Super Smash Bros. revision

[Antvasima]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Shadowbokunohero

What do you think?

 

[The_Smashor]

I noted that Master Hand would be 3-B due to being a fraction of base universal due to needing to copies of him needing to be absorbed by Galeem to do the 3-A feat. While most of the Master Hands are copies, the real Master Hand is among them and is equal or stronger than the copies.

 

[Eficiente]

Well, he can do the same without doing that in one bad ending and was going to do so again on its own in Sephy's trailer, so, we should dismiss that.

And Sephi is universal?

100%, but there is little reason for him to have a profile (aside from always having a place with a list of all the points as to why others don't scale to him, minus Cloud). If other staff agree for a profile then that's something, but let's not talk about it here.

 

[The_Smashor]

Technically we don't know if Galeem did the same in the bad ending. It seems to be something else, since Galeem does it in a flash of light and not with lasers.

 

[TheGatememer]

Galeem did the omnidirectional blast again, so its safe to assume he did.

 

[The_Smashor]

Not really. It's clearly a different attack, and while we see it go through a Galaxy, we don't have a statement that Galeem destroyed the universe that time, unlike with the lasers.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

As usual on this topic I disagree with everything Efi is proposing.
It’s all but stated that Master Hand created the Smash universe. You pretty much have to say you have to be spoon-fed information to not get it, when the Hand is outright called the source of creation in the smash universe by WoG, and the opening of Smash 64 confirming this.
Creation Trio have Low 2-C statements in their trophies and 3 out of 4 of them are summonable Pokemon.
Tabuu is also blatant. You’d have to completely ignore all context to assume Subspace isn’t a parallel universe. Which again, makes me assume you want to be spoon-fed information to accept it, which will affect more than just Smash.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

With Sephiroth, just a trailer feat. Doesn’t have a ton of relevancy. Ridley didn’t kill Mega Man, after all.

 

[Eficiente]

I figure you would say something like it and hopelessly hope you wouldn't. You would not be able to keep doing this if we had better rules about it, I already replied to most of it many, many times before over various threads you were a part of, I literally wasted hours responding to that stuff, but instead of debating back what I said on the matter you keep saying the same base stuff. I already made a blog with that stuff covered so it would be easier to see, you could have at least been on the same step as the people who thought my arguments there were new.

Not only that but there are parts where I honestly think you keep the debate long and maddening entirely on purpose, with exchanges we basically had like this

• You: Subspace is universe-sized.
• Me: Can you proof that?
• You: Subspace absolutely is universe-sized, no doubt about it.

For the Sephy stuff, it luckily doesn't matter but trailers do count, for Smash4 Sakurai replaced history for them and it's like saying that TF2's trailers don't matter. I hope this doesn't end on wanting to scale Supernova despite our strongest point of reference contradicting this, because that would be wrong.

 

[Eficiente]

@The_Smashor You're right, I think we did agree on it not being 100% that and being seemingly/presumably it. But one think most didn't notice it's that when Sephy slashes Galeem all their MHs get destroyed, so more to them not scaling and the thing Galeem did being his own.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Let’s see. Primordial void capable of storing the normal world inside it, as that was Tabuu’s plan. The definition of Subspace meaning a spacetime continuum (literally Google it) supports it. And subjugates a creator of a universe to be more apart of Subspace than itself.

Nah. Stops at a few stars.

 

[Eficiente]

Primordial void capable of storing the normal world inside it, as that was Tabuu’s plan.

No need to say vague things like "promordial void", I don't you talk like that in real life. If by world you mean universe then you can go ahead and prove it. The parts of reality Tabuu got inside it were pocket spaces inside bubbles way smaller than the space they had inside, Subspace can be of whatever size and still have anything inside it.

The definition of Subspace meaning a spacetime continuum (literally Google it) supports it.

It has "Sub"in it, which can mean of a lower level or position, and "space", that has no reason to be universe-sized. Subspace can also mean another space with no set size and a hypotherical spacetime continuum, which can also be of not set size. If you want subspace to be supporting evidence of something being universe-sized then you can make a thread to add that in the Universe page we have, I can disagree with you there.

