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Super Smash Bros. revision

Eficiente

Eficiente

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Continuation from there, we agreed to at least something. The reasoning for MH being Low 2-C is wrong, another one was proposed but I'm yet to see how that would look in his profile, what evidence is going to be used to make that claim.

Let's get things one at a time, we should first go over the tiers of MH, CH, Tabuu, Galeem and Dharkon, fix their profiles and then maybe stuff like the fighters scaling.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @The_real_cal_howard
 
My opinion with Smash stuff remains:

-Fighters scale to MH and the other God tiers. There is absolutely, 100% no reason for them not to scale.

-The old reasoning for Master Hand was bad yes

-Scaling to the Creation Trio is legit. Ultimate makes it clear that Smash doesn't differentiate between the original version and the Smash version.

And also:

-Tabuu causing Subspace to collapse can work as a somewhat supporting feat. While the size of Subspace isn't mentioned, we know it's big enough to contain stars and shit and I don't really like acting like it's a small pocket world when it's more or less considered an alternate world to the main universe.

-While Galeem's feat was done through absorbing Master Hands, I still believe that the feat should scale to base Galeem. The Master Hands are clones created by Galeem's own power, not an outside power source. Given how Galeem does the same feat later on without any absorbing, I'd say that this is more of a feat needing time to charge. But that doesn't make it infinitely above base Galeem. So Galeem should backscale to his feat of destroying the universe. Dharkon also has his own feat of doing the exact same thing without any absorption.

-Galeem and Dharkon's feat is possibly 2-C. WoG implies Galeem might have nuked Bayonetta's alternate worlds too and Dharkon's World of Dark possesses two alternate dimensions. The main one and the Mysterious Dimension, both clearly cosmic-sized. If accepted, it should likely backscale to both again and thus make most chars Low 2-C, possibly 2-C (as the Low 2-C feats are casual, so no outlier here).
 
Saikou_The_Lewd_King said:
-Fighters scale to MH and the other God tiers. There is absolutely, 100% no reason for them not to scale.

-Scaling to the Creation Trio is legit. Ultimate makes it clear that Smash doesn't differentiate between the original version and the Smash version.

And also:

-Tabuu causing Subspace to collapse can work as a somewhat supporting feat. While the size of Subspace isn't mentioned, we know it's big enough to contain stars and shit and I don't really like acting like it's a small pocket world when it's more or less considered an alternate world to the main universe.

-While Galeem's feat was done through absorbing Master Hands, I still believe that the feat should scale to base Galeem. The Master Hands are clones created by Galeem's own power, not an outside power source. Given how Galeem does the same feat later on without any absorbing, I'd say that this is more of a feat needing time to charge. But that doesn't make it infinitely above base Galeem. So Galeem should backscale to his feat of destroying the universe. Dharkon also has his own feat of doing the exact same thing without any absorption.

-Galeem and Dharkon's feat is possibly 2-C. WoG implies Galeem might have nuked Bayonetta's alternate worlds too and Dharkon's World of Dark possesses two alternate dimensions. The main one and the Mysterious Dimension, both clearly cosmic-sized. If accepted, it should likely backscale to both again and thus make most chars Low 2-C, possibly 2-C (as the Low 2-C feats are casual, so no outlier here).
Click to expand...
-As I said, let's not go over it yet. If that's literally needed to for the scaling here then you can say so.

-The first sentence gives no evidence. The second is huge AF, whatever makes you feel that way I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that there's no evidence for it. Yes they're the same as they games from which they come from, but the Smash version of that, will I need to later be pointing out differences in Smash to the original sources? That wouldn't be a fun activity.

-It can be mentioned on a list of feats for anyone scaling to it, but not in their AP. Sorry but you're talking out of feeling there, if it was "more or less considered an alternate world to the main universe" then the feat would be likely/possibly Low 2-C, but that was never a thing, no ill will while saying this but you just felt that way. If anything Subspace being a weird place that Tabuu wanted to make bigger can be seen as suspicious in that regard, heck the stars could even be a result of the places sucked and fused into Subspace.

