Super Smash Bros. revision

[Daddybrawl]

I disagree with scaling to the bosses as well. When we literally watch Galeem and Darkhon destroy the entire roster, and then eachother, the ending really feels like pis ngl. Kirby had to run away just to not die, and at the end suddenly they can solo Galeem and Darkhon together? Doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.

 

[00potato]

How is the ending PIS? You didn’t have spirits then. The whole point of spirit node is to use the spirits, you use those to beat Galeem. They only scale with spirits, I don’t get how you can put the crux of the story as PIS when it is both consistent (you fight him multiple times.) but there is an in-story explanation that you are just ignoring.

 

[SamanPatou]

Well, it can be something similar to Tabuu's case.
They were able to defeated him all together only after his wings were destroyed.
In this case, the big oneshot attack might be something that Galeem and Dharkon can't use at will, but only in certain occasions, such as after absorbing the MH clones or as a finishing attack in their respective ending.
It would make sense for them to be defeated by the combined assault of the entire roster amped by spirits while unable to unleash their strongest attack, which is what they use to destroy all their enemies.

 

[00potato]

Well, it can be something similar to Tabuu's case.
They were able to defeated him all together only after his wings were destroyed.
In this case, the big oneshot attack might be something that Galeem and Dharkon can't use at will, but only in certain occasions, such as after absorbing the MH clones or as a finishing attack in their respective ending.
It would make sense for them to be defeated by the combined assault of the entire roster amped by spirits while unable to unleash their strongest attack, which is what they use to destroy all their enemies.

Is this just head canon or did this actually happen in a cutscene? I do agree with the big MH absorbing attack being far stronger then the rest though.

 

[SamanPatou]

What do you mean?
Regarding Tabuu, he kills all the fighters with his off waves and they are able to fight him only after Sonic destroys his wings, making the waves way less strong and efficent.
Galeem unleashes his barrage of rays only after absorbing the MH clones and in his bad ending, where the fighters kill only Dharkon, and the same happens if they kill only Galeem, leaving Dharkon able to cover the universe in darkness, killing everyone.
Galeem and Dharkon don't use those attacks in their fights, and this leads me to think that they can't use them at will, but only in specific occasions after gathering energy of something similar.
Otherwise it wouldn't make sense for them to be defeated two times each, since you defeate first Galeem, then Dharkon and at the end both.
They would just oneshot everyone the moment they step in to fight them.
Assuming that they are faced by all the characters available at that moment of the story, during the first battles with Galeem and Dharkon the fighters are even less than the total amount of them, and the same for the spirits they use to amp their strength.

 

[00potato]

I agreed with you on that point though. Not the assumption that everyone was their in the second fights with Galeem. I don’t think any cutscenes portray what happens so I think we only have gameplay to go off of.

 

[SamanPatou]

I mean, the entire plot of the game is that the characters unite in order to face a greater enemey, and that is also what happens in Brawl.
I don't think that 3-4 random characters alone went to fight the bosses while the other 70 stood by and watched.
It's just that the game can't give you control of 70+ characters.

 

[00potato]

I know but I don’t think we actually see that at all in any cutscenes so we cannot really assume that. I don’t see why the events of Brawl effect what happens here either; completely different scenario with plenty of different characters. I don’t even know if we can call Brawl canon to Ultimate besides the few brawl spirits.

 

[Daddybrawl]

It’s a crossover game, is there really Canon?

 

[00potato]

If there is a story there needs to be a canon of some sort. Even if the individual games lack continuity.

 

[SamanPatou]

Brawl isn't canon, Sakurai during a Nintendo direct said that Ultimate is a completely different story, although Brawl should still be an alternate reality, since Galeem turned Tabuu, Galleon e other enemies from the Subspace Emissary into spirits, and we know he can reach other realities with his rays.
I talked about Brawl because it's a similar scenario, with both a final boss possessing a oneshot attack and the characters united to face it.

 

[Keeweed]

The Fighters winning against Galeem and Dharkon being plot convenience is how I few it. Galeem starts the game one shooting literally everyone combined in the entire verse. The characters having spirits shouldn’t help because not only does Galeem also have spirits but he has more than the fighters do. Ignoring how he just one shot all those spirits combined at the beginning of the game; which is the whole reason they are spirits.

It wasn’t a one time use attack, he is constantly shown to use his light beams in combat in the cutscenes and the second Dharkon is even slightly weaker than him he immediately goes for universe crushing.

This also shoots the scaling in the foot and clearly shows its Dharkon and Galeem killing each other because if you only slightly weaken one of them the other one immediately proceeds to instant kill everyone combined including their rival.