And subjugates a creator of a universe to be more apart of Subspace than itself.

Is any other staff seeing this sh*t? Can somebody tell something to Cal?

 

[Jinsye]

You can quit being a dick, Efi.

Not 100% related but, Sephiroth definitely scales to the rest of the cast, we don't put Sonic much higher than everyone else because he nuked Tabuu's wings for example. Using Sephiroth's example is inconsistent.

Also Sephiroth's trailer is a direct contradiction to actual WoL and thus should be discarded, and his classic mode being a boss rush doesn't mean shit when you do the same boss rush in WoL.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You can quit being a dick, Efi.

It’s Efi. He won’t.

 

[Eficiente]

I am beyond tired of people focusing on me being a dick while being completely apathetic towards the reasons I'm not having a regular conversation. Should I have used more of my time to write down all of the points as to why what Cal said is wrong what would that have done? Cal already brought up MH creating the universe again when I told him to not do that to the debate, he may keep doing it over and over in this and other threads, do I always have to write down all my points 1 by 1 as if it were the first time I'm talking about them while never bringing up faults in others? It's annoying, I don't bring up faults for the lols but because I want them to stop. I see doing that as at least an attempt to bring up process as I know the context of the matter, I can't say the same for any random user calling me a dick, how does that help the wiki if the things that made me act like a dick are still there for anyone to suffer?

I'm saying all that fairly calm btw, as were my other comments. Just in case anyone may want to exaggerate them later.

 

[Eficiente]

Also to clarify, since the would-be exchange I made between Cal and I on Subspace would seen to be the most dick-ish thing there, it actually isn't. We genuinely did have an exchange that was 10 times worst than that (granted, with me do being a dick there, and Cal replying "This qualifies. Easily. You don’t have to be spoon fed everything. You know what’s not a pocket dimension? Subspace. It has more in line with a void." with no evidence). I said what I said because I know Cal can be overly casual and give no evidence at times, I wanted him to not do that here, and so I'm with little to no options on expressing that nicely, let alone when trying to be specific on what I want. What should have I wrote? "Please bring evidence to anything you want to claim"? I can write it with the tone of a robot but it still sounds pretty arrogant, and also I 100% don't believe that text would have made the job (pretty sure it didn't before more than once), it would have made me go in circles with at least Cal alone, assuming other users not jump on board too. I'm also 100% sure some are going to be apathetic on that last point, which I have reasons to believe may be the same people who have 0 problems calling me a dick on the sight of me appearing to be one without seeing any other problem.

With better control the whole matter would have been done for a couple of years ago instead of over many threads and with me losing my cool on the last one. The wiki needs to be that good, any random user starting on the wiki trying to do what I did would just live a nightmare (on how much debates matter anyway) and quitted while thinking horrible of us.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Why is this even being posted here? Stay on topic (this goes for both sides), dude calls someone a dick and they go into some entire explanation cycle, like tf?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I only agree with Eficiente about one part, googling actually gives me two definitions. Definition one gives me the definition of a pocket reality, space within space. And definition 2 basically just says Hypersleep dimension.

But I more or less partially agree with Cal on other things. If "Being the source of all creation" doesn't mean you created it, what else could it mean? The only other definition is that there's a substance or energy source that the entire universe/multiverse is made of with Master Hand being the very source of all of that.

And Saikou iirc didn't consider Master Hand Universal, but said the Pokemon creation trio still have Tier 2 descriptions canon to Smash about creating time and space. Furthermore, wasn't Subspace being described as "Infinite" or "Endless"? Though, he also brought up there is multiple examples not just trailers but in canon of Smash cast taking on god tiers on their own.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Furthermore, wasn't Subspace being described as "Infinite" or "Endless"? Though, he also brought up there is multiple examples not just trailers but in canon of Smash cast taking on god tiers on their own.

There was something described as "infinitely rendering space" but I think Eficiente argued in a previous thread it was contradicted? Don't quote me on that, the thread was a while back.