-I mean it's kinda like Esdeath absorbing her horse army, Galeem did them under who knows how much time, which we could say it wasn't long..but then why did he make them just to absorb them? I don't disagree with the second time Galeem did visually the same being said to be the same feat (the wording just doesn't have to lie in the profile), but Dharkon doesn't have a feat like it.

-I went over that here (and probably in the other thread too), the Purgatorio thing is beyond unreliable and even if it was, there's no evidence of it being a universe, I didn't even know there were "alternate worlds". For the other stuff, before saying anything I would like to see how do you propose their AP should say and link?
 
I'll leave this blog and this one for summarized references. But I already wrote my thoughts. But I'll copy and paste them here.

Reading over both blogs, they both do make solid points and attempts, but in the end; I think DatOneWeeb's blog makes more sense. While I do agree that, "Perceiving everyone else as toys" wouldn't automatically cut as someone existing on a plane of higher infinity nor the characters being sub-dimensional. Andy isn't Low 2-C via perceiving Buzz and Woody as toys much to Cal tried to imply a while back.

However, the "Smash World" is confirmed to be an "Alternate reality" created by Master Hand's imagination. Each fighter coming from alternate dimensions would mean they all come from either different bodies of space; whether it be pocket realities or universes. But it should be obvious that most of those Nintendo verses do indeed take place in actual universes and/or multiverses and not some random verses where "Their respective universes are just Tier 4 sized pocket realities". I even read and quoting something that was in Eficiente's blog about "Subspace being another reality". It's not just reality but A reality. Which means alternate reality means alternate universe.

Also, Saikou did discuss in detail that regardless of Master Hand and Crazy Hand being downgraded or the Smash fighters being upgraded, they really shouldn't be so far below them. And while Galeem and Dharkon are initially superior to entire armies of Master Hands and Crazy Hands. Weeb made a good argument about the spirits amping the party to fight against those bosses; meaning they'd scale via spirit amps if anything.
 
Eficiente said:
I'm yet to see how that would look in his profile, what evidence is going to be used to make that claim.

Let's get things one at a time, we should first go over the tiers of MH, CH, Tabuu, Galeem and Dharkon, fix their profiles
Click to expand...
 
Ooh, I forgot about this. So this is a Master Hand downgrade? If Galeem is universe level+, then so is Master Hand, because Galeem destroyed what Master Hand created, a universe. Is this also a Galeem downgrade? If so, then wasn't it said that Galeem's light took over the universe? If not, then there could downgrade for them.
 
@DarkDragonMedeus You said that the "Smash World" was confirmed to be an "Alternate reality" created by Master Hand's imagination, I don't agree with it but there may be stuff I missed to put all that together. How can you prove that claim? That would be the first sentence on MH's AP, and it matters even more than it.

Needless to say, I'll be against evidence that lies or needs further context not said on the profile to be understood.
 
Beings from Subspace, a different reality, can also get turned into trophies by an item called Thophy Stand, including Tabuu, whose more powerful than Master Hand, and with Thophy Stands aside all of them still have trophies.

Wasn't this in your blog?
 
Yes, but I himself don't take "different/alternate reality" as synonymous with universe-sized reality, because "different" and "alternate" don't put standards on the similarity of the things on which they may be used on, and "reality" doesn't necessarily mean universe. I remember how an academic made a book implying that "alternate reality" is synonymous with "universe" or something like it, but I respectfully disagree with that. I don't think he's any authority on the English language but I know what the individual words mean. Furthermore, a real person talking about an alternate reality puts as a standard for reality our universe and is likely to theorize about the common theory of alternate universes, whereas in fiction, where realities can have any size, talk about alternate realities may only be related to those realities of unknown size and not the theory of alternate universes/timelines, having their use of an alternate reality recontextualized.
 
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Anyway, that would have been on Tabuu's profile. The Smash World is a universe, but how do you know MH made it? Same question as before.
 
I agree with DatOneWeeb's blog. I'm pretty sure the Smash Cast would objectively be Low 2-C one way or another too. The Creation Trio acts as spirit amps for the fighters. They have Low 2-C descriptions from their trophies, so they should still be Low 2-C in some shape or form.