 

[00potato]

You can literally fight then 1v1 after training spirits and such. I fail to see how you can write it off as illogical plot convinience. The one shot happens far earlier in the game. For most of out game profiles we separate early and late game, why would this be any different? The logical conclusion is that they have gotten stronger by the time they fight Galeem at the end; perhaps it was the result of all they have went through or perhaps spirts are more then the sum of their parts. It doesn’t really make sense to ignore the main plot of the game as illogical when it is mostly self-contained.

 

[Keeweed]

No Galeem’s ending has him also one shot you.

This means the spirits did literally nothing, because Galeem is still superior to literally everyone combined.

In the 1v1 fights it’s shown in the cutscene you truly did nothing to either of them and you just distracted so the other rival has an opportunity to kill them, they also instantly kill everyone else combined, so there is zero reason to scale with spirits either since even with the spirits Galeem still wipes the floor with literally everyone in the entire series combined.

 

[00potato]

That is the bad ending, of course you lose in the cutscene. Also it isn’t exactly a one shot since all of the endings are shown after some form of battle.

 

[Keeweed]

He doesn’t one shot Dharkon, but he absolutely one shots everyone (And Galeem/Dharkon still wreck each other each other it just isn’t a one shot). The fighters are not shown to be injured or tired (which points more to them distracting Dharkon since they apparently didn’t even break a sweat and Dharkon only starts to care when he sees Galeem’s attacks coming) and even if they were tired Galeem kills all of them, plus everyone else in the universe, all combined.

Bad endings have been used for scaling on this by many different characters and these bad endings show that Galeem and Dharkon are hilariously above literally everyone else combined and the only reason you win in the good ending is because Galeem and Dharkon take each other out.

edit: auto correct removed a n’t from my post, so if my post was contradictory that’s why.

 

[00potato]

That doesn’t change the fact that they couldn’t have been one shot since they were injured and tired, which wouldn’t make much sense if they would get insta-killed by every attack since in the final fight, they are in the middle of the conflict. This proves that they must have been fighting before hand, and so it cannot be called a one shot.
You can only get the good ending if you could do the 1v1 fights, which wouldn’t make much sense if you couldn’t actually fight Galeem and the other guy.
Will come back to this later today. Gotta go for a bit.

 

[Keeweed]

I’ve got an exam I have to do today so I’ll be back later to.

However them being worn out from a fight doesn’t effect Galeem’s one shot at all (ignoring how the cutscene doesn’t have either Dharkon or the fighters worn out and Dharkon is shown to only begin to worry when he noticed Galeem’s attacks are coming). Galeem completely obliterates everyone, this doesn’t even include just the fighters, it includes everyone else in the entire universe, and the fighters’ spirits.

 

[00potato]

But how can you call it a one shot then? One shot implies that you would only need one hit to kill them. Since the were injured and in the middle of the fight, the only stipulation you can get is that they all took a few hits and dished some out themselves.

It isn’t really a one shot if the clearly taken a few shots before hand.

 

[Keeweed]

Except they weren’t shown to take any hits before hand and the cutscene doesn’t show them as injuried or tired. And if they were worn down, Galeem literally kills all of them combined. You also keep ignoring that Galeem also kills everyone else in the universe, which includes the many more spirits and people that didn’t fight Galeem and thus weren’t worn down. Dharkon wasn’t even worn down in the that scene, he clearly reacts to Galeem’s attacks vastly differently from everyone else’s. When he see Galeem’s attacks coming he goes from perfectly calm to practically crapping himself.

The scene also is clearly meant to show that Galeem is superior to you. The fighters aren’t on their knees or even breathing heavily suggesting they weak and easy to kill, they stand up straight and have the same reaction Dharkon did to Galeem’s attack. I.E the ‘we are absolutely screwed face’ because Galeem is obliterating them all combined. Even if they were tired he kill all of them in one attack, so he is clearly superior to them individually and should be superior to them as a group because they clearly weren’t tired.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Actually, it seems more like an occurring theme that the Smash Cast seem to grow exponentially throughout the story and eventually defeat the final bosses that were able to otherwise solo and oneshot the rest of the cast before hand. There's no explanation in Brawl's case, but in Ultimate's case, Spirits amping is the reason.

 

[Keeweed]

Actually, it seems more like an occurring theme that the Smash Cast seem to grow exponentially throughout the story and eventually defeat the final bosses that were able to otherwise solo and oneshot the rest of the cast before hand. There's no explanation in Brawl's case, but in Ultimate's case, Spirits amping is the reason.

1) Galeem has more spirits than them and one shot everyone in the verse combined, including the spirits, so the fighters winning is massive Plot convenience.