 

[Antvasima]

For what it is worth, I do not think that Eficiente has misbehaved here, and greatly appreciate that he is continuously making an effort to try to make the wiki more accurate as best as he is able. As such, I would also greatly appreciate if our members in general could leave him alone and not exaggerate everything he does into something considerably worse than it actually is.

That said, I tend to trust Medeus' sense of judgement.

 

[Eficiente]

If "Being the source of all creation" doesn't mean you created it, what else could it mean?

• This has to like at least the 3° time you misquoted that when I already told on all those times that it was just the source of creation.
• Taking that text as him creating the universe is peak headcanon:
  • It can far more reasonably mean that he's the one in this fighting game that sometimes sets ups characters and creates stages to make the fighters fight, or that he creates more stuff (stages) in the already existing universe, hence he's a being that creates things.​
  • Crazy Hand, the hand that represents the opposite, isn't some being who destroys universes, he isn't going to one day destroy the universe and has nothing to do with the literal concept of destruction, he just messes up the things MH creates, has a fighting style more destructive and the like, you know, like MH, but in a destructive way.​
  • MH just obtained his powers at one point, and the world of imagination was always portrayed as existing and being the place where the characters had their stories.​
• All the times I talked you about that text I also pointed out how it was a mistranslation, MH was only said to be An incarnation of creation that exists in the world of "Smash Bros." Him existing in Smash=/=Smash being said to have been a creation of his, and him being an incarnation of creation is vague AF but obviously means what we saw him do.
• This goes over what I said on Cal keeping the debate long and maddening; he has claimed that MH was stated to be the creator of the universe many times when he never was, we only had that wrong text and many others pretty much saying "this guy's mysterious, we don't know much about it". And again everytime it's talked about the world of imagination nothing is said about MH making it, it's just talked as if it were a place that always existed.

 

[Antvasima]

Eficiente seems to make some good points.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Anyway, smashers can't scale to supernova now, right?

 

[Eficiente]

And Saikou iirc didn't consider Master Hand Universal, but said the Pokemon creation trio still have Tier 2 descriptions canon to Smash about creating time and space.

We can debate who, if any, scale to it, but I had the rest preferably as a priority to keep things organized.

Furthermore, wasn't Subspace being described as "Infinite" or "Endless"? Though, he also brought up there is multiple examples not just trailers but in canon of Smash cast taking on god tiers on their own.

"There were 2"

• When making his army Tabuu found Mr. Game & Watch and discovered a never ending source of weird energy in him to keep making his army and that's that. I think some loose translation had it as him energy making Subspace but that doesn't make any sense.
• The cannon Bowser and Ganon had was hyperbolically said to be able to infinitely rending space but we saw it shoot once and it rend the area of an island only kilometres in front of it, if they kept firing that they would have only had the area of like 100 islands sent into Subspace and no other place where to shoot. And then again the big spaces sent into Subspace are inside far smaller bubbles.

Though, he also brought up there is multiple examples not just trailers but in canon of Smash cast taking on god tiers on their own.

This is what I got

• They can defeat MH in the first game
• They can defeat MH, CH, and Giga Bowser in the second
• They can defeat MH, CH and Tabuu in the 3°. Tabuu is fought by everyone, Ganon took some hit from him and Sonic broke his wings, but that weakened him. MH is stated to hold back and in story had Wario, Bowser and Ganon as his loyal minions. So far the scaling is bad, defeating MH doesn't count in this and other games, scaling to Tabuu who is stronger and was fought by everyone seems pretty odd and Giga Bowser is just kinda there
• They can defeat MH, CH and MH's stronger forms, does that mean he's not holding back anymore? We don't know, the CH that it made flee could have held back when that happens due to being on the same level as MH or he could have just left the cast have fun with MH via not caring/playing along if MH was still holding back if his new form. Likewise we don't know how MH comes back after being defeated on the games, if it's canon for that to have happened and if it's canon for many fighters to have done so, if they do return from the world of imagination to reality, as shown when you beat MH, then what makes them be in the world of imagination again? This may all just be MH going casual on everyone and pretending to be defeated to make a fun adventure of it. If they did beat MH before or if they're able to do so then why Wario, Bowser and Ganon follow MH in Brawl? And why is no one trying to go back to reality as Sakurai said was the main thing in Smash?
• The cast gets intimidated over having to defeat 10 MHs each, then Galeem one-shots the universe. Then small parts of the cast that get progressively bigger and with optional items to help them can beat MHs, Galeem, CHs, Darhkon, and the the latter 2 while they also hit each other at times. But in the middle of it the real MH went to easily defeat many clones of the cast. And in Sephy's trailer who knows how many of the cast is defeated with the rest harmed over Galeem and MHs just kinda doing nothing.