The one thing I massively disagree with though is Eficiente's argument about the "hierarchy" of Pokemon existing in Smash to somehow mean the Fighters don't get Low 2-C scaling. The Spirit Classes don't really reflect this, otherwise Deoxys, the Legendary Birds, Sky Forme Shaymin, Resolute Keldeo, 100% Zygarde, Mega Diancie, Zacian, Zamazenta, Mew, Ho-Oh, Celebi, Jirachi, Manaphy, and Victini would all have a higher Spirit Class than Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina. I doubt they really care that much about the power aspect if they fall that short.
 
@DarkDragonMedeus Can I ask you the favor to respond to this 2 users above? I may have made the thread but would be very irritated to respond them myself, what I wanted to accomplish here is unrelated.
 
I'm in agreement with Ploz here tbh. Also Alternate Reality in general context means parallel universe. Even Matt and Kepekley have agreed with those meaning universes generally speaking. Not saying that proves anything, but still. I know what you're saying, stuff like "Becoming reality" means absolutely nothing about creating universes. As become reality simply means becoming a part of reality as opposed to giving birth to an alternate reality.

Also, the wiki example isn't canon and also seems to take the vague text out of context. But Saikou brought up other details, and Dat still explained many other details fairly well. Not everything was flawless, but I personally thought it was making more sense of the two blogs.
 
Eficiente said:
@DarkDragonMedeus Can I ask you the favor to respond to this 2 users above? I may have made the thread but would be very irritated to respond them myself, what I wanted to accomplish here is unrelated.
Click to expand...
If the fighters are Low 2-C from different feats, that aids more things for Master Hand being Low 2-C as well. That's the reason I noted it. I don't think you're going to be able to have the discussion really without it being a point of contention right off the bat man, sorry.
 
As in, MH being Low 2-C is due to scaling and not his own feat?
 
Ah, considering previous frustrations I got on the matter, that motivates me a bit. In part because whatever the profiles may look like in the future, it will be due to real and reasonable feats anyone can come up with. I don't mind (as much) disagreeing the scaling and the like.
 
I don't particularly like how you agree with it while needing someone else to come and explain the feat, if you can't do it yourself then what are you agreeing with?
 
Eficiente said:
I don't particularly like how you agree with it while needing someone else to come and explain the feat, if you can't do it yourself then what are you agreeing with?
Click to expand...
I can explain why it's Low 2-C, but the thread has brought up both of your blogs. It's only fair to have Weeb involved as well if we're going over his blog, is it not?
 
I don't remember much about our old reasoning as it's been some time since I last participated in a Smash revision thread, but I find myself in agreement with Saikou, DDM, and Ploz.
 
Dang I wish I saw this earlier. I’m 100% against the smash characters scaling to MH and/or Galeem. Galeem literally one shots everyone in the verse combined as soon as he showed up and Master Hand curpstomps every fighter combined literally 10 seconds before the Final fight in Smash bros ultimate. They shouldn’t scale with spirits either as Galeem is the whole reason everyone all combined are spirits in the first place and MH stomps everyone at the very end of their journey. I’ve heard in canon MH likes to hold back while Galeem and Dharkon were busy fighting each other when the fighters fought them, so they’re reasons as to why the fighters could win without scaling.
 
Keeweed said:
Dang I wish I saw this earlier. I’m 100% against the smash characters scaling to MH and/or Galeem. Galeem literally one shots everyone in the verse combined as soon as he showed up and Master Hand curpstomps every fighter combined literally 10 seconds before the Final fight in Smash bros ultimate. They shouldn’t scale with spirits either as Galeem is the whole reason everyone all combined are spirits in the first place and MH stomps everyone at the very end of their journey. I’ve heard in canon MH likes to hold back while Galeem and Dharkon were busy fighting each other when the fighters fought them, so they’re reasons as to why the fighters could win without scaling.
Click to expand...
Master Hand doesn't curbstomp every fighter combined; he fights off hordes of clones of them that are likely weaker versions of the original fighters, considering that each of the fighters themselves can also take on multiple at once, at least with spirits equipped. Plus throughout the whole journey the fighters have been dealing with Master Hand clones that aren't confirmed to be weaker.