2)
Galeem can still one shot literally everyone at the very end of the game too, so no the fighters didn’t get strong enough to fight Galeem. When Dharkon or Galeem is even slightly distracted the other one jumps on the chance and obliterates everyone else combined with a single attack.

 

[00potato]

That isn’t a one shot because that is in the ending, after the last battle.
That isn’t what one shot implies. It isn’t technically wrong but the implications are misleading, he didn’t just walk up to them and insta delete.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I disagree with scaling to the bosses as well. When we literally watch Galeem and Darkhon destroy the entire roster, and then eachother, the ending really feels like pis ngl. Kirby had to run away just to not die, and at the end suddenly they can solo Galeem and Darkhon together? Doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.

This was when literally none of them were amplified by spirits. No one is saying they scale to Galeem without spirits at all. That'd just make him stupidly higher into Low 2-C (he also absorbed like hundreds of Master Hands when doing that feat).

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Actually, it seems more like an occurring theme that the Smash Cast seem to grow exponentially throughout the story and eventually defeat the final bosses that were able to otherwise solo and oneshot the rest of the cast before hand. There's no explanation in Brawl's case, but in Ultimate's case, Spirits amping is the reason.

Oh yeah, I forgot Brawl did have those stickers, and Ultimate had an RPG mechanic were you gain abilities from a skill tree.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I'm not even sure it was ever stated Master Hand holds back a lot. Plus, Marth seemed confident each of the Smashers could take on 9 or 10 Master Hands individually; and it would be way out of character to boast about something trivial such as that.

It was people taking Master Hand's brawl trophy statement completely out of context.

Also if it's not obvious, I'm in agreement with Ploz, DDM, etc.

 

[Keeweed]

That isn’t a one shot because that is in the ending, after the last battle.
That isn’t what one shot implies. It isn’t technically wrong but the implications are misleading, he didn’t just walk up to them and insta delete.

In the cutscene none of the characters are even close to either Dharkon or Galeem. Nothing suggest they even fought in canon and none of the characters show any signs of tiredness or injury. You keep saying they were weakened but there is zero reason to say that. You also keep ignoring he one shots literally everybody.

This includes the people and spirits that didn’t fight so they 100% have no reason to be weakened.

Finally people keep saying they scale with spirits, but Galeem has more spirits than all the fighters combined.

Galeem also didn’t absorb the MHs during his final attack. The MH are shown dying with everyone else after Galeem fired.

“he didn’t just walk up to them and insta delet”

That’s literally exactly what he did.

 

[00potato]

What, are you seriously claiming the final boss fight before the ending just doesn’t happen canonically? You have to do that fight to get the ending how the hell is it non-canonical?

 

[Keeweed]

Because the cutscenes constantly show the fighters being thousands of miles away from both of them and the gameplay doesn’t match the location they are or the events. The gameplay has one fighter fight Dharkon or Galeem in the sky, but in the cutscene literally all the fighters are nowhere even close to them and the setting is completely different.

 

[00potato]

That is a small inconsistency. It doesn’t make the game non-canon to itself somehow.

 

[Keeweed]

Gameplay can be an inaccurate representation of a story. A lot of times it’s not since many games try to have the gameplay connect to the story, but in the ending of ultimate the cutscene and gameplay hilariously contradicts each other. In gameplay Galeem and Dharkon use a variety of different attacks, meanwhile in the cutscenes they always go for the same attack repeatedly and just instant kill everyone as fast as they can. In the game you slowly follow Galeem and Dharkon to space, in the cutscenes the characters are consistently barely even visible to either of them, in the game Galeem and Dharkon both explode upon death, only to cut to the cutscenes where they are perfectly fine.

We should be going off the cutscenes and the cutscenes have Galeem causally obliterated everyone in the verse combined.

edit: I need to do some school work. I’ll be back later.

 

[Lollipop_The_King]

in the game Galeem and Dharkon both explode upon death, only to cut to the cutscenes where they are perfectly fine.

Not acknowledging your other *** but that's untrue.

A burst of light/darkness erupts from them and they fall out of the screen.

 

[00potato]

It is a video-game. A fundamental part of the medium is the game itself, even for storytelling (for example even though all of those characters were previously turned into statues but in the end cutscenes, they are fine. By your logic we have no idea how that happens because we only see how they were saved in-game.) You can’t just ignore half of the source you are talking about when it suits you over small inconsistencies. Half of them don’t even exist.
Dharkon is clearly exploded and damaged before Galeem appears. It is just a variation of what happens in the death animation. Also King Loli explains it a bit better than you anyway and it makes more sense from a continuity standpoint.
The first cutscene of Galeem isn’t even applicable to the later ones because they lacked spirits and the later one was after a large fight.
So what they only use a few attacks in the cutscenes, do you want a full fight to be animated after you already went through the fight in-game. (I guess all powers in video games not shown in cutscenes aren’t canon by that logic.)