We were arguing over the cast scaling via Spirits, which I disagree with but that doesn't matter, but the idea of them scaling on their own to even MH is very bad, they do have feats but the context of some are questionable and the anti-feats are mostly very notable. I counted Classic mode when maybe I shouldn't have and dismissed defeating MH and CH due to the former holding back and the latter being on his level, he should also be holding back as he friendly teams up with MH, even when alone he most likely has a similar objective and would do as MH.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

There is no wrong text and I don’t know what Efi is talking about. Unless they official Nintendo to localizers translated wrong in both the NoA and the EU versions, not just in Brawl, but Sm4sh and the Brawl website, but somehow I doubt that random VSBW people will prove that inaccurate.
In everything I see, it says that Master Hand is THE embodiment of creation. Not AN, like Efi is saying. And it explicitly says of the universe on top of that. You’d have to outright be ignoring information to assume Master Hand didn’t create the World of Trophies, sticking to your own headcanon so much that you twist what’s given to you. We’ve had this conversation so much and I’ve repeated the same evidence so many times because you’re ignoring something that’s in your face. “Source of creation in the Smash Bros. universe” cannot be taken any other way unless you have an agenda to downgrade. Said to be the “manifestation of creative spirit” and the “master of our [Smash Bros] world” to support it alongside the literal first appearance of the Hand being shown bringing the fighters to life and creating the stages.

Obtained

Okay? And? Never says how he obtained it. Obtained doesn’t mean the Hand went on some journey to get the power in the universe. I can say “Arceus obtained the power of creation” and get the same meaning as canon, and and we know for a fact that nothing existed there. I could do the same for TOAA, Anu, Annoying Dog, etc. Obtained doesn’t disqualify anything. The Hand most likely obtained power by coming into existence. Speaking of most likely...

Most likely interpretation

This is untrue. It implies the characters already exist in their stories when we see Master Hand bringing them to life in the first place, even having replaced plushies with trophies.

Crazy Hand

And why not? Prove the text is wrong, because it outright says that Crazy hand is the manifestation of destruction. For all you know, Crazy Hand is destined to end it all someday. He doesn’t have to be going all Zeno and destroying universes to be a destroyer.

Place that always existed

It is literally never described that way. Ever. The most you get out of it is “In this world, trophies fight.”

And before someone says “you’re talking out of your ass” or something like that, here’s me being a good student and showing my work:

Master Hand

Master Hand is a hand-like entity who acts as the main recurring boss in the Super Smash Bros. universe. He appears at Final Destination as the final boss of the 1P Game in Super Smash Bros. and of Classic Mode in Super Smash Bros. Melee, Super...

www.ssbwiki.com

Crazy Hand

Crazy Hand is Master Hand's left hand counterpart first appearing in Super Smash Bros. Melee. While Master Hand's movements are very smooth and calm, Crazy Hand moves in erratic ways. Crazy Hand's basic appearance is exactly the same as Master...

www.ssbwiki.com

Smash Bros. DOJO!!

Smash Bros. DOJO!!

