember he meant that in terms of continuity or similar, so nevermind.