I don't see how Galeem turning everyone into spirits somehow means that equipping spirits doesn't give them sufficient power to harm them. Not sure how that point works.

I'm gonna have to ask you for a source for your claim on Master Hand holding back, and even then that still doesn't the Master Hand clones aren't fighting at their fullest. As for Galeem and Dharkon being distracted fighting each other, that's an irrelevant detail. Being distracted doesn't suddenly cause your durability to drop by the septillions and make you beatable to someone you were previously far stronger than. If you can beat someone through sheer AP, then your AP scales, whether they were distracted or not.
 
I'm not even sure it was ever stated Master Hand holds back a lot. Plus, Marth seemed confident each of the Smashers could take on 9 or 10 Master Hands individually; and it would be way out of character to boast about something trivial such as that.
 
It is very late where I live so I’m find the MH quote later.

When it comes the spirits, all the spirit were originally people, and Galeem one shots literally all of them combined. Having spirits shouldn’t help at all because Galeem is already shown to be stronger than literally everyone else in the entire verse combined. The fighters can’t even get all the spirits most of them are trapped in Galeem as shown by the end of the game so if spirit really could amp up the fighters to fight Galeem, Galeem still should have stomped because he had way more spirits than all the fighters combined.

As you just said you beat those clones with spirits, without spirits those clones can straight up one shot you if your unlucky. Your character barely manages to beat like 2 to 3 and that’s when those clones are fighting each other. Meanwhile Masterhand curpstomps a dozen of them dozens of times in a row.

What I meant by Galeem and Dharkon being distracted is that they just killed themselves and the fighters just lead to them doing that. For example it is like scp 3700. The SCP foundation does literally nothing to 3700-2 they just distract it and got both monsters killed. Same thing here: Galeem and Dharkon are trying to kill each other and the fighters make them kill both themselves.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I'm not even sure it was ever stated Master Hand holds back a lot. Plus, Marth seemed confident each of the Smashers could take on 9 or 10 Master Hands individually; and it would be way out of character to boast about something trivial such as that.
Click to expand...
I’ll need to watch the cutscene again but I remember him saying that practically out of desperation. He didn’t truly believe they could do that they just needed to or else they would die. I mean Pit says 5 seconds later that he absolutely knows they will win, but Galeem instantly proceeded to stomp literally everyone in the verse combined in a single attack, so I doubt any of them knew what they were talking about. Considering MH manages to curpstomp clones of literally all of them combined, I think it is safe to say they were overly optimistic.

Edit: Watched the cutscene mid way making the post, so if the beginning makes no sense now that’s why.

edit 2: it is very late where I live so I’ll be back tomorrow.
 
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Whistles I don't think the pinging message works. But I'll give input. I obviously still agree with Low 2-C and cast scaling. However, I do not think they should scale to Galeem. At least, not in base form, but with spirits only. Master Hand stomping the clones doesn't actually prove they're above, ever since Smash 64 there have been clones of the fighters, such as the polygon team. Those characters are far weaker and easier to launch, even with single attacks. Same can be done in Ultimate, the clones are not that strong.
 
Yeah, I don't think they're directly scaled from Galeem or Dharkon without amps, but with spirit amps yes they'd scale. Low 2-C comes from the descriptions of the Pokemon god being canon to Smash Bros based on what Saikou said.
 
@DatOneWeeb Do you still believe MH made the universe? And if so, can you make the wording and evidence that would go in his profile for it?
 
Ignoring what literally happens in the story to claim that the fighters with spirits don’t scale to Galeem/Dharkon is the biggest stretch I think I have seen in a CRT. You fight both individually and even both in a 3 way based on what route you have. The idea that the bosses were too busy fighting each other doesn’t make sense when they still attack you in the fight and can be harmed by you in all of the fights in story mode.
 
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