 

[Eficiente]

I'm gonna have to say again that you Cal wouldn't be able to keep doing this if we had better rules about our debates on the wiki. I already showed you the Jap. text for MH and a translation and you tried to dismiss it as google translater being unreliable in the last thread, I hoped you would have come to your senses about it or that you forgot about it like everyone made me say the same over and over again but you just bring up similar nonsense now. You need to prove the translation means what you claim about it, you cannot use the take I already pointed out to be a mistranslation just because one side of the puddle made up something and the other copied their work (the European version is a bit more correct and just says "in the Smash universe" but whatever). "There is no wrong text" holds no proof and "I don’t know what Efi is talking about" is you just wanting to make me look bad for the sake of it, you know full well what I'm talking about, you made comments like that all the time and I have to just eat it. All you have to do is to prove that the part of the text (『スマブラ』の世界に存在する創造の化身で、何もかもが謎に包まれている存在。) saying "that exists in" is wrong, which you can't because it's correct, but you don't do the job.

Said to be the “manifestation of creative spirit” and the “master of our [Smash Bros] world” to support it alongside the literal first appearance of the Hand being shown bringing the fighters to life and creating the stages.

I already went over this and you still don't care, MH creates things around, is very powerful and make Waro, Ganon and Bowser follow his will, none of that stuff matters.

Okay? And? Never says how he obtained it. Obtained doesn’t mean the Hand went on some journey to get the power in the universe. I can say “Arceus obtained the power of creation” and get the same meaning as canon, and and we know for a fact that nothing existed there. I could do the same for TOAA, Anu, Annoying Dog, etc. Obtained doesn’t disqualify anything. The Hand most likely obtained power by coming into existence.

After going over how the meaning of his existence and his goals are unknown and then going over how he obtained his powers it is reasonable that he didn't in fact got born with them, it's not impossible that he did but it's not what the wording implies.

This is untrue. It implies the characters already exist in their stories when we see Master Hand bringing them to life in the first place, even having replaced plushies with trophies.

That's your headcanon, in-game lore tells their story and Sakurai said how they had it, MH does the same as any character tapping a trophy to give it life, you made up that MH made their whole life and stories there and that it contradicts something.

And why not? Prove the text is wrong, because it outright says that Crazy hand is the manifestation of destruction. For all you know, Crazy Hand is destined to end it all someday. He doesn’t have to be going all Zeno and destroying universes to be a destroyer.

I very, very, very obviously meant based on what we know, without making headcanons like that. I meant that the real info we got on CH doesn't fit on the claims given to MH, since that as a point is a real thing anyone can say it doesn't matter what CH isn't (a Zeno).

In fact the stuff we know of CH fits with everything I said about MH

• "Where the Master Hand loves to create, his alter ego is impulsive and destructive, consumed with that hollow feeling which comes from destroying your own creations.": MH creates things and loves to do that and CH goes the other way. What you claimed was MH creating the universe due to him being the "source of creation" was just something said due to him loving to create things, and with CH being impulsive and destructive do you still support a headcanon like him being destined to end it all someday? He should have Galeem'd the universe already.
• "Seemingly a manifestation of the destructive spirit in direct contrast to Master Hand, who is the manifestation of the creative spirit.": MH is a being who loves to create things, if he has cosmic weird things they're only over the idea of him loving to create things, not the made up take of him having created the universe.

It is literally never described that way. Ever. The most you get out of it is “In this world, trophies fight.”

I did say "it's just talked as if" but you quoted my stuff short and made me look it up. The points is that it is talked about it and we're not told MH made it. It's talked about MH and we're not told he made the universe, it's talked about CH we're not told anything that would make us deduct MH made the universe. The same the other way around for CH and univeral destruction (it legit matters more the bombs he can throw at targets). We do have a lot of info on all of that, that headcanon is not part of it.

Smash Bros. DOJO!!

""Manifestation of creative spirit" in this world" and "manifestation of destructive spirit" supports everything I said. They just love to create and destroy and do so over and over, both are beings that exist in Smash, they're both in Smash.

 

[Antvasima]

I would appreciate if everybody calm down here, and try to not get upset at each other. That is the best way to reach agreements.

 

[Eficiente]

@DarkDragonMedeus @The_real_cal_howard Can you guys estimate a reasonable amount of time for my comments to be properly read and responded to? Emphasis on properly, I can wait with this and so there is no need to rush in to tackle it if that makes the replies not as good as they could be. I'm not gonna wait more than 2 months or so though.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I may after I get back from work. I leave in about 20 minutes or so.