 

[Keeweed]

I really need to work, but I’ll say: when I said the bosses explode I mean they actually explode. Galeem’s light ball breaks open in game but after the first loss cutscene he is perfectly fine and in the ending cutscenes they are only mildly distracted. The ending cutscenes show they can show damage on both Dharkon and Galeem so if the fighters truly were hurting Galeem they would shown the damage. Instead they have the fighters be miles away.

 

[00potato]

But you can see the damage on Dharkon in the cutscene you linked, Galeem wasn’t present at that point so only the protagonists could have done it, which would have been during the fight.

 

[Keeweed]

When it comes to the ending cutscene while I can see why people do say the fighters did fight Galeem and Dharkon I think the scene is way to janky and poorly thought out to matter. It shows explosions around Dharkon or Galeem but we don’t see what caused those and the fighters are barely even visible from Dharkon and Galeem’s view. Both Dharkon and Galeem also proceed to absolutely demolish literally everyone a few seconds later. Though my next point is much more important and I’m fine keeping this first point as personal opinion.

When it comes to the spirits, the thing that gets me the most, Galeem one shot literally everyone in the entire verse combined. How does taking the power from a spirit and combining it with the fighters help when the spirits and fighters where both instantly obliterated by a single attack by Galeem. Galeem also has way more spirits then everyone else becomes you can at best get a few hundred of them throughout the game while thousands to millions of them leave Galeem when he dies. So the fighters scaling to Galeem through spirits makes no sense because Galeem has more spirits and already curpstomped the spirits and fighters simultaneously.

He’s also still shown to be able to curpstomp everyone at the end of the game just like the beginning of the game. This feels like a case of where the writer wants a character to be comparable to another, but constantly has the other character completely trash everyone. You can fight Dharkon or Galeem, but they can immediately one shot you into oblivion whenever they want. You have a reason why you can fight them, too bad Galeem has that times a million. All this means is that smash bros ultimates story is poorly written so what is more plot convenience, Galeem one shooting everyone, or the heroes winning. Considering how Galeem has a reason to be stronger (he’s more consistently shown to be and he has majority of the spirits) and consistently shows that strength, I think the heroes winning is plot convenience. Especially when we see the fighters miles away from Galeem and Dharkon as they are defeated and the fighters are just awkwardly standing there. Galeem and Dharkon also have reasons as to how they could have lost without the fighters doing much. They are constantly fighting each other and they are consistently shown to be the same strength while also consistently shown to be stronger than the fighters.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Why are you trying to use a bad ending as a base for not scaling when the true ending was both characters being beaten. True ending would hold priority.

 

[Keeweed]

Because the bad endings show that both Dharkon and Galeem can still easily instantly obliterate the fighters whenever they want, the true ending doesn’t show how they were defeated, and the true ending had Galeem release thousands to millions of spirits. How are fighters supposed to compare to someone due to spirits, if that person has hundreds to thousands times more of them. Also I was also talking about the beginning of the game where Galeem kills everyone making them spirits. How does adding any amount of spirits to the fighters help when Galeem killed both the fighters and all the spirits combined at the beginning of the game?

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

The bad endings aren't canon I believe? Even if they were, I don't think they have priority over the true ending.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Becauuuuse, you're using random arguments to get an advantage. First off, I don't care if there are two bad endings, they're still not as good as the true ending, the one the game wanted you to find? Secondly,

the true ending doesn’t show how they were defeated

So did you forget we pick the fighters and proceed to fight them? What do you mean we don't know how they were defeated, we literally fight them.

and the true ending had Galeem release thousands to millions of spirits. How are fighters supposed to compare to someone due to spirits, if that person has hundreds to thousands times more of them.

That right there is both headcanon and debatable at best. First off, nothing proved the spirits amped Galeem, because he's equal to Dharkon who has none? We don't even know if those spirits came from inside of Galeem, because the Dharkon bad ending displays Galeem being killed, and I see zero spirits coming out.

Also I was also talking about the beginning of the game where Galeem kills everyone making them spirits. How does adding any amount of spirits to the fighters help when Galeem killed both the fighters and all the spirits combined at the beginning of the game?

Because everyone he killed at the start weren't amplified, not the playable fighters, nor the soon to be spirits. When actually amped, they stood a chance. You're using non-amped vs